Single Pilot IFR

So then, there's "No way you'd go into that place at rush hour ...(with an inoperative autopilot)" ...unless you're already invested in getting in to Sydney.
in a manner of speaking, yes. I would not choose to start a trip with something than is going to increase my workload if I can reasonably reschedule. I don't need to seek out high workload situations to prove some kind of point. Still not sure what that point is.
 
We'll put..

I had the same thoughts when I was reading this thread.




:yeahthat:

Seen it happen several times with message boards where a few of the "regulars" chased off any new members and scared away the more casual visitors, so all of a sudden there were no new threads being started, and those that did post would usually be met with something like "lol this question has been asked before, learn to use the search box." Would hate to see that happen here.

If you don't want to have a civil discussion about aviation, what's the point of being on the site in the first place?
 
I've had an instrument rating for over 14 yrs now and have yet to fly an aircraft with an autopilot during an IFR flight.

Hey there's a new topic we've never discussed on POA before. Should an AP be required for IFR ops? :lol:

14 years but how many hours? I fly occasionally with a pilot who has close to 15000 hours with many of these in lears, arrow stars, superstars and mu 2s. He uses the ap a lot. He is highly proficient. I don't get the arguement, seems silly.
 
It's been many years since I flew a Lear, but if memory serves the autopilot was a no-go item. You are tarring a lot of people with that brush.

Bob Gardner

Lear is but one of many jets not legal to fly without an AP, and for good reason. RVSM.

Most airliners are not dispatch-able sans AP nowadays either, even when operated outside of the RVSM airspace. We used to be able to MEL them, but that changed many years ago. The last time I flew a 737 without an AP was about 17 years ago, and even though it was VFR everywhere, it was a long day. 5 legs on the west coast and I was dragging butt at the end of it.

Actually, that wasn't the last time. I had an issue that rendered the AP unusable between MCI and MCO about 10 years ago. Hand flying was the least of our worries at that point. After figuring out the issue and getting it partially rectified, we still had no AP, but were legal to continue to MCO.

My airline has been dragged, kicking and screaming onto the magenta path, (heck, when I got hired, we were still flying 737-200s with what I referred to as manual APs. I think they cameout of an early B-17 ;) ) and while I do appreciate the automation (most of the time), I fear that a lot of folks in the next generation will not have a good basis in hand flying. I'm already seeing it somewhat with the RJ guys, particularly those that did some kind of Ab Initio or paid for their first jobs types. Most of them can program the FMC like a secretary taking notes and twice as fast, but cringe anytime the AP is disengaged.
 
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After 40 years and a few thousand hours of actual IFR I've come to conclude that It's all about "mental bandwidth". There are days and situations that require two pilots and a working autopilot regardless of whether you're flying a jet or a piston-single and there are day and situations where it doesn't. Light IFR in a low density environment and you'd dang well better be able to manage everything by yourself. However, it doesn't take too much imagination to come up with a scenario where you're in a high density environment, dealing with some weather and you've got an equipment issue to deal with and before you know it, you're maxed out. There is absolutely no intrinsic virtue in "no autopilot IFR". In many cases, it's just another one of those "just because it's legal doesn't mean it's smart" moves that you see a lot of rookies do.
 
It was the yaw-damper that was a no-go item in the early Lears. I've hand-flown Lears coast-to-coast a couple of times without autopilots back in the pre-RVSM days. (Nowadays, a working autopilot is required for any aircraft flying between FL290 and FL410. You'd have to remain below FL290 or climb directly to FL430 to do it these days.)

There is nothing particularly challenging about hand-flying IFR, it's just an exercise in workload management.
 
get ready to be scared then. I cancelled a flight up to Sydney last sunday because the A/P was out on the king air. No way am I going into that place at rush hour without being able to hand the plane to george for a few minutes to take a note or do a chore.
Words of a true aviation professional.

As far as autopilot usage while IFR goes, I would like to believe that we can all hand fly all the various types of instrument approaches down to their respective minimums correctly and proficiently without any type of aid - flight director, autopilot, etc. If a pilot cannot do that, then he needs to get more training or quit flying IFR - period.

