slip to landing and speed

I think it's in my POH not to slip with full flaps, but I'll have to confirm that.
Many 172 POH's say to avoid slipping with flaps. It's just a suggestion, not a limitation, and the reason has nothing to do with a tailplane stall. It's about this oscillation, which is fairly benign .although potentially disturbing if you don't know about the possibility. Just remember that it's limited to the 172, and if it ever happens, just kick out of the slip and it stops.
 
If your plane slips well (enough rudder) the extra drag causes the need to drop the nose a bit to keep sufficient airspeed to avoid stalling. Most people error by just releasing the control inputs and not raising the nose as you release the slip and they zoom toward the runway and pick up a bunch of speed. I learned in a 150 also and currently fly a Citabria with no flaps.
 
If your plane slips well (enough rudder) the extra drag causes the need to drop the nose a bit to keep sufficient airspeed to avoid stalling. Most people error by just releasing the control inputs and not raising the nose as you release the slip and they zoom toward the runway and pick up a bunch of speed. I learned in a 150 also and currently fly a Citabria with no flaps.

Not if you are trimmed correctly, the pitch will still self regulate the speed, no pushing required.
 
Hi all, I'm right at the end of my training for my PPL, in check-ride prep mode, and have a persistent problem that I know I'll figure out (because I'll keep practicing) but also wanted to ask for any thoughts you might have :)

Whenever I do a slip to landing, I pick up speed such that I usually can't land "on the numbers" or wherever it is that I'm aiming to land. It seems that a controlled approach goes quickly from controlled to a bit of chaos at the end.

How do I slip and manage speed in the transition from slip to final stable approach and flare?

Thanks for any and all opinions!


I went back and re-read your post AnnaG and I can't resist some armchair flying. If you're picking up speed in a slip, you're nosing down too much. It's that simple. There's no other explanation unless you're pouring the power to it or slipping downwind. Make sure you are slipping INTO any side wind. You want to 'feel' the aircraft down with your butt and your eyes. What you perceive as speed, can sometimes be sink rate. Forget the ASI, feel it and don't be shy to hear a stall chirp or two. Your head ought'a be out of the pit, and one hand on the throttle anyway. :yesnod:

Look at the sock on EACH final. Don't take ADIS word for it or care even if it's your fifth touch and go going round and round. Always take a look at the sock, or trees or smoke, or something if you can on short final. If there's no sock, try to be aware exactly where your wind is on each approach. Wind makes a huge difference in these small craft we fly.

I prefer to drop a wing because it confirms not only the wind, but the limits of my aircraft. But I'm not training, plus I'm flying a conventional gear aircraft. So it's apples and oranges at this point. You'll move on to drop wing hold centerline one wheel touchdowns when you get your tailwheel endorsement and become a real pilot. :lol: (I couldn't resist) Good job and good luck. :)


:goofy:
 
Can you explain to me how that transition works?

What I was getting at, if your coming in steep (or your a student that screwed up their speed management) you got full flaps if you have them, power cut, your slipping but still got a good clip of speed, keep the slip but bring the nose up to slow down, then back down.

I've seen a few students at my home drome who get the nice lowerd for landing and just don't seem to think they can bring it up again before the flare.
 
I went back and re-read your post AnnaG and I can't resist some armchair flying. If you're picking up speed in a slip, you're nosing down too much. It's that simple. There's no other explanation unless you're pouring the power to it or slipping downwind. Make sure you are slipping INTO any side wind. You want to 'feel' the aircraft down with your butt and your eyes. What you perceive as speed, can sometimes be sink rate. Forget the ASI, feel it and don't be shy to hear a stall chirp or two. Your head ought'a be out of the pit, and one hand on the throttle anyway. :yesnod:

Look at the sock on EACH final. Don't take ADIS word for it or care even if it's your fifth touch and go going round and round. Always take a look at the sock, or trees or smoke, or something if you can on short final. If there's no sock, try to be aware exactly where your wind is on each approach. Wind makes a huge difference in these small craft we fly.

