Single Pilot IFR

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
Is it really THAT risky?

If so, why does the FAA require a Commercial candidate to do a long XC, where presumably "there may be dragons (clouds) out there.":hairraise:

Link here
 
Like anything, it's a managed risk. Often, flying IFR increases safety and reduces pilot workload, particularily if it enables the pilot to fly IFR in visual conditions above a undercast, rather than legally scudrunning under a 3000 overcast.

Part of instrument training is learning to manage the risk.
 
I wouldn't use the word risky. I'd say you just have to be on your A game in IMC and it requires a lot of concentration once you get in the goo. Some of the hardest flights I've had were short, 50 mi IFR flight in IMC. You get your clearance, fly the DP, get a vector to the fix, climb to cruise altitue, decend a few minutes after that, get vectored to the approach, descend, have to get the ATIS, have the brief the approach, set up navs/radios, think about the missed approach procedure, plan our taxi route once you touch down, etc. Some of the easiest flights I've had were long IFR flights in severe VMC.
 
An Instrument-rated pilot lacking proficiency can easily get behind the 8 ball in IMC. Add weather, night, lack of an autopilot and a high workload approach and yeah, it can get really challenging really quick. Then again, I guess I could have stopped at an instrument-rated pilot lacking proficiency...
 
I'll bet there are at least a dozen members of this forum who made a living flying single-pilot IFR. Carrying boxes in all kinds of weather is how we accumulated the hours to qualify for the certificates we hold.

Bob Gardner
 
IMO single pilot IFR is the most overall challenging flying any of us in the civilian world will ever do. It's telling (and appropriate IMO) that charter work requires an autopilot.
 
To me, IFR is much easier than VFR due to the assistance you get from ATC. That said, IMC is a spectrum from smooth flying with high ceilings below which is pretty easy to hard IMC to minimums in turbulence which is a real test. Where on that spectrum it becomes risky depends on a combination of equipment and proficiency.
 
With the right equipment ,it should be manageable .
 
with the appropiate tools and staying within personal limits and away form thunderstorms I don't really think single pilot IFR is that more riskier than vfr night flying.
 
I've never known any other way, so I've not thought about it much. Stay current, pick your weather wisely, and it's not a big deal. It's nice to have a 2nd pilot or a flying savvy nonpilot on board to reduce the workload, though. George the AP is a must for frequent single pilot IFR.
 
chemgeek said:
I've never known any other way, so I've not thought about it much. Stay current, pick your weather wisely, and it's not a big deal. It's nice to have a 2nd pilot or a flying savvy nonpilot on board to reduce the workload, though. George the AP is a must for frequent single pilot IFR.
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No it isn't. If one thinks it is a must, maybe they need to reassess their skills. Most of the time, I'm actually bored flying IFR, and an A/P would guarantee me going to sleep.
 
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EdFred said:
No it isn't. If one thinks it is a must, maybe they need to reassess their skills. Most of the time, I'm actually bored flying IFR, and an A/P would guarantee me going to sleep.
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It's not a must but it is a nice tool to have. It does relieve some of the workload so one can manage other things more effectively.
 
EdFred said:
No it isn't.
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I've had an instrument rating for over 14 yrs now and have yet to fly an aircraft with an autopilot during an IFR flight.

Hey there's a new topic we've never discussed on POA before. Should an AP be required for IFR ops? :lol:
 
A lot of manly pilots here who are too good to have autopilot. Hand flying in solid IFR is exhausting. Every pilot should be able to do it of course, but use of autopilot reduces workload and reduces accumulated fatigue, increasing altertness and improving safety for the approach phase of the flight.
 
Doesn't this whole AP thing depend on the airplane?

My cherokee 140 wasn't fast enough to get away from me quickly in IMC (dispite being somewhat light in roll). But I wouldn't want to hand-fly a Lancair SuperES for very long (VFR or IMC).
 
