Slip to landing

[Cpt_Kirk]

You can slip in any flap config.

Another way to get down is to pitch down and dive toward the runway, then roundout a little higher and pitch up reducing speed. You will use a little more runway, but can accomplish the same thing if you create the skill to do it this way.

(let's see how fast the 'experts' attack this idea)

Know the right speed for approach for your plane, set it and trim for it, and then maintain it on final using power and drag to control glide path, not pitch/speed.

This. Exactly this.

This technique makes landings easier to understand, fly, and transfer to different aircraft. I've never had any issues since.. Even when flying a Mooney for the first time.

 

[RV10flyer]

You can slip with full flaps, question is do you have to. Rather than steepen the approach nose down, you can do the same nose up. Pull the throttle and pull the nose up until the stall horn is chirping, see what your rate of sink is, you'll be impressed, and you won't scare passengers. None the less, you should master slips. In the 172 with flaps 40 and a full on slip you may get an oscillation as dirty air from the wing hits the tail. This is a stable self correcting issue and is of no worry. You can slow a slip as slow as you want. When you reach the stall limit the low wing will lift, as that happens lift your foot off the rudder and push the nose down a bit.

I use the region of reverse command a lot in my -10 to lose altitude quickly. I have not tried combining slipping while severely behind the power curve. If one has full right rudder and left aileron as needed, is this not a recipe for a stall/spin on final? One may have more time to react since the high wing(right) will stall and drop. I will try that up high first. There is always new things to learn.

 

[RoscoeT]

I use the region of reverse command a lot in my -10 to lose altitude quickly. I have not tried combining slipping while severely behind the power curve. If one has full right rudder and left aileron as needed, is this not a recipe for a stall/spin on final?

Go up and try to spin it in this configuration at altitude.

 

[CTLSi]

This. Exactly this.

This technique makes landings easier to understand, fly, and transfer to different aircraft. I've never had any issues since.. Even when flying a Mooney for the first time.

The entire standard landing sequence is reduce rpm on the numbers at PA on downwind, set landing config flaps, pitch down all the way to roundout, coordinate turns (ball center), turn final on extended centerline, gear down (if not fixed), speed over threshold at 1.3 x Vs, roundout, sink into ground effect, nose up near stall, touch mains first, slow to taxi speed before allowing nosewheel full pressure.

One more fun tip. You should be at half pattern altitude at mid base while maintaining the speed you want when you reach the threshold.

 

[RV10flyer]

Go up and try to spin it in this configuration at altitude.

I think I will. I have never tried it in any plane. I was trained to keep my speed up/nose down while slipping.

 

[RoscoeT]

The entire standard landing sequence is reduce rpm on the numbers at PA on downwind, set landing config flaps, pitch down all the way to roundout, coordinate turns (ball center), turn final on extended centerline, gear down (if not fixed), speed over threshold at 1.3 x Vs, roundout, sink into ground effect, nose up near stall, touch mains first, slow to taxi speed before allowing nosewheel full pressure.

Boy that ink wet PPL certificate really makes you think you invented the concept of flying doesn't it?

 

[James331]

I use the region of reverse command a lot in my -10 to lose altitude quickly. I have not tried combining slipping while severely behind the power curve. If one has full right rudder and left aileron as needed, is this not a recipe for a stall/spin on final? One may have more time to react since the high wing(right) will stall and drop. I will try that up high first. There is always new things to learn.

You're flying in reverse on decent in a turbine?

Anyway a slip is not going to spin if you're stepping on the high wing, common misconception.

 

[James331]

Hi Aviator Cew. Welcome to the Blue Board.

I used to own a C-172G (1966). I slipped it with full flaps (40 degrees) until I read in the POH I wasn't supposed to be doing that. I thought it was because the relative wind on the flaps during an aggressive slip might damage the flap tracks, so I quit. I never experienced the oscillation. I fly a C-150 now and slip it with full flaps if I need to. You can also do S turns to help when you are high. Fly with your CFI and let him/her show you how before you try it yourself, or go up to altitude and try it.

