Slip to landing

Greg Bockelman said:
I don't know how many, a few or a lot, but there are some that have actual rudder pedals and CAN be slipped.
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That is correct -- my buddy Charley has an Alon Aircoupe with rudder pedals. But I was talking about the statement that there are some planes which must be landed in a slip. I said that other than in a crosswind, there is no airplane which requires being slipped to land, and even in a crosswind, there are some (those with castering mains) which still don't need to be slipped. Obviously, the Ercoupes without rudder pedals cannot be slipped at all, but that's not germane to the discussion about whether there's a plane which must be always be slipped even without a crosswind.
 
PaulS said:
Help me out with reverse command. I would think using this method a hundred or so feet above the ground could be hazardous to your health if you encountered an unanticipated wind gust, or shear???
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It could indeed, which is why the FAA recommends (in the absence of a POH recommendation otherwise) a speed of 1.3 Vs0 on final (or maybe 1.15-1.2 Vs0 for short field landings). I don't know of any production certified plane in which that would put you in the region of reversed command.
 
I know one thing I had drummed into my head by my instructor during my training was never, ever dive the plane towards the runway. If you're in a rush to get on the ground, one of these days you're going to get there the hard way.
Most of my training if I was too high I had to work out the right combination of flaps and power to get the plane on the glide slope. If I couldn't get it down with power & flaps in a controlled manner without diving it at the runway, I'd better be ready to do a go around.
We didn't add slips in until I'd gotten very comfortable using the flaps/throttle and performing go arounds.

Obviously not saying what's right or wrong (only had my license for a month, I don't know enough to say what the right way to do things is and won't for a long time), just saying how I was trained.
 
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RoscoeT said:
I had to look up ORM - CAP speak. Slipping at low altitude...100'?? affects "operational risk management"?

You fit the negative stereotypes associated with the CAP like a greased bearing.
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If you say so…you might want to understand how CAP actually works, as you clearly haven't looked.

What would you think of a 135 or 121 operator who did this? CAP is not a bunch of weekend warriors showing off their flying prowess. The role of the mission pilot is as a "bus driver." There is a time for proficiency training, and it's not when you have a green trainee in the back seat.

Yes, maneuvering at low altitude when it is not necessary represents additional operational risk. There is much less opportunity for correction.

Think like a pro. Not a show-off. Protect the assets you are entrusted with (remember, that $500K airplane is NOT yours) and your passengers (though not in that order). If things are going south, break the accident chain. It doesn't prove a pilot has cojones for him to force a landing unnecessarily. Quite the opposite, actually. And those 182s are workspaces. The right and back seats are quite busy through most of the flight. It's not a joy ride.
 
bnt83 said:
Ercoupe!

If you call yourself an aviation enthusiast you should be ashamed of yourself. :lol:
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Levy is this sites senior troll. He panics when he gets caught being wrong, watch him...
 
One risk in some aircraft is the POH says not so slip more than N-minutes or to slip with a certain wing down. Basically the gas run away to the outer part of the wing and suddenly you have a new problem.

I have that in my POH, but with the big flaps on the -35 (and the 172), I just don't see a need to do a lot of slipping in either model.
 
CTLSi said:
Levy is this sites senior troll. He panics when he gets caught being wrong, watch him...
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Mr. Dim, the question was - which airplanes REQUIRE a slip to land.

You calling Ron a troll is like Paris Hilton calling Janet Reno a trashy attention whore.
 
Fredbob711 said:
We didn't add slips in until I'd gotten very comfortable using the flaps/throttle and performing go arounds.
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Quite the opposite with my guys, slips are more important to learn, a chimp can push a button and drop flaps, knowing how to slip is manadatory, flaps fail, slips don't.
 
I don't bother with slips or flaps. I just push the "land" button. If I'm too high, I hold the "land" button a little longer.
 