The autopilot is designed to be a pilot aid, not a pilot's crutch. That being said, aircraft owners spend great sums of money to provide redundancies for nearly every system on our aircraft - multi engines, dual this, triple that, etc., etc. Here's a question. When we hand fly an ILS approach down to minimums, what redundancy to we have in case of "pilot failure"? In aircraft with two-pilot crews, if the PNF is doing his job,will he be able to effectively take the controls in the case of a botched approach by the PF? Obviously not, and even if he was able to, is solid IFR at 200' AGL and with a 700 fpm sink rate the time and place to be making those types of changes?

Personally, I believe that we should hand fly all of the "high and mid" minimums approaches we can, but when the ceiling gets below 500 feet and the visibility gets below a mile couple it up and let the autopilot do its thing. We then become the backup to the autopilot and we have injected an element of redundancy into the operation. In that rare case that the autopilot messes up and gets us sideways to the world, relief is only a click of the autopilot release button away. In the mean time, you have been able to watch and monitor the approach while covering the controls. If it ever becomes necessary, the transition is both instantaneous and seamless.

Here is another item to consider…
We frequently use contract pilots in our operation. A while back, I had the opportunity to fly with one who subscribed to the theory that "real" pilots don’t use autopilots. It was his leg and we were departing one of the LA basin airports. It was one of those “minimum VFR" days and every Tom, Dick, and Harry was out in his little Cessna or Piper. It was a busy day and this guy did a masterful job of hand flying the departure procedure and working with ATC. The problem was that he had his head buried in the cockpit flying the airplane and not looking outside. It was the last time we ever used that guy.

There are other times when we probably have no business hand flying our high performance aircraft. For example, VFR weekends in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area or L.A. basin below 10,000' MSL. Can you really hand fly your high performance aircraft while maintaining an adequate watch for traffic or are you one of those guys who puts 100% faith in his TCAS or ATC?

I'm glad there there a few guys out there who are good enough to never need or use an autopilot. I'm not one of those guys.
 
14 years but how many hours? I fly occasionally with a pilot who has close to 15000 hours with many of these in lears, arrow stars, superstars and mu 2s. He uses the ap a lot. He is highly proficient. I don't get the arguement, seems silly.

5,000 hrs. What argument? I simply said in 14 years of having my instrument ticket, I've yet to fly an aircraft with an AP.

I got my instrument rating in 2000 on the Army's dime in TH-67s with no AP. Flew UH-60s for the next 12 years with FPS (attitude / heading hold) but no AP. Went back to being an instrument examiner flying the TH-67 sim with no AP. Obviously those are dual pilot aircraft but in 12 years 3,884 hrs, all my flying was hand flown.

Got my FW IFR in 2009 training in a Liberty XL with no AP. Took my checkride in a PA-28 with no AP. Bought my Velocity in 2010 with a wing leveler (used once) but no coupled AP. All of those aircraft I wouldn't hesitate to take on an IFR cross country. My Velocity is very stable in flight and in IMC just requires a bump of the electric trim every now and then.

It's not a macho thing, it's not an anti AP thing. I've just never flown an AP and so far and haven't had a need to use one. Ironically, our B407 is getting an AP this year and we fly only VFR. It'll be nice to actually let go of the controls on cross country flights but definitely not needed for the VFR flying that we do.
 
It's been many years since I flew a Lear, but if memory serves the autopilot was a no-go item. You are tarring a lot of people with that brush.

Bob Gardner
I've never flown anything even close to a Lear so FWIW, ....it's my understanding that's because the autopilot is a lot smoother than hand flying, important up in "coffin corner" where stall and mach buffet merge?
 
I've never flown anything even close to a Lear so FWIW, ....it's my understanding that's because the autopilot is a lot smoother than hand flying, important up in "coffin corner" where stall and mach buffet merge?
Guys, there is no autopilot requirement on the 20, 30 and 50 series Lears. On some of them there is a yaw damper requirement and dual yaw dampers were in stalled. Pretty much all of the early 20 and 30 series Lears still flying have had wing enhancements installed and there is no problem hand-flying them at altitude. The autopilot requirement came about a few years ago when RVSM was implemented world-wide between FL290 and FL410. Autopilots with altitude hold are required in that block of airspace.
 
I've never flown anything even close to a Lear so FWIW, ....it's my understanding that's because the autopilot is a lot smoother than hand flying, important up in "coffin corner" where stall and mach buffet merge?
It was the yaw damper that was required, John. The Lear liked to fishtail, which led to a tendancy to get into dutch roll. It wasn't really anything you couldn't outsmart though, just somewhat tedious.