I prefer to drop a wing because it confirms not only the wind, but the limits of my aircraft. But I'm not training, plus I'm flying a conventional gear aircraft. So it's apples and oranges at this point. You'll move on to drop wing hold centerline one wheel touchdowns when you get your tailwheel endorsement and become a real pilot. :lol: (I couldn't resist) Good job and good luck. :)


:goofy:

That's the point in my original texts to her. If she is able to pitch down, she is not slipping fully. The slip alone loses the altitude. If in full slip there will be no need to even try it, she will drop like a rock if she does it right.

I can lose 1200fpm easily in a full slip.
 
I went back and re-read your post AnnaG and I can't resist some armchair flying. If you're picking up speed in a slip, you're nosing down too much. It's that simple. There's no other explanation
Good so far.

unless you're pouring the power to it or slipping downwind. Make sure you are slipping INTO any side wind.
I'm not sure how the wind direction would affect your sink rate in a slip since you're in the wind. If you have a crosswind, you should leave your wing down into the wind and just add as much rudder as you can before running out of aileron to counter the crosswind.

You want to 'feel' the aircraft down with your butt and your eyes. What you perceive as speed, can sometimes be sink rate. Forget the ASI, feel it and don't be shy to hear a stall chirp or two. Your head ought'a be out of the pit, and one hand on the throttle anyway. :yesnod:
I'm a bit confused by this. Yes, you use your eyes, but in this instance primarily to keep the plane on the proper pitch attitude for final approach, while looking at the runway centerline to see if you need to change bank angle to drift yourself left or right to get on/stay on the centerline.

Look at the sock on EACH final.
Forget the wind sock, First, you should be looking at the runway, not the wind sock. Second, the wind on approach, over the threshold, or even in the touchdown zone may be significantly different than the wind sock indicates. Just look at the runway centerline, and use that to cue the need to change bank angle to manage lateral drift to get on/stay on the centerline. You do this no matter what the sock or AWOS/ASOS or ATIS or someone on the radio says. Once on the approach, If you run out of available bank without being able to correct, you go around and find another runway more aligned with the wind - again, no matter what anyone or anything tells you the wind is.
 
Good so far.

I'm not sure how the wind direction would affect your sink rate in a slip since you're in the wind. If you have a crosswind, you should leave your wing down into the wind and just add as much rudder as you can before running out of aileron to counter the crosswind.

Now you're confusing me. Are we crab/slipping down over the fence or landing a taildragger? :dunno:

I'm a bit confused by this. Yes, you use your eyes, but in this instance primarily to keep the plane on the proper pitch attitude for final approach, while looking at the runway centerline to see if you need to change bank angle to drift yourself left or right to get on/stay on the centerline.

O.k. :dunno:

Forget the wind sock, First, you should be looking at the runway, not the wind sock. Second, the wind on approach, over the threshold, or even in the touchdown zone may be significantly different than the wind sock indicates. Just look at the runway centerline, and use that to cue the need to change bank angle to manage lateral drift to get on/stay on the centerline. You do this no matter what the sock or AWOS/ASOS or ATIS or someone on the radio says. Once on the approach, If you run out of available bank without being able to correct, you go around and find another runway more aligned with the wind - again, no matter what anyone or anything tells you the wind is.

My point was to just be sure and confirm the wind by looking at the sock or something, not staring at it. Geaaa, picky instructor's....;) How else are you going to know which way to even point the nose for the slip unless you know where the wind is if it's crosswise? You go and slip away from the wind and see what kind of rodeo you've signed up for amigo. :arf::goofy:

Anyway, just trying to be helpful and arm chair flying like I said in the beginning. It's stupid, but I'm bored because I'm not flying and this is the next best thing. :redface:... :heli:
 
Two exercises I did with my students that seemed to help.

1) At altitude, slow to approach speed and configuration. Smoothly apply FULL rudder one way or another. Pedal all the way to the floor. Students tend to be shy with that, and at first I might have to "help" to get it all the way to the floor. Apply whatever opposite aileron is needed so as not to turn.

Then, in that situation, just use the ailerons to "steer" the plane back and forth.

Makes it clear what a maximum-effort slip can do, and what effect ailerons have on it.

