SIDs and STARs

Jon Weiswasser

Jon Weiswasser

Pre-takeoff checklist
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J Weiswasser
How many of you get assigned STAR’s? I find that the larger the airport or the more complex the airspace, the more likely I am to get one. In the Meridian, however, I rarely get the ‘descend via’ instruction; I’m usually given lower much earlier to get out of the way of faster traffic.

I recently got assigned one going into Dulles/KIAD which I caught on video.

Ep4 SS Star.png
 
Not often, but I have received both DPs and STARs in light aircraft much slower than your Meridian. DPs more often than STARs. The SIDs have typically been associated with busier airspace (although not necessarily busy airports). That just makes sense to me since they are just shorthand for clearances and shorthand makes more sense in Metropolis than in Smallville.
 
I get a SID every time I fly out of my airport. I’ve only gotten a STAR a handful of times.
 
Every time I fly down to the DFW area from the OKC area, I get a STAR. Depending on which airport I start at, I get a SID as well.

Coming back, I get a SID but never end up flying any of it (TEXOMA DEPARTURE) and will sometimes initial get a STAR back into the OKC area but usually end up getting direct at some point.

This is in everything from a 172 on up.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not often, but I have received both DPs and STARs in light aircraft much slower than your Meridian. DPs more often than STARs. The SIDs have typically been associated with busier airspace (although not necessarily busy airports). That just makes sense to me since they are just shorthand for clearances and shorthand makes more sense in Metropolis than in Smallville.
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Completely agree. They are like macros. I like them for their efficiency that way. Either way, thanks for reaching out and I hope you enjoy the videos. Subscribe to the channel if you like.
 
Given that 95% of my flying is in small GA aircraft, I've almost never done SIDs or STARs. We are usually too low and too slow and would just cause problems. The rare SID I have been assigned, usually just winds up being radar vectors. Never understood why they can't just say radar vectors versus the name of a SID. First time I received one of those I started digging for the plate, just to find it was a RV departure. :rolleyes:
 
Fairly often actually.. especially, but not always, flying into airports that see commercial airline traffic. The altitudes I get are usually way below though what the procedure actually calls for..
 
I fly into Class B Houston and DFW very frequently. To the "major" airports in each as well as the smaller, business oriented airports. Generally, I always file an IFR flight plan into and out of each and WITH the corresponding SID or STAR. That usually ensures a "direct as filed" and makes getting the clearance easier and quicker. Now....usually when in VMC I will be vectored rather quickly off of the STAR sometimes and the SID very quickly and given "direct" to my destination, which of course is part of the plan and what I am hoping for. In IMC, that is another matter. Under IMC I usually will fly the STAR and and even most of the SID when leaving.
 
Interesting. Basically, the consensus seems to be the same as what I present in the video.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Given that 95% of my flying is in small GA aircraft, I've almost never done SIDs or STARs. We are usually too low and too slow and would just cause problems. The rare SID I have been assigned, usually just winds up being radar vectors. Never understood why they can't just say radar vectors versus the name of a SID. First time I received one of those I started digging for the plate, just to find it was a RV departure. :rolleyes:
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I was departing Phoenix (KPHX) late one night. Because the RADAR was not working, I was given a lengthy departure procedure that took several minutes to load in the GPS. I took off, tower had my initial heading in a southwest direction, my destination was north east. Departure turned me south, and as soon as I hit 10,000msl I got direct destination....

I kinda felt cheated because I spent so much time getting it into my GPS.
 
All - here's a 45s description of what I'm going for with these videos... Lemme know what you think, and subscribe if you like.
 
Question Jon. I watched your second video (made me want to visit the Rock n Roll hall of fame next time I visit my brother in law). I noticed you were alone. Doesn't the rest of the group travel with you?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Question Jon. I watched your second video (made me want to visit the Rock n Roll hall of fame next time I visit my brother in law). I noticed you were alone. Doesn't the rest of the group travel with you?
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Great question. I was alone that trip. It all depends on my schedule and theirs... One guy drives the trailer with the crew, one guy's wife won't let him fly, another guy lives too far from me to make that practical, etc... So, usually I have one or two, occasionally three, with me. You'll see in the upcoming episodes the others who fly with me. Tomorrow, I'm off to IAD again, and then to Harrisburg on Saturday, and maybe a nighttime return saturday night. Thanks for reaching out.
 