Nowadays, RVSM requires autopilots because of the minimal buffer between flight levels--it used to be 2000'. But even before that a Lear, especially the straight-pipes and short coupled ones like the 23 and 24 models were very hard to maintain an accurate altitude with. Those tip tanks that are so beautiful were, after all, TANKS. Filled partially with fuel, as the attitude changed slightly all the kerosene would run one way or the other, not always in unison. Made steep turns in training a real bear. The static port location was also subject to local disturbances which could cause dramatic changes in altitude indications. The autopilot seemed better able to talk to the static defect correction module than the pilots could.

EDIT: Oops. I see someone beat me to the punch.

dtuuri
 
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A lot of manly pilots here who are too good to have autopilot. Hand flying in solid IFR is exhausting. Every pilot should be able to do it of course, but use of autopilot reduces workload and reduces accumulated fatigue, increasing altertness and improving safety for the approach phase of the flight.

My first plane had no AP and I did hundreds of hours of single pilot IFR, frequently with low IMC. The new plane has a great AP. The biggest increase in safety I see is actually being able to read the charts fully. Previously, I had a hard time really reviewing carefully the low route charts or plates when ATC gave me something unexpected. Now, I just pick up the iPad and read it carefully. As a result, I feel way more ahead of what's going on than I used to feel.

Will never forget hand-flying, single pilot, full IMC into NYC when I got the "...advise when ready to copy..." and got a whale of a new clearance. Looking all that up, entering a bunch of fixes in the 430, while holding heading and altitude in a nimble plane (Grumman Tiger) while in IMC was a total handful (but still kinda fun - but not fun enough that I look forward to doing it ever again).
 
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There is nothing particularly challenging about hand-flying IFR, it's just an exercise in workload management.
I'd agree completely with that statement, at least from my vantage point as a Cessna 170 pilot. It's not that hard to stay ahead of the airplane at 100 knots but even at that rather sedate speed you can't just react to the situation as it unfolds or you'll soon find yourself getting behind the airplane.
 
I'd agree completely with that statement, at least from my vantage point as a Cessna 170 pilot. It's not that hard to stay ahead of the airplane at 100 knots but even at that rather sedate speed you can't just react to the situation as it unfolds or you'll soon find yourself getting behind the airplane.
It applies to transport jet pilots too. (And everything else in between.)
 
It was the yaw damper that was required, John. The Lear liked to fishtail, which led to a tendancy to get into dutch roll. It wasn't really anything you couldn't outsmart though, just somewhat tedious.



Nowadays, RVSM requires autopilots because of the minimal buffer between flight levels--it used to be 2000'. But even before that a Lear, especially the straight-pipes and short coupled ones like the 23 and 24 models were very hard to maintain an accurate altitude with. Those tip tanks that are so beautiful were, after all, TANKS. Filled partially with fuel, as the attitude changed slightly all the kerosene would run one way or the other, not always in unison. Made steep turns in training a real bear. The static port location was also subject to local disturbances which could cause dramatic changes in altitude indications. The autopilot seemed better able to talk to the static defect correction module than the pilots could.



EDIT: Oops. I see someone beat me to the punch.



dtuuri


Is the AP w Altitude hold just required to be installed, or does it also need to used when flying level in RVSM airspace? (Ie, no hand-flying allowed up there)
 
Is the AP w Altitude hold just required to be installed, or does it also need to used when flying level in RVSM airspace? (Ie, no hand-flying allowed up there)
Well, that's a good and controversial question. It depends on the letter of authority and how people interpret it. If it says flight above FL290 needs a "functioning autopilot" some people will take that to mean "on and operating". Others will hand fly the climb and descent. Depends how your boss interprets it I guess.

dtuuri
 
It was the yaw-damper that was a no-go item in the early Lears. I've hand-flown Lears coast-to-coast a couple of times without autopilots back in the pre-RVSM days. (Nowadays, a working autopilot is required for any aircraft flying between FL290 and FL410. You'd have to remain below FL290 or climb directly to FL430 to do it these days.)

There is nothing particularly challenging about hand-flying IFR, it's just an exercise in workload management.

Right. I flew 23/24/25 back in the 1970s and forgot the details.