2) Line up with a road or a section line when there is a good crosswind, and set up a crab into the wind. Then dip the upwind wing into the wind, using opposite rudder to align the plane's longitudinal axis with the road. Then use the ailerons and rudder to move the plane left or right while still lined up with the road. Then go back to a crab. Repeat as necessary.

The former prepares the student for forward slips to steepen an approach; the latter for side slips as needed in crosswind landings.

But, again, bear in mind that to the airplane they are identical - what differentiates one from the other is just the desired ground path of the plane.
 
AC 61-67B
DATE: 5/17/1991
ADVISORY CIRCULAR
AC No: 61-67B
Date: 5/17/91
Initiated
by: AFS-840
Change:
Subject: STALL AND SPIN AWARENESS TRAINING
1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) explains the stall and
spin awareness training required under Part 61 of the Federal
Aviation Regulations (FAR) and offers guidance to flight
instructors who provide that training.

.....
CHAPTER 2. FLIGHT TRAINING - STALLS ...................... 7

......
d. Cross Controlled Stalls in Gliding Turns. Perform stalls
in gliding turns to simulate turns from base to final. Perform
the stalls from a properly coordinated turn, a slipping turn, and
a skidding turn. Explain the difference between slipping and
skidding turns. Explain the ball indicator position in each turn
and the aircraft behavior in each of the stalls.
 
When I watch Cessna landings on YouTube I ALWAYS hear their little stall horn just before they touch down. A stall landing is done all the time. Especially on short fields.

The stall horn is in ADVANCE of the stall. Alledged "full stall" landings are generally not. In a taildragger, if the mains are on the ground it's practically impossible to be stalled. Similarly in a tricycle gear, you'd be dragging the tail if you stalled it.

Further, I have no idea what point you're trying to make in response to my post.
You use terms that exist nowhere in modern aviation for light aircraft so I have no idea what you are talking about. What the hell is "STANDARD FLAPS." Standard flaps for landing as far as the FAA is concerned is FULL FLAPS. No amount of flaps you describe yields the aerodynamcs that you ascribe in most planes.
 
What I was getting at, if your coming in steep (or your a student that screwed up their speed management) you got full flaps if you have them, power cut, your slipping but still got a good clip of speed, keep the slip but bring the nose up to slow down, then back down.

I've seen a few students at my home drome who get the nice lowerd for landing and just don't seem to think they can bring it up again before the flare.

Ok, but that's not the difference between a 'forward' and 'side' slip. The only difference is application. One is used to control lateral motion in a crosswind, the other to increase rate of sink relative to forward motion (or just to add drag and slow down regardless of sink). Both of them present the side of the aircraft to the relative wind, one to add drag, one to maintain alignment, with the rudder and both control lateral movement with bank angle. A slip is a slip is a slip, the only difference in them is extent of control input and desired result. Controlling speed with pitch is something every pilot should be able to do whether in a slip or not.
 
I'm not sure how the wind direction would affect your sink rate in a slip since you're in the wind. If you have a crosswind, you should leave your wing down into the wind and just add as much rudder as you can before running out of aileron to counter the crosswind.
Now you're confusing me. Are we crab/slipping down over the fence or landing a taildragger? :dunno:
We're landing an airplane -- location of the third wheel doesn't matter.

My point was to just be sure and confirm the wind by looking at the sock or something, not staring at it. Geaaa, picky instructor's....;) How else are you going to know which way to even point the nose for the slip unless you know where the wind is if it's crosswise?
You line up on final and see which way you're drifting, then bank to correct for the drift. Since the wind on final or over the landing threshold may be entirely different than what the wind sock shows, making corrections based on the wind sock only makes it harder to figure out what the wind where you currently are actually is, and what correction is actually needed.

I've seen this many times -- the pilot looks at the sock, drops the wing accordingly, and then can't understand why the plane is going the wrong way. They end up flailing around and landing sideways either scraping the rubber off their tires or going around because they're headed off the edge of the runway. OTOH, if they just roll the plane in the direction the want it to move laterally, and adjust bank to stop lateral movement once on the centerline, all the time using their feet to point the nose towards the runway centerline, it all goes much better.
 