Zeldman said:
I was departing Phoenix (KPHX) late one night. Because the RADAR was not working, I was given a lengthy departure procedure that took several minutes to load in the GPS. I took off, tower had my initial heading in a southwest direction, my destination was north east. Departure turned me south, and as soon as I hit 10,000msl I got direct destination....

I kinda felt cheated because I spent so much time getting it into my GPS.
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I had this happen recently too. 10 minutes of button pushing, take off, climb and contact departure. Cleared direct. Sigh.
 
In the DFW area, SIDs and STARs are frequent assignments. I don’t think I have ever had to fly the SID fully before getting vectors or a short cut. It seems like a normal part of the clearance procedure to assign it though.
 
At IAD a SID (CAPITAL xxx) is standard. The amusing thing is most times they don't really make best use of it by repeating things that are in the SID, sometimes repeating everything that's in the sid.
I've gotten a STAR a few times, but usually unless the field really is IFR, it's more expeditious to bring me in at an angle and drop me on final close in rather than trying to sequence me further out.
 
flyingron said:
The amusing thing is most times they don't really make best use of it by repeating things that are in the SID, sometimes repeating everything that's in the sid.
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This happens to me a lot too, and bugs me every time. Heading south out of one of my home airports (PWA), the usual SID is the MUDDE THREE.

https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1911/pdf/00739MUDDE.PDF

I will get a clearance of "Cleared to XXX via the MUDDE THREE departure, XXX, XXX, direct, maintain 3000, expect 9,000 10 minutes after departure, departure frequency will be 124.6, squawk 1234." And usually somewhere in there "on departure fly heading 201".

That's just repeating the SID. One of the main purposes for SIDs is specifically so they don't have to say all that.

So they could just say, "Cleared to XXX via the MUDDE THREE departure, XXX, XXX, direct, squawk 1234."

I can only imagine, though, that if they did that, so many pilots would ask "what frequency do you want me on?" and other similar questions, causing ATC to have to say it anyway. I should ask the controllers next time I talk to them.

Assuming that's the case, it's a training issue. SIDs and STARs have never been emphasized in training as much as they should. When I think about it, every time I file IFR down into the DFW area I fly a STAR. But most of the time I don't fly an approach (because it's VMC). So they should be given more time in training. As an example, this guy probably was just never trained on SIDs:

 
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I can only imagine, though, that if they did that, so many pilots would ask "what frequency do you want me on?" and other similar questions, causing ATC to have to say it anyway.
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I'd almost bet on it.
 
A proper SID use would be: Cleared to Charlotte via CAPITAL ONE HANEY. Squawk 4321.

No need for "then as filed" or "expect nnn" or a dearture frequency or anything else... it's all in the sid.
 
Gav1n said:
In the DFW area, SIDs and STARs are frequent assignments. I don’t think I have ever had to fly the SID fully before getting vectors or a short cut. It seems like a normal part of the clearance procedure to assign it though.
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This has been my experience departing from KDTO (Denton). Almost always provided vectors to the XXXX departure. But then once on with Regional Approach, the vectors continue until I'm nearly clear of the Bravo space and then I'm cleared direct to either the transition fix or my destination.

Then coming back on an IFR plan, I'm always issued a STAR.
 
Initial Fix said:
I had this happen recently too. 10 minutes of button pushing, take off, climb and contact departure. Cleared direct. Sigh.
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Which is why I love that we have a CNX80 in our Skylane. Entering a SID or STAR is an easy task.

As is hitting hitting the Direct To button to the final fix when 5 minutes after accepting the STAR, ATC clears me to the final fix.
 
RussR said:
So they should be given more time in training. As an example, this guy probably was just never trained on SIDs:
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I have that downloaded and saved for use in future IFR ground schools I'll teach.
 
I'm just always surprised when I see these vids and the person has a hangar at CDW. I've been on the waitlist for years...
 
wheaties said:
I'm just always surprised when I see these vids and the person has a hangar at CDW. I've been on the waitlist for years...
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Just so you know, I put my name on the wait list in 1994, just after I got my pilot's license. I didn't own anything but I was told that the list took forever. It so happened that my name came up shortly after I needed one, so don't despair (or think that it was obtained improperly).