Bob
 
Well, that's a good and controversial question. It depends on the letter of authority and how people interpret it. If it says flight above FL290 needs a "functioning autopilot" some people will take that to mean "on and operating". Others will hand fly the climb and descent. Depends how your boss interprets it I guess.

dtuuri

Unless the rules have changed in the past few years, RVSM certs always assume the autopilot is used.

hand-fly in RVSM airspace at your own risk when in sight of a monitoring station. It's unlikely hand-flying will comply with the altitude hold requirements.
 
Unless the rules have changed in the past few years, RVSM certs always assume the autopilot is used.

hand-fly in RVSM airspace at your own risk when in sight of a monitoring station. It's unlikely hand-flying will comply with the altitude hold requirements.
I think FARs have to allow the AP to be clicked off, as deemed by the captain. Sometimes you just have to do that to figure out why the darn plane's flying crooked, trim it up, then reengage.

dtuuri
 
Unless the rules have changed in the past few years, RVSM certs always assume the autopilot is used.

hand-fly in RVSM airspace at your own risk when in sight of a monitoring station. It's unlikely hand-flying will comply with the altitude hold requirements.


What's a "monitoring station?" Do you mean "on ATC radar"?
 
If you've had the chance to sit in one of the front seats in a jet in RVSM airspace and actually seen head on traffic closing at 1,000' feet above you at 1,000 mph, you'd understand better why using altitude hold on AP is a good idea. (Higher standards for the 3 required altimeters as well )

I have a very hard time figuring out how anyone would think using an AP single or two pilot IFR is not a good thing.
 
If you've had the chance to sit in one of the front seats in a jet in RVSM airspace and actually seen head on traffic closing at 1,000' feet above you at 1,000 mph, you'd understand better why using altitude hold on AP is a good idea. (Higher standards for the 3 required altimeters as well )



I have a very hard time figuring out how anyone would think using an AP single or two pilot IFR is not a good thing.


Certainly not debating the wisdom of doing it. (And I'd love to sit in the front seat of a jet in flight, never done that).

Just wondering what the rules are.
 
If you've had the chance to sit in one of the front seats in a jet in RVSM airspace and actually seen head on traffic closing at 1,000' feet above you at 1,000 mph, you'd understand better why using altitude hold on AP is a good idea.
Last week ATC stopped our climb at FL360 while a B747-400 passed us at FL370. It's a sight that I've seen many times over the years, but it's always very impressive. I don't care what you're flying, the 747 is one big airplane when it passes directly overhead at 1000 ft and 1000 knots closing speed. And yes, using the auto pilot is a very good idea. :D
 
And yes, using the auto pilot is a very good idea. :D

As long as you're all not so taken in by the air show you don't notice altitude hold somehow got tripped off. I know a pilot who got a deviation when that very thing happened.

dtuuri
 
As well he should have.

I suppose so, but hearing his story made me pay closer attention to altitude hold while looking for traffic too, so I thought it worth mentioning. Apparently my friend had a new copilot who was flying the leg. Center was calling out traffic and both sets of eyes were out of the cockpit admiring the other plane as it passed overhead. This was before RVSM, but they still got dinged.

dtuuri
 
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I have a very hard time figuring out how anyone would think using an AP single or two pilot IFR is not a good thing.
I don't think anybody's suggesting an AP wouldn't be a good thing? I can think of a number of things that would be nice to have, others of which would have priority for me before an autopilot...., finances permitting.
 
I don't think anybody's suggesting an AP wouldn't be a good thing? I can think of a number of things that would be nice to have, others of which would have priority for me before an autopilot...., finances permitting.
actually some here (not you) are suggesting exactly that.
 
I have recently completed transition training to a couple of slightly different flavors of technically advanced aircraft, and the one thing I have noticed (and others have pointed out on other threads) is that while airmanship skills are important to keep current, the aspects of managing the flight systems of a technically advanced aircraft also require understanding and currency so they do not become a hinderance to situational awareness and safe operation. Properly managing the autopilots of these aircraft are an important competency and give a pilot bandwidth to properly manage other aspects of flying the plane, including both complex systems and overall situational awareness.

Personally, I try to spend some time with an instructor in a cub to make sure I continuously refine basic airmanship while flying these automated aircraft.
 