Brad Z said:
A lot of manly pilots here who are too good to have autopilot. Hand flying in solid IFR is exhausting. Every pilot should be able to do it of course, but use of autopilot reduces workload and reduces accumulated fatigue, increasing altertness and improving safety for the approach phase of the flight.
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Egg ZACT lee
 
Brad Z said:
A lot of manly pilots here who are too good to have autopilot. Hand flying in solid IFR is exhausting. Every pilot should be able to do it of course, but use of autopilot reduces workload and reduces accumulated fatigue, increasing altertness and improving safety for the approach phase of the flight.
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Except it doesn't. I have never felt fatigued when flying, let alone exhausted. Putting an AP in the plane will put me to sleep. The only thing that keeps me awake when flying solo is flying the plane. It has nothing to do with being "manly" it is simply not being mediocre. Wallow if you want to, and keep the training wheels on your bicycle while you're at it.

Just because someone is better than you at something doesn't mean they are manly, it just means you suck as a pilot.
 
Most of my over 2,000 hours are single pilot IFR. So i'm used to it, I have a system, and I'm comfortable with it. If I have someone with me who I don't have a good system with, that person is more of a hindrance than a help. Even then, sometimes (and usually when things get the most stressful) it turns into "Don't touch nuttin', I'm doing it."

But I fly a lot, and there's a big difference between single pilot IFR on a clear day and single pilot IFR with low ceilings, storms, and other crap out there.
 
EdFred said:
Except it doesn't. I have never felt fatigued when flying, let alone exhausted. Putting an AP in the plane will put me to sleep. The only thing that keeps me awake when flying solo is flying the plane. It has nothing to do with being "manly" it is simply not being mediocre. Wallow if you want to, and keep the training wheels on your bicycle while you're at it.

Just because someone is better than you at something doesn't mean they are manly, it just means you suck as a pilot.
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Ed, really? This entire post is uncalled for.
 
cirrusmx said:
with the appropiate tools and staying within personal limits and away form thunderstorms I don't really think single pilot IFR is that more riskier than vfr night flying.
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I never really understood personal limits for IFR. My limits are ehatever the DA/MDA are. If I'm not comfortable flying the approach to minimums, I have failed as an Instrument pilot
 
EdFred said:
Except it doesn't. I have never felt fatigued when flying, let alone exhausted. Putting an AP in the plane will put me to sleep. The only thing that keeps me awake when flying solo is flying the plane. It has nothing to do with being "manly" it is simply not being mediocre. Wallow if you want to, and keep the training wheels on your bicycle while you're at it.

Just because someone is better than you at something doesn't mean they are manly, it just means you suck as a pilot.
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I really hope that was a joke...
 
Jaybird180 said:
Is it really THAT risky?
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No, just a lot more demanding than single pilot VFR.

If so, why does the FAA require a Commercial candidate to do a long XC, where presumably "there may be dragons (clouds) out there.":hairraise:
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While the FAA permits that flight to be IFR, it does not require that flight to be IFR. Further, the FAA has no general prohibition on single-pilot IFR unless you failed to demonstrate single-pilot IFR proficiency on your instrument ride. Note that a substantial portion of the IR PTS is devoted to discussing evaluation of single-pilot IFR proficiencies.
 
EdFred said:
Except it doesn't. I have never felt fatigued when flying, let alone exhausted. Putting an AP in the plane will put me to sleep. The only thing that keeps me awake when flying solo is flying the plane. It has nothing to do with being "manly" it is simply not being mediocre. Wallow if you want to, and keep the training wheels on your bicycle while you're at it.

Just because someone is better than you at something doesn't mean they are manly, it just means you suck as a pilot.
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Bonus question: Open your copy of the pilot's handbook of Aeronautical knowledge, page 16-6. Can anyone identify which hazardous attitude EdFred is demonstrating in his post for us today?
 
EdFred said:
Except it doesn't. I have never felt fatigued when flying, let alone exhausted. Putting an AP in the plane will put me to sleep. The only thing that keeps me awake when flying solo is flying the plane. It has nothing to do with being "manly" it is simply not being mediocre. Wallow if you want to, and keep the training wheels on your bicycle while you're
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I have. Hauling checks single pilot at night in college in the midwest usa i was always wiped out on the last leg home. Hauling boxes in africa in a king air or antonov often ended in an ndb approach after i was already worn out. We had ops specs for the king air's single pilot but not with an inop autopilot. I would bid an24 flights on ifr days every chance i got, just because there was a better chance of one of us being alert enough to miss the rocks.