Could you show me where slips with 40 flaps is prohibited in the POH.

 

[James331]

Slips are a needed, not just comming too high.

Land on a short field with trees, slip and full flaps is the safe and prudent thing to do.

 

[RV10flyer]

You're flying in reverse on decent in a turbine? Interesting, never knew that either. Thanks.

Anyway a slip is not going to spin if you're stepping on the high wing, common misconception.

Appreciate the info.

 

[mrindian]

Slips are fun! I have a C177B the poh allows slips in all flap configs. I'll purposely stay at pa on final then dump full flaps and rudder pedal to the floor for fun. It's good to see what you can do in your plane and watch you vert speed hit 1500-2000 fpm

It's fun to see your passengers reaction. I'll ask them if they are ready for fun first though. Then when they see the runway out the side window ........

The other thing to practice is I'll pull power abeam to the tower turn base at the end of the runway and shoot for the numbers. Even with no power I'll still Need to slip. Beats performing a 747 approach. And keeps you on your toes

G.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[txflyer]

I slipped one time and tail stalled and crashed and died but I came back to tell ya'll don't slip with full flaps because that **** will kill ya!

 

[Henning]

One aircraft I did a lot of full flap slips in was the da20. That is a pretty slick little trainer. The first notch of flaps doesn't add any drag that I could tell. Full flaps might have added some drag, but not much. (Chop the power abeam the numbers and you can just about do a full pattern.)

Anyway, slips in the da20 and full flaps are fun never really felt the need to slip a 172 though. Same for the bonanza .. Lots of drag with full flaps...

DA-20 I used to have to throw a slip in over the threshold to keep from floating halfway down the runway if the approach had any steepness at all to it. Even flying 1.2Vso on the PAPI had me flaring over the threshold and touching on the ILS markers. I think I scared one CFI doing it on a check out doing a 'short field landing', but he liked how short we got in with only normal/light braking.

 

[Henning]

I use the region of reverse command a lot in my -10 to lose altitude quickly. I have not tried combining slipping while severely behind the power curve. If one has full right rudder and left aileron as needed, is this not a recipe for a stall/spin on final? One may have more time to react since the high wing(right) will stall and drop. I will try that up high first. There is always new things to learn.

No, a skidding condition is required for a spin, in order for a slip to turn to a skid, the low wing has to come through level and over the plane. As the wing comes up, if you release the rudder, it stabilizes wings level.

I didn't mean to suggest riding a slow full slip to increase rate further, if those rates are required it's time to go around. Rather it was meant to address his concerns about what happens at the bottom end of the energy envelope in a slip. Most people cram the nose down when they are in a slip and build this big pile of extra energy that they then have to get rid of somehow, well that's either down the runway or back up in the air. Neither is the result you're looking for when you entered the slip. The slip should not change your airspeed, the slip should be done with neutral trim and inputs in the roll and yaw axis, let the trim handle the speed. This is why you always need to be in correct trim for your desired speed. When you add the drag of the slip, the plane will have to steepen its descent to maintain the trimmed speed.

You do not fly an airplane, an airplane flies itself, you guide it to do what you want my managing its energy. The more stable you keep your kinetic energy on final, the easier you're going to find making good landings. The key to keeping energy stable is to always be in proper trim.

 

[Henning]

The entire standard landing sequence is reduce rpm on the numbers at PA on downwind, set landing config flaps, pitch down all the way to roundout, coordinate turns (ball center), turn final on extended centerline, gear down (if not fixed), speed over threshold at 1.3 x Vs, roundout, sink into ground effect, nose up near stall, touch mains first, slow to taxi speed before allowing nosewheel full pressure.

One more fun tip. You should be at half pattern altitude at mid base while maintaining the speed you want when you reach the threshold.

Sounds like the instructions in MSFS.

 

[FastEddieB]

Land on a short field with trees, slip and full flaps is the safe and prudent thing to do.

That's my m.o. - clear the trees, then slip into the roundout.