What's interesting here is the divide between those who have been professional pilots and those who haven't. In most fields, I find professionals appreciate tools, and non-professionals find many tools superfluous.

I'm not a big AP user and have never canceled a flight because of an inop AP. However, I do use and appreciate it as a workload reducer. I've hand flown 12 hours in a day, and some days I've flown 12 hours and probably hand flown 20 minutes of that. Depends on the day.
 
What's interesting here is the divide between those who have been professional pilots and those who haven't. In most fields, I find professionals appreciate tools, and non-professionals find many tools superfluous. ...........
Perhaps another factor in that line is that the non-professionals (of which I include myself) have the financial need to justify "tools" and thus tend to prioritize more. I certainly could "appreciate" an autopilot in my Cessna 170, ...even a simple wing leveler would be nice but I can't afford everything that would be nice, I have to justify the $$$$.
 
For me it is strictly about hand flying the plane keeping me safer. If I have an AP button, I can pretty much guarantee I am dozing off. Now how safe is that?

Of course this will probably all be a moot point soon.
 
I have recently completed transition training to a couple of slightly different flavors of technically advanced aircraft, and the one thing I have noticed (and others have pointed out on other threads) is that while airmanship skills are important to keep current, the aspects of managing the flight systems of a technically advanced aircraft also require understanding and currency so they do not become a hinderance to situational awareness and safe operation. Properly managing the autopilots of these aircraft are an important competency and give a pilot bandwidth to properly manage other aspects of flying the plane, including both complex systems and overall situational awareness.
This. Once you get into more complex systems where there are various lateral and vertical modes, you need to make sure you are programming correctly and pushing the right buttons at the appropriate time. It is definitely a learned skill. We are not just talking about engaging altitude and/or heading hold.
 
For me it is strictly about hand flying the plane keeping me safer. If I have an AP button, I can pretty much guarantee I am dozing off. Now how safe is that?

You can make that argument, but that's a personal issue, and doesn't have any bearing on the value of the tool to others as a group.

I would be less safe in a King Air than the 310. I also have zero knowledge of King Air systems, speeds, operating characteristics, etc. Does that mean the 310 is a safer plane? Not in my opinion.
 
Perhaps another factor in that line is that the non-professionals (of which I include myself) have the financial need to justify "tools" and thus tend to prioritize more. I certainly could "appreciate" an autopilot in my Cessna 170, ...even a simple wing leveler would be nice but I can't afford everything that would be nice, I have to justify the $$$$.

There's a difference between not having something because it's not in the budget and not thinking it adds value. Also, the plane's I got paid to fly usually only had the equipment necessary to do the job, and nothing more. Actually I'd say it was typically insufficient hardware that you then had to make due with, and that was part of the job.

The plane's I see that have the best toolkits are privately owned by individuals who fly themselves. Those people have the budget, understand the value, and are also typically closer to professional in how they act and make decisions.
 
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Perhaps another factor in that line is that the non-professionals (of which I include myself) have the financial need to justify "tools" and thus tend to prioritize more. I certainly could "appreciate" an autopilot in my Cessna 170, ...even a simple wing leveler would be nice but I can't afford everything that would be nice, I have to justify the $$$$.

And it seems AP price increases are far outpacing inflation -- causing even more "prioritization"... e.g. look at the over doubling of the price of a STEC AP since just the first half of the 2000s. Same units, over 100-200% price increases.

Seems like an opportunity for someone to do the AP market what Aspen did to the PFD/MFD market... The DFC-90 looks like a good start...
 
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The plane's I see that have the best toolkits are privately owned by individuals who fly themselves. Those people have the budget, understand the value, and are also typically closer to professional in how they act and make decisions.
I've seen more than a few of these guys who ".....have the budget," that seem to think they can compensate for their lack of experience, skill and confidence with equipment. One fellow I rode with (well to do rancher) in his VERY well equipped (for the time, 20 years ago)twin Comanche including an autopilot that'd level off at a pre-selected altitude plus track a VOR radial or a localizer including the glidesope.....COOL. I asked him "what does it do when you cross the cone of confusion over the VOR station? His reply......"I don't know?"
".......professional in how they act and make decisions." :rolleyes:
 
No doubt, you also have the people who just like to spend money and are unprofessional. Seen plenty of them, too.
 
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