Ok, but that's not the difference between a 'forward' and 'side' slip. The only difference is application. One is used to control lateral motion in a crosswind, the other to increase rate of sink relative to forward motion (or just to add drag and slow down regardless of sink). Both of them present the side of the aircraft to the relative wind, one to add drag, one to maintain alignment, with the rudder and both control lateral movement with bank angle. A slip is a slip is a slip, the only difference in them is extent of control input and desired result. Controlling speed with pitch is something every pilot should be able to do whether in a slip or not.
Exactly -- it doesn't matter whether it's called a forward slip or a side slip as long as you just put the plane where you want it.
 
Hi Anna. You need to talk to your CFI. I think, based on your post, that you are flying the final too fast in a C-152 for a short field landing. You airspeed numbers sound more like a "normal" approach (if there is such a thing). For short field, you should have full flaps in. If you need to slip a little on final to land where you want to, then kick in just a little slip, then take it back out when your profile is where you want it. That is the beauty of a slip -- you can make minor adjustments in your profile to keep it like you want it.


Good luck on the check ride, and welcome to the Blue Board :)!

Yes, I agree completely. Speed is the problem. Trim is a large part of the solution. And I'm interested in being able to make smooth transitions, as you say, from approach to slip to approach - if necessary - because I'm interested in having the techniques at my disposal in real life. And then there's the check ride...I'm less worried about not passing than I am about not knowing why certain things happen, or don't happen, being able to quickly correct, or flying through mistakes, going around and fully understanding how to correct. Thank you so much!
 
Exactly -- it doesn't matter whether it's called a forward slip or a side slip as long as you just put the plane where you want it.

Yeah, what type of slip are you doing if you're doing it to lose altitude AND it happens to correct for x-wind or vice versa. ;) It's a pointless distinction that actually seems to have some pilots thinking there's a difference.
 
What I was getting at, if your coming in steep (or your a student that screwed up their speed management) you got full flaps if you have them, power cut, your slipping but still got a good clip of speed, keep the slip but bring the nose up to slow down, then back down.

Sounds like you're referring to airspeed control. What does that have to do with this side/forward slip stuff??

And you got a 2-fer on pet peeves here - "your" for "you're", and sideslip/forward slip nonsense. Just had to say. ;)
 
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Yes, I agree completely. Speed is the problem. Trim is a large part of the solution. And I'm interested in being able to make smooth transitions, as you say, from approach to slip to approach - if necessary - because I'm interested in having the techniques at my disposal in real life. And then there's the check ride...I'm less worried about not passing than I am about not knowing why certain things happen, or don't happen, being able to quickly correct, or flying through mistakes, going around and fully understanding how to correct. Thank you so much!

You will do well in aviation. Trim, Trim, Trim, this is the key to "Aviation made easy". Once the power is set, my right hand goes to my knee and my fingertips rest on the trim wheel. Even in cruise, as the plane uses fuel, the drag reduces, you have two options to deal with it, either trim for a higher speed (nose down) or reduce power, otherwise you will have to fight it from climbing in the yoke. You should only use the yoke for transitions and corrections, not to hold steady state corrections.
 
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If your plane slips well (enough rudder) the extra drag causes the need to drop the nose a bit to keep sufficient airspeed to avoid stalling. Most people error by just releasing the control inputs and not raising the nose as you release the slip and they zoom toward the runway and pick up a bunch of speed. I learned in a 150 also and currently fly a Citabria with no flaps.

If you just use the rudder and ailerons without pushing, the nose will drop on it's own as speed decays, and come up again as speed builds, as long as you aren't fighting the plane.
 
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A Demonstrator Pilot and IP friend of mine replied when I commented on heavy stick forces in the T-6A Texan II, 'use the trim, you're a pilot, pilots don't work for a living, let the airplane do it'.

Totally changed my approach to flying (trim is your friend).

'Gimp
 
AC 61-67B
DATE: 5/17/1991
ADVISORY CIRCULAR
AC No: 61-67B
Date: 5/17/91
Initiated
by: AFS-840
Change:
Subject: STALL AND SPIN AWARENESS TRAINING
1. PURPOSE. This advisory circular (AC) explains the stall and
spin awareness training required under Part 61 of the Federal
Aviation Regulations (FAR) and offers guidance to flight
instructors who provide that training.