Ron Levy said:
The region of reversed command is defined by whether it takes more power to maintain constant vertical speed at a lower airspeed, not what happens when you add power. Even in that region, if you are in a stabilized condition, adding power will still reduce your sink rate (or increase your climb rate) at the same speed. If it takes 1700 RPM to maintain altitude at 65 knots but 1800 to maintain altitude at 63 knots, you're in the region of reversed command. If your speed isn't stable, you can't tell by throttle movement whether you're in that region or not.
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Yes, sorry if I was unclear or my explanation was incorrect.
 
brian];1557109 said:
One risk in some aircraft is the POH says not so slip more than N-minutes or to slip with a certain wing down. Basically the gas run away to the outer part of the wing and suddenly you have a new problem.
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I've seen that regarding rolling takeoffs with a turn onto the runway, but never for a final approach to landing. Can you point out a specific example?
I have that in my POH, but with the big flaps on the -35 (and the 172), I just don't see a need to do a lot of slipping in either model.
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Can you cite the specific language in your POH? I'd be interested to see it.
 
The land button? Oh, there it is....I am gonna use it on the next landing.
 
PaulS said:
Help me out with reverse command. I would think using this method a hundred or so feet above the ground could be hazardous to your health if you encountered an unanticipated wind gust, or shear???
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I used to slip down to the flare in a Cessna 120 (slip and kick) purd near all the time - that's how you got down after clearing the trees at the end of the runway with no flaps. No big deal.
 
Ron Levy said:
I've seen that regarding rolling takeoffs with a turn onto the runway, but never for a final approach to landing. Can you point out a specific example?
Can you cite the specific language in your POH? I'd be interested to see it.
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Never saw it in a POH, but had the fuel pickup unport in a Cessna 120. You quickly learn to not slip into a low tank.
 
I read the forums for education and entertainment. These strings with both are great.:D

As an aside, the round engine taildraggers sort of require a slip or a curving final until pretty low (depends on runway width) if you want to see the runway. Lining up 100ft high won't cut it on narrow runways. (75ft or less). Typically I line up over the fence and I am well below 100ft - more like 20. Once you line up you can only see the edges close by anyway, not down the runway.
 
Ron Levy said:
I've seen that regarding rolling takeoffs with a turn onto the runway, but never for a final approach to landing. Can you point out a specific example?
Can you cite the specific language in your POH? I'd be interested to see it.
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Well, as much as you've indirectly helped me over the years, any guidance on this one would be appreciated.

Attached is the page from the poh. I was told this was to keep the fuel from porting to the outer wing.
 

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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I used to slip down to the flare in a Cessna 120 (slip and kick) purd near all the time - that's how you got down after clearing the trees at the end of the runway with no flaps. No big deal.
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Not asking about slipping, I asked about reverse command, or purposely putting the plane on the backside of the power curve on short final to lose altitude. Seems very risky to me, which some have agreed. I think slipping is much safer.....
 
PaulS said:
Not asking about slipping, I asked about reverse command, or purposely putting the plane on the backside of the power curve on short final to lose altitude. Seems very risky to me, which some have agreed. I think slipping is much safer.....
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I can get the Pitts to come down faster in a slip than in a full stall falling leaf with the stick held on the aft stop. Full stall comes down about 2,800 FPM. I can get about 3,400 FPM in a slipping turn.
 
whifferdill said:
I can get the Pitts to come down faster in a slip than in a full stall falling leaf with the stick held on the aft stop. Full stall comes down about 2,800 FPM. I can get about 3,400 FPM in a slipping turn.
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So slipping seems better all around, thanks.
 
PaulS said:
So slipping seems better all around, thanks.
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As far as max descent rate goes, I think that depends on the airplane. But I've never been in a situation where I thought there would be some practical value in doing a falling leaf descent other than for the pure helluvit. I know a couple RV-9 pilots who say riding the stall is a good way to get down. I can see that airplane coming down faster in a stall than in a slip. Some do it down to very low altitude. Everybody has different abilities and comfort level. If you're gonna ride the stall, leave yourself enough altitude to recover should your engine stumble when you go to put the power back in. ;)
 
brian];1557368 said:
Well, as much as you've indirectly helped me over the years, any guidance on this one would be appreciated.