I was ~20 then and in great shape. 25 years later i'm fatter, slower, and not flying a fraction of the time as then. I am nowhere as sharp as I was at that time when i saw single pilot ops as more challenging. And apparently the 20 year old me had not nearly as much stamina as you do, Ed. Well done, you are an inspiration to us all.
 
I normally fly a plane with a very good A/p ( Stec 55x). For a IFR flight that is up through a layer and cruise on top then descend through a layer then no A/P is fine. If I'm planning on spending a long time in the clouds then I want at least a wing leveler. If the weather is forecast to be close to minimums then I just won't go. Yes I've flown approaches to near minimums and I believe I have the skills and currency to do so if needed but I don't plan on it. I would refer to myself as a soft IFR pilot. As many others have said it's all about understanding and managing the risks, having good tools makes your life easier and allows you to manage the risks better.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Ed, really? This entire post is uncalled for.
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Yes really. If someone is going to hide behind a screen name, and come **** on me just because I'm better at something than he is, yeah, I will respond, just like I would if they said it to my face. But it's easy to hide and take pot shots behind anonymity.

EvilEagle said:
I really hope that was a joke...
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Not really. I've never gotten tired or exhausted from flying. I've been tired or exhausted from it being the end of an 18 hour day and I've happened to be flying, but if I've gotten my sleep, I will be no more exhausted at the end of of a 4 hour flight than I would be at the end of watching TV for 4 hours. It is seriously not taxing to me at all.

Brad Z said:
Bonus question: Open your copy of the pilot's handbook of Aeronautical knowledge, page 16-6. Can anyone identify which hazardous attitude EdFred is demonstrating in his post for us today?
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None of them. As I said, just because you have a problem doing something, not everyone does. I chalk it up to suckage. Don't like it? Get better, or quit trying to tear anyone down who's better than you. It's OK to have shortcomings, I have them in other areas, and freely admit them. But not everyone has the same ones. Yeah, you think you're an awesome pilot and the gold standard, so anyone else has to have a hazardous attitude when they are better than you, because in your world no one can possible be better. Well they are. I am. And there's plenty out there who are better than me. See how easy that is?

JHW said:
I have. Hauling checks single pilot at night in college in the midwest usa i was always wiped out on the last leg home. Hauling boxes in africa in a king air or antonov often ended in an ndb approach after i was already worn out. We had ops specs for the king air's single pilot but not with an inop autopilot. I would bid an24 flights on ifr days every chance i got, just because there was a better chance of one of us being alert enough to miss the rocks.

I was ~20 then and in great shape. 25 years later i'm fatter, slower, and not flying a fraction of the time as then. I am nowhere as sharp as I was at that time when i saw single pilot ops as more challenging. And apparently the 20 year old me had not nearly as much stamina as you do, Ed. Well done, you are an inspiration to us all.
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Was that due to it being a long day, or due solely to flying? I've driven a certain route a great number of times and never been exhausted or tired - except once. And that was because it was in the last 2/3s of a 33 hour work day. I was struggling to stay awake. Of course, I was also struggling to stay awake when I got back to the office while I did my normal work. So if one wants to say that sitting around doing nothing is exhausting, then yeah I guess flying IFR is exhausting.

Honestly I get more mentally drained from writing code than I do flying IFR. Why? Because I'm not that good at writing code and it's taxing. But I'm not going to say someone else is "manly" in a derogatory way because they write code better than I do, and they don't get a mental drain from doing it. I know where my shortcomings are, but flying single pilot IFR isn't one of them.
 
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EdFred said:
Yes really. If someone is going to hide behind a screen name, and come **** on me just because I'm better at something than he is, yeah, I will respond, just like I would if they said it to my face. But it's easy to hide and take pot shots behind anonymity.
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We've met in person. If I give you my home address do I have permission to **** on you? Sounds like a fun Saturday night.
 