Though it's hard to discern the magnitude of the slip from my head-mounted camera, here's an example, landing at my old home base of Blue Ridge Skyport in N GA: http://youtu.be/sjlU_JlvDIQ.

Fast forward to about 6 minutes. Being mostly a FL pilot, fying an angled final was something I had to get used to as well.

 

[RV10flyer]

Thanks Henning. Just when I thought I had tried everything.

 

[flyingron]

40 degrees are a great tool that must be used carefully. If your flying a heavy loaded airplane or on a really hot day or and/or up high , 30 or less and slipping is much safer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQFXHEmmHUM

His statement is at odds with the FAA opinions on the subject and I don't buy that you give up the best landing configuration just because I pilot can't cram the throttle and carb heat in and reach over and raise the flaps on go around.

 

[bnt83]

His statement is at odds with the FAA opinions on the subject and I don't buy that you give up the best landing configuration just because I pilot can't cram the throttle and carb heat in and reach over and raise the flaps on go around.

I've come to the conclusion that full flaps may not be the best landing configuration, depending on loading and idiosyncrasies of the airplane. Some airplanes with two people in them are downright difficult to land with full flaps without three pointing them. Instead of applying unneeded loads to the nose gear structure, I'll just fly the approach with a reduced flap setting and get the nose up out of the way during flare.

The long history of Cardinals with damaged firewalls is a pretty good example of it.

The 1968 Cardinal in particular is so far behind the power curve with full flaps that any wind shears, down drafts etc in the summertime get . Power-off approaches with full flaps (engine out practice) is almost impossible to arrest the decent get the nose up and grease it on. It seems a lot more like youtube videos of helicopter auto-rotation. 10 to 20 degrees is much more forgiving and controllable.

The Cessna 150 with manual flaps is what I learned in, it didn't seemed to mind what flap settings you used. Not to mention it was a blast to be on short final still @ 800 feet pull power to idle, nose up to about 60 MPH yank 40 flaps. I miss that.

 

[bullwinkle]

I learn from people when they offer information that is factual, practical, and applicable.

The 'self described' experts on these boards that offer their personal opinions, bigotry, ignorance and patronizing insults as a substitute for aviation knowledge are both frauds, and destructive.

I can tell the difference, can you?

Sure, my comments to you show that I can indeed tell the difference.

I think I'll take Ron Levy's factual, practical, and applicable information over your personal opinions, bigotry, ignorance and patronizing insults.

 

[MAKG1]

I never had any problem landing a 177RG with full flap. Being behind the power curve means you let it get too slow, and that's not much fun 'cause you can't see the runway on short final with the nose that high.

The RG with two adults up front has an excessively forward CG. I find I need 90 lb ballast in rear cargo in that configuration. Your symptoms sound consistent with this.

 

[FastEddieB]

I never had any problem landing a 177RG with full flap.

Ditto.

1.3xVso should yield plenty of margin and energy for a successful flare with full flaps.

I do recall that in a P210 at the forward limit was a bit hard to get and keep the nose up on landing. Hence one of the very few cases it found just a tad of power left in helped.

 

[bullwinkle]

The CT slips fine with full flaps (40°). The only problem is the airplane tends to pick up speed unless you actively manage the pitch (I'm full nose up trim on approach so there is no trim left to add). I have to pull back somewhat on the stick and keep an eye on the airspeed. If I do that it's a pretty good elevator ride.

My CFI buddy with a DA-20 says he has to do the same thing when slipping. Maybe it's a common thing with slippery airplanes?

 

[bnt83]

I never had any problem landing a 177RG with full flap. Being behind the power curve means you let it get too slow, and that's not much fun 'cause you can't see the runway on short final with the nose that high.

The RG with two adults up front has an excessively forward CG. I find I need 90 lb ballast in rear cargo in that configuration. Your symptoms sound consistent with this.

Ever flown a 150 horse cardinal? Its about 50 pounds lighter in the nose than 177B, probably even more than 177RG. Ain't worth dragging a boat anchor in the back to make it easier to flare.