.....
CHAPTER 2. FLIGHT TRAINING - STALLS ...................... 7

......
d. Cross Controlled Stalls in Gliding Turns. Perform stalls
in gliding turns to simulate turns from base to final. Perform
the stalls from a properly coordinated turn, a slipping turn, and
a skidding turn. Explain the difference between slipping and
skidding turns. Explain the ball indicator position in each turn
and the aircraft behavior in each of the stalls.

..So,...if you get proficient at stalling and slipping and skidding and stalling, as is required by the above AC (regulatory guidance), and proficient meaning comfortable in all those scenarios, you will be comfortable slippin and skiddin to a final touchdown right at the spot you are aiming for.

All the verbal and written advice on this board, in the books, and out at the hangar is not very applicable until you have mastered this basic skill.

While the above training has been required ever since we learned to fly, it has been mostly dropped from most schools and individual instructors since the inception of the PTS Checkride.

Schools and instructors have the mistaken idea that they are only required to teach the PTS maneuvers. However, certification practical tests do not test basic fundamental control of pitch, roll, and yaw.

And that's what we're talking about. When you have control of the airplane throughout it's pitch, roll, and yaw, while it is stalling, and you are cool about it, you will not be afraid of the airplane.

...and the above maneuvers will fix it.
 
We're landing an airplane -- location of the third wheel doesn't matter.

You line up on final and see which way you're drifting, then bank to correct for the drift. Since the wind on final or over the landing threshold may be entirely different than what the wind sock shows, making corrections based on the wind sock only makes it harder to figure out what the wind where you currently are actually is, and what correction is actually needed.

I've seen this many times -- the pilot looks at the sock, drops the wing accordingly, and then can't understand why the plane is going the wrong way. They end up flailing around and landing sideways either scraping the rubber off their tires or going around because they're headed off the edge of the runway. OTOH, if they just roll the plane in the direction the want it to move laterally, and adjust bank to stop lateral movement once on the centerline, all the time using their feet to point the nose towards the runway centerline, it all goes much better.


It all sounds good to me except the location of the third wheel doesn't matter part. I know it matters on the transition in a TD. You need the tailwheel as close to center with the nose as possible. If you're drifting to the side, you should probably go around.

If you go back, I said you mostly feel the plane down in slips and you feel the wind. Not necessarily scientific, but more opinionated. ;)

I didn't give anyone any exceptionally bad advice here I don't think ... as usual, they can take it or leave it. :wink2:
 
It all sounds good to me except the location of the third wheel doesn't matter part. I know it matters on the transition in a TD. You need the tailwheel as close to center with the nose as possible. If you're drifting to the side, you should probably go around...... :wink2:
That's true of a trike as well, it's just that the tailwheel is much less forgiving of sloppyness in this regard.
 
Take it up to altitude and try in a few different weight and balance configs to actually create a tail stall.

I have a feeling you'll find it nearly impossible in the real world in your aircraft.

It's not completely an OWT in Cessnas but the 172 placard warning against extended slips with flaps extended kinda encroached out to all Cessnas with no intent by the people who placarded the 172 to have it do so.

Certainly every airframe is different, so I say "go try it". See if you ever truly lose elevator authority in your aircraft. I seriously doubt you will. And you'll know more about your specific airplane.

Plus, it's fun. Take someone along who enjoys flying sideways. :)
From the Cessna 170B "owners manual" dated 1956 and I quote;
".........Slips with full flaps are to be avoided because if the slip is extreme enough at a relatively high airspeed, the airflow is disrupted over the tail surface resulting in a sudden and steep, downward pitch of the nose."
I can't imagine why anyone would combine an "extreme" slip, full (40*) of flaps and a "relatively high" airspeed :confused: , but apparently Cessna's test pilots did and with surprising results :hairraise:
 
It all sounds good to me except the location of the third wheel doesn't matter part. I know it matters on the transition in a TD. You need the tailwheel as close to center with the nose as possible. If you're drifting to the side, you should probably go around.
No, you should stop the drift with bank angle and then land. The key is using the actual drift to drive your control inputs rather than the wind sensed at a wind sock some 6-10 feet above the surface a long way from where you actually are. That's how you avoid that drift.
 
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