Hope you liked the video at least.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I have that downloaded and saved for use in future IFR ground schools I'll teach.
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My video??? That's fantastic!!! Check out the others - they are all designed for the IFR pilot. Thank you for watching!
 
Just got back from another run to IAD (for show in Falls Church at the State Theater - it will be Episode 12) and I got a 'descend via' instruction as part of the HYPER7 arrival. So psyched when I get that - love 'using the system' etc.
 
Jon Weiswasser said:
My video??? That's fantastic!!! Check out the others - they are all designed for the IFR pilot. Thank you for watching!
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The video I referenced was the Mooney driver at KTKI who couldn’t get the clearance right
 
wheaties said:
I'm just always surprised when I see these vids and the person has a hangar at CDW. I've been on the waitlist for years...
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Also, are you in line for a small or a large hangar? Small ones are REALLY tough to get.
 
AggieMike88 said:
The video I referenced was the Mooney driver at KTKI who couldn’t get the clearance right
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LOL for real. Well, FWIW - the video I linked to above as part of my series is part of a collection that is meant to be of interest to instrument rated pilots especially.
 
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Initial Fix said:
I had this happen recently too. 10 minutes of button pushing, take off, climb and contact departure. Cleared direct. Sigh.
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I suppose all that button-pushing would have paid off if you went NORDO for some reason that didn't affect the navigation equipment.
 
In years past I have consistently been assigned the Point Reyes Arrival when flying IFR to Palo Alto (PAO) from northwest of the SF Bay Area. It always made me nervous to be beyond gliding-distance from land when I was abeam the Golden Gate.
 
Jon Weiswasser said:
Also, are you in line for a small or a large hangar? Small ones are REALLY tough to get.
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Small. Yeah, was told there's a 3yr waiting list. Good thing I haven't been able to find a plane I and my spouse can agree on.

Are the front seats on a Malibu as cramped as I've been told? Look like fun planes.
 
wheaties said:
Small. Yeah, was told there's a 3yr waiting list. Good thing I haven't been able to find a plane I and my spouse can agree on.

Are the front seats on a Malibu as cramped as I've been told? Look like fun planes.
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In my opinion, the cockpit is very comfortable once you are seated. Buy it is a #*&@ to get into the left (or right) seat. There is a spar you climb over and then just squeezing between the seats.

I have only flown a few 1990's era Malibus. I have heard that the new models are easier to get into the pilot's seat.

The plane in the video is a Meridian, but same airframe.

They are nice flying airplanes though. And I would love to have one!
 
wheaties said:
Small. Yeah, was told there's a 3yr waiting list. Good thing I haven't been able to find a plane I and my spouse can agree on.

Are the front seats on a Malibu as cramped as I've been told? Look like fun planes.
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Agree with the above; once you're in the seat, it is fine. You have to pretzel yourself to get there, but its not too much of a problem.
 
I really enjoyed your video. Nice work. I haven't flown into CDW in a few years, but always enjoyed my visits. When I got my PPL in 99, I would frequent CDW and MMU quite often, with my CFI for practice, because my flight school (MillionAir flight school) was at TEB (no schools there anymore, but there were two or three back then). T&Gs at TEB were not a good idea due to all of the jet traffic. I actually soloed at MMU.
If I recall correctly, back then, runway 10/28 at CDW was rwy-11/29 at that time.

Sweet airplane!
Nice band as well, but I'm a jazz man:D
Pat Metheny, Miles Davis...
 
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Thank you! Glad you like the videos, and please feel free to subscribe. I got my PPL in 93, and then moved to NYC and started flying at first out of TEB and then CDW (MacDan). And yeah, it was actually rwy 27. Also, glad you like the music angle - not sure how well that's playing with the aviation community but wanted to show that there was a REASON for all this flying.
 
Jon Weiswasser said:
Thank you! Glad you like the videos, and please feel free to subscribe. I got my PPL in 93, and then moved to NYC and started flying at first out of TEB and then CDW (MacDan). And yeah, it was actually rwy 27. Also, glad you like the music angle - not sure how well that's playing with the aviation community but wanted to show that there was a REASON for all this flying.
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Oh right, it was 27. I probably got confused due to spending over a decade working on runway 11/29 at EWR. Airfield electrician.

Yes, I will subscribe and watch more :)
 
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