 

[Matthew]

CFIs - are most of your students scared/nervous about slips to a landing? Just wondering. I never was, I understood what was happening and why, and probably ended up doing more slips during training than really necessary, just because I liked having that kind of control.

 

[MAKG1]

Ever flown a 150 horse cardinal? Its about 50 pounds lighter in the nose than 177B, probably even more than 177RG. Ain't worth dragging a boat anchor in the back to make it easier to flare.

No, I haven't flown any fixed gear Cardinal. Only the RG.

While I understand the balance issues are going to be different, rear cargo is more than twice as far from the CG than the nose, so you'll need a difference much larger than 50 lb, even assuming all that 50 lb was in the spinner. Remember, it's moment, not weight.

The symptoms you describe sound a lot like excessively forward CG. Not having seen your W&B, I can't comment on whether it really was excessively forward CG.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I slipped one time and tail stalled and crashed and died but I came back to tell ya'll don't slip with full flaps because that **** will kill ya!

Nahaaaaa, not these guys. They are real pros. Over and over again when I learned ( in a taildragger) and checked out in larger taildraggers...... Do not slip in a full flap configuration and... Do not screw with the flaps in a turn.....ever. I doubt if most of them have ever seen a 180 much less flown one. Why you would need to slip with flaps like a 170B or a 180 is beyond me.

 

[Aviator_Cew]

Thanks guys for all the replies. Slipping with flaps is
something that I want to be more comfortable with, so I think
that next time out I'll get a little altitude dump all the flaps and see how it feels.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Sounds like the instructions in MSFS.

DING DING DING....finally we have a winner

 

[txflyer]

Nahaaaaa, not these guys. They are real pros. Over and over again when I learned ( in a taildragger) and checked out in larger taildraggers...... Do not slip in a full flap configuration and... Do not screw with the flaps in a turn.....ever. I doubt if most of them have ever seen a 180 much less flown one. Why you would need to slip with flaps like a 170B or a 180 is beyond me.

C-170's (some of them anyway) have POH statements not to slip with full flap.

A sudden pitch down can occur.

My C-180G POH says "full flaps not recommended for X-winds" Slips are unnecessary with the barn door flaps, but if you wanted to do it, your sink rate might go well over 1000f.p.m. You better be ready ...

 

[MAKG1]

C-170's (some of them anyway) have POH statements not to slip with full flap.

A sudden pitch down can occur.

My C-180G POH says "full flaps not recommended for X-winds" Slips are unnecessary with the barn door flaps, but if you wanted to do it, your sink rate might go well over 1000f.p.m. You better be ready ...

I certainly believe that.

In a 182, I've been able to slow to 60 KIAS on a straight in with full flap, pull the power to idle, and get some massive sink, easily over 1000 FPM.

Nevertheless, over the weekend, a CAP pilot (I was right seat) needed a huge slip with flaps all the way out to make a landing. Screw up. If he went any lower in that slip, I'd have called a go-around. The approach wasn't all that stable, and I probably should have called it anyway. And it was a 6000 foot runway, so he could have touched down at the 1000 foot marker instead of the numbers….

 

[48dodge]

CFIs - are most of your students scared/nervous about slips to a landing? Just wondering. I never was, I understood what was happening and why, and probably ended up doing more slips during training than really necessary, just because I liked having that kind of control.

The first few lessons doing them I was pretty uneasy. Especially doing full left aileron and right rudder. Now I think they're fun. I haven't done a slip with any flaps other than the small one while in a flare in a crosswind. I do either a slip or flaps or go around. I do want to try them out though.

 

[txflyer]

Slips are a great tool that like any tool should be used specifically for what it's intended for.

Watching the J-3's slip down at Reklaw is awesome.

 

[James331]

CFIs - are most of your students scared/nervous about slips to a landing? Just wondering. I never was, I understood what was happening and why, and probably ended up doing more slips during training than really necessary, just because I liked having that kind of control.

Not really, I introduce slips on the first flight, just standard practice after that.