ChrisK said:
We've met in person. If I give you my home address do I have permission to **** on you? Sounds like a fun Saturday night.
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Ohio has really corrupted you. :D

Oh, and no, if we're hanging out on a Saturday night, your pants are staying on!
 
Between this thread and the one on the bad transponder I have come to the conclusion you boys need to get laid. Too much pent up testosterone.

Life is too short...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
EdFred said:
Oh, and no, if we're hanging out on a Saturday night, your pants are staying on!
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Hm. So much for the Grand Rapids folks I've known. Or maybe that was Muskegon. /shrug
 
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A/P is very nice when flying single pilot IFR. I flew a Swift with no autopilot to the bahamas and back in April. IFR with about an hour of flying in IMC on the return trip. It was a month before I felt like flying again!
 
I'll say this, while I'm sure I couldn't carry the flight bag for many in this group of straight bad asses; I find IFR flying MUCH more relaxing than driving and that's the real comparison in my world. Sometimes I use the autopilot, sometimes I don't; BUT when the SHTF, you bet I want the choice. IMO most of the IFR screwups are related to situation awareness in IMC vs. not being able to physically fly the airplane. Having an autopilot is a good way to avoid that.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I'll say this, while I'm sure I couldn't carry the flight bag for many in this group of straight bad asses; I find IFR flying MUCH more relaxing than driving and that's the real comparison in my world. Sometimes I use the autopilot, sometimes I don't; BUT when the SHTF, you bet I want the choice. IMO most of the IFR screwups are related to situation awareness in IMC vs. not being able to physically fly the airplane. Having an autopilot is a good way to avoid that.
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I agree that my limited IMC experience has been pretty benign. I was dodging storms with my instructor on my long cross country and that got momentarily hairy but it didn't last long. I think that the reason I'd want an autopilot is so I could be more comfortable about refreshing my situational awareness, briefing an approach plate, looking at alternate routing, etc.

I am amused that my first read of your statement above sounds like you are saying that having an autopilot is a good way to avoid having to physically fly the airplane :D
 
Alexb2000 said:
I'll say this, while I'm sure I couldn't carry the flight bag for many in this group of straight bad asses; I find IFR flying MUCH more relaxing than driving and that's the real comparison in my world. Sometimes I use the autopilot, sometimes I don't; BUT when the SHTF, you bet I want the choice. IMO most of the IFR screwups are related to situation awareness in IMC vs. not being able to physically fly the airplane. Having an autopilot is a good way to avoid that.
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And a good way to induce it when it slowly starts to go TU. Plenty of autopilots have died in flight. Probably more than the number of pilots that have died in flight. I have yet to die in flight, but have had other instruments do so. Pilots are more than welcome to be mediocre, push the A/P, and sit fat dumb and happy, because they lack the skills to hand fly in IMC without going oily side up. Until the A/P decides to make the plane go oily side up. What could possibly go wrong from there?
 
EdFred said:
And a good way to induce it when it slowly starts to go TU. Plenty of autopilots have died in flight. Probably more than the number of pilots that have died in flight. I have yet to die in flight, but have had other instruments do so. Pilots are more than welcome to be mediocre, push the A/P, and sit fat dumb and happy, because they lack the skills to hand fly in IMC without going oily side up. Until the A/P decides to make the plane go oily side up. What could possibly go wrong from there?
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Go easy on the little people, not all of us started this morning punching through a stack of 10 bricks or using a side of beef as a heavy bag. :)

Yes, autopilots can fail, so can engines, but pilots seems to fail FAR more frequently. Say you're on an arrival, low IMC, turbulence, rain, dark night, you've been up for over 18 hours. Then ATC decides to change your arrival, approach, and runway when you're 15 mins out. The frequency is firing like a machine gun and you need to get all of this right, reenter, navigate, rebrief, reback, etc., quickly and accurately. An autopilot is a great tool in that situation, doesn't mean you're a ***** for using it. Might even mean you're smart.
 
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