Attached is the page from the poh. I was told this was to keep the fuel from porting to the outer wing.
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Thank you -- that's a new one for me.

Of course, that is unrelated to flap position, and it's unlikely that someone would need to slip more than 30 seconds on final unless they really screwed up the approach, in which case they probably should go around and set it up better the next time. But it's certainly one anyone flying that type should know and obey.
 
Ron Levy said:
Thank you -- that's a new one for me.

Of course, that is unrelated to flap position, and it's unlikely that someone would need to slip more than 30 seconds on final unless they really screwed up the approach, in which case they probably should go around and set it up better the next time. But it's certainly one anyone flying that type should know and obey.
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Agreed, and if can't get into position by pattern altitude, it's a go around, landings aren't meant to saved.
 
brian];1557109 said:
One risk in some aircraft is the POH says not so slip more than N-minutes or to slip with a certain wing down. Basically the gas run away to the outer part of the wing and suddenly you have a new problem.

I have that in my POH, but with the big flaps on the -35 (and the 172), I just don't see a need to do a lot of slipping in either model.
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Yep, you have the aerobatic cell tanks by now I'm sure, at low power they should keep you ported all the way down final if you really want. I don't usually transition from crab to slip in a crosswind until 100' or so. If you are going to hold a really long slip, just switch to your high wing tank.
 
Henning, I think I see where you are going. The original fuel bladders have been replaced. Sounds like the older ones may have allowed the fuel to move around more. I'll have to check into that one with the bonanza gurus...


Other than kicking the rudder at the last minute for landing, I really can't think of a time when I've had to do a slip in the Bo. Like the 172, the flaps produce a lot of drag and a good vertical descent. Now that da20 I used to rent- yeea haa!
 
brian];1557519 said:
Henning, I think I see where you are going. The original fuel bladders have been replaced. Sounds like the older ones may have allowed the fuel to move around more. I'll have to check into that one with the bonanza gurus...


Other than kicking the rudder at the last minute for landing, I really can't think of a time when I've had to do a slip in the Bo. Like the 172, the flaps produce a lot of drag and a good vertical descent. Now that da20 I used to rent- yeea haa!
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Your fuel bladders have within them another bladder box with a flapper. This holds fuel at the pick up when gravity takes the rest to the outside.
 
comanchepilot said:
This comes up over and over again and if the op is flying Skyhawks older than 1990 he needs to read the POH and understand it - most of the Cessna's that have this restrictions are placarded as well.
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It's mentioned in the POH of my 1998, but is not prohibited.

Based on what Ron is saying, I'd imagine that Cessna left it there for liability reasons.
 
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Henning said:
:confused: float planes most definitely need a slip in a crosswind.
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Are floats designed to support the entire (or nearly) aircraft weight in a one-float-down slip that is held until the up-wing stalls?
 
teejayevans said:
Agreed, and if can't get into position by pattern altitude, it's a go around, landings aren't meant to saved.
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About 40 years ago, the Navy had a great flying safety poster showing the bits and pieces of what had once been an A-4 Skyhawk laid out in their approximate relative locations in the shape of an A-4 on the floor of a hangar. The caption was: “There is no approach which cannot be salvaged.”
 
Here it is, in case anyone asks:

C-172G_flapslip_zps333d22bb.jpg

__________________
Jeff Jacobs
C172N-180
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Here you go, James331. Jeff was kind enough to post this in another similar thread
 
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That was the way I remembered it Jaybird, although my memory ain't what it used to be :) . I was glad Jeff posted the page for me to re-post here and that it included the P-word as I remembered. He also posted interesting info from the Bill Johnson, Cessna test pilot on what happened if you did slip the older C-172's with full flaps. A little more than just a minor oscillation, apparently, although I never had it happen to me.
 
"Normal landings are made power off with any flap setting". :eek:
 
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