I use the region of reverse command a lot in my -10 to lose altitude quickly.

RV10, I didnt understand what you meant by "reverse command"?

 

[whifferdill]

Nevertheless, over the weekend, a CAP pilot (I was right seat) needed a huge slip with flaps all the way out to make a landing. Screw up. If he went any lower in that slip, I'd have called a go-around. The approach wasn't all that stable, and I probably should have called it anyway. And it was a 6000 foot runway, so he could have touched down at the 1000 foot marker instead of the numbers….

Power off slip to land on the numbers seems like good aircraft control to me. I do that every landing and would rather see that than the usual mile long dragged in approach that floats for 1500' before touchdown. Many seem to view slips as mistake correction. I simply view it as aircraft control, and a way to consistently put the airplane exactly where you want without relying on power. I see it as a pilot skill rather than a mistake....a skill that few these days seem fully comfortable and competent with.

Everything's relative, I guess, regarding descent rate and technique. I see over 3,000' FPM coming down in the Pitts, and start removing the slip a few feet from the runway. Done several thousand that way. I think you'd be calling for a go-around as soon as I turned base.

 

[bnt83]

Power off slip to land on the numbers seems like good aircraft control to me. I do that every landing and would rather see that than the usual mile long dragged in approach that floats for 1500' before touchdown. Many seem to view slips as mistake correction. I simply view it as aircraft control, and a way to consistently put the airplane exactly where you want without relying on power. I see it as a pilot skill rather than a mistake....a skill that few these days seem fully comfortable and competent with.

Everything's relative, I guess, regarding descent rate and technique. I see over 3,000' FPM coming down in the Pitts, and start removing the slip a few feet from the runway. Done several thousand that way. I think you'd be calling for a go-around halfway down final.

 

[bullwinkle]

Not really, I introduce slips on the first flight, just standard practice after that.



RV10, I didnt understand what you meant by "reverse command"?

The "region of reverse command" is also called the "backside of the power curve". It's the part of the flight envelope where the lift/power curve for the airplane is so poor that even adding additional power might not be enough to increase speed or arrest a sink. This usually occurs very close to stall speed and/or at high angles of attack.

In other words, things can be "reversed" in that you go to full power and your sink rate continues to increase or speed continues to decay. Slow flight is usually performed at the edge of the backside of the curve, for example, where very large throttle movements are required to generate small changes in speed or positive climb.

 

[Henning]

The 'area of reverse command' is where your energy level is such that if you pull back you will sink faster. This occurs as you slow through L/D Max- Best Glide. Above that speed you have enough excess kinetic energy that an increase in AoA will transfer into climb. Once you are below that speed, you have no excess energy and any increase in AoA will just increase drag and increase rate of descent that must be countered by adding energy from the engine. You have to add power to slow down on the same vertical path, that is the 'area of reverse command.'

 

[James331]

Fancy

I've always just called it the back side of the power curve.

 

[comanchepilot]

In any plane?

Just curious, do you speak from experience?

In any case, the 1978 C172 POH suggests...

"Steep slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 20°..." And then goes on to explain why.

Have you routinely slipped a C172 with more than 20° of flaps, and if so, how troublesome or unnerving did you find the elevator oscillations? I have, and did not really care for the way the yoke started jerking around in my hand, and avoided full flap slips in most high wing Cessna's going forward.

Again, interested in your experience here.

This comes up over and over again and if the op is flying Skyhawks older than 1990 he needs to read the POH and understand it - most of the Cessna's that have this restrictions are placarded as well.

Which is why if you need to slip in a 172 the 'take it full flaps to the chip' is the way to increase the descent rate to 1000fpm. If you are decent stick you can increase the rod to 1500fpm by taking the flaps up and taking it to the chip - that thing drops like a rock racing a steinway piano to the ground . . .

Be careful because you'll need to lower the nose to recover enough to land . . . so timing becomes critical to getting the flaps in - hence the good stick comment - cause flaps up to the stall to flaps full would result in a drop of the nose and then the flare. . . .