Sick-out at American?

Greg Bockelman said:
Well, in my world, we have this fancy new flight planning tool (cough) that is supposed to optimize route and altitude. We are strongly encouraged to stay on the flight planned route. I HAVE seen instances where a shortcut would have added time and fuel burn to the over all flight.
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Interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks, Greg.
 
Art, that was a truly awesome rant. I like. Heh.

You guys... No imagination. You have a captive audience of millions.

Get every pilot together and convince the FAs to start rumors that a stock or commodity is going to go sky high, or drop -- and then long or short it with options against your portfolio of crap the airline gave you.

Now, do it with oil prices, and bank the fuel savings, too.

Don't you know how this game works yet? Haven't learned anything from management or their bankers over the last decade? Sheesh! Pilots are smart. ;)

hahahahaha. :) :) :)

(This plan has huge holes in it, but you complained you couldn't manipulate the stock price. Why bother manipulating your own?)
 
Art VanDelay said:
...But what good does any of it do if when you strike the Presidential Emergency Board forces you back to work ???
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I went through two PEB actions that prevented us from walking out, one was under Clinton and the second was under Bush 2. Ironically under the second one the PEB ended up giving us 25% more than what we were asking for when we declared the strike.
 
wsuffa said:
I would beg to differ. Aside from your "day to day tasks", there are little things that can make the difference between a "crappy" experience for passengers and an "outstanding" experience. Most passengers "get" that "stuff happens" and a lot of it's beyond your control. It's how the problems are handled that makes one want to come back vs not travel your livery again.

Case in point: I was on an international flight on a certain carrier one night. We were delayed a bit to resolve a seat problem in the business cabin. The captain took that time to come around to each passenger in the business cabin, thank us for traveling with them, show the route on a chart, and ask if there were any questions. He then walked through the economy cabin to apologize for the delay and thank folks. By the time he was done, the repair was made and we were ready to go. Lemons made into lemonade.

I can't count the number of times that the crew merely steps into the front office, closed the door, and made a PA that the flight would be delayed for indefinite time. Huge difference.

Similarly, the captain of another flight that was delayed due to catering error asked the passengers if they'd rather wait 45 minutes for catering or make the 2 hour trip with whatever was left on board from prior flight.

I've long held the opinion that every employee of a company is in a "sales" position - because the way they treat customers will lead to (or kill) future business. That's especially true in a cut-throat competitive service business.

All that is my opinion and experience from running businesses and having my butt shaped by airline seats for about 4 million miles over the years. You may well feel differently.

Profitability and stock price are driven by the efforts of ALL. In other words, no group alone can ensure good results, but any one can cause failure (a variation of corporate paralysis of 'no one can say yes, but 30 people can say no').
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Great story, I always try to personally interface with the passengers - guess what IT DOESN'T MAKE ONE BIT OF DIFFERENCE IN SHARE PRICE !!!!!!! I know I'm STUCK with 134 shares I watch the price EVERY FREAKING DAY and no matter how nice I am I haven't seen it go up. I bet if you told me who those carriers are we could look at their share price after each of those anecdotes AND SEE NO FREAKING CORRELATION !!!!
 
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Art VanDelay said:
Great story, I always try to personally interface with the passengers - guess what IT DOESN'T MAKE ONE BIT OF DIFFERENCE IN SHARE PRICE !!!!!!! I know I'm STUCK with 134 shares I watch the price EVERY FREAKING DAY and no matter how nice I am I haven't seen it go up. I bet if you told me who those carriers are we could look at their share price after each of those anecdotes AND SEE NO FREAKING CORRELATION !!!!
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While it it admirable that you try to provide good customer service you are not going to drive the stock price singlehandedly. I think what Bill was getting at was that your whole company, and I don't know who that is, might do better by being more customer-friendly. I don't think it would cost much more and your customers are the ones who are keeping you employed, after all.
 
Everskyward said:
I heard something on the frequency not too long ago which got my attention. Center offered American a shortcut. Everyone always wants a shortcut. But American replied, "We'll just stay on our flight planned route".
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Take a shortcut so we can sit on the ramp for an extra half hour waiting for a gate? Meh, as a pax that ****es me off more than if we hold entertainment altitude until we can land and pull up to the gate.
 
Little things can make an airline's reputation with passengers.

1 - LH. I've had excellent service on LH, including their holding a flight so a number of passengers could make the connection. Oh the other hand, until a couple years ago they lacked legroom in cattle car. I'm talking a 10 hour flight from FRA to CPT with my knees in the back of the seat in front of me. I'm very leary about riding LH because of that. I don't know if the legroom I actually had the last time I rode them was a mistake or not.

2. NH. Just had my first experience with them last Sunday and yesterday (Saturday). Food was Japanese, so I'll let that ride. But, their 777s between NRT and TPE were lacking in legroom. Not quite as bad as I remember that LH ride being, but still bad enough that my knees hurt when I got off the plane each way. The 767 from NRT to BKK last night wasn't as bad, but I'm really looking forward to E+ on UA going home (both legs) next Saturday. I'll avoid NH in the future if I have a choice.

Anything the flight crews can do about this? Nope, not a thing. Some bean counter wanted to stuff an extra row of seats into the plane. I understand the need for revenue, but sometimes you have to remember that passengers are NOT SELF LOADING CARGO and we get tired of being treated like it.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Great story, I always try to personally interface with the passengers - guess what IT DOESN'T MAKE ONE BIT OF DIFFERENCE IN SHARE PRICE !!!!!!! I know I'm STUCK with 134 shares I watch the price EVERY FREAKING DAY and no matter how nice I am I haven't seen it go up. I bet if you told me who those carriers are we could look at their share price after each of those anecdotes AND SEE NO FREAKING CORRELATION !!!!
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Share price is a long-term incentive (without regard to Wall Street's obsession with daily, weekly, and quarterly performance). That's why there is a different tax rate for long-term vs short-term capital gains - to encourage and reward long-term investing. It's also why most employee incentive plans use restricted stock, options, or restricted pools (ESPP/ESOP) instead of outright unrestricted stock grants.

Bonuses, payroll, benefits, etc. are short term incentives - the day-to-day stuff.

Mari is correct: my point was that it takes *everyone* to positively impact stock price... and it takes only *one* group to negatively impact stock price. If investors believe in the company and the entire team, you will be rewarded - if they think that there is labor trouble or anti-customer behavior it will wreck the stock price. Long-term performance is important. There are analysts that spend a lot of time dissecting labor, management, and customer service at companies and rendering an opinion on the investibility.

Yes, general economic conditions affect stock price, too, but the goal should be to outperform the "market" (or your industry). Ignore the day-to-day variations and focus on long term gains (or dividends if your company pays them).
 
So what specific business decisions are being made at AA to make a "long-term" airline out of it? :)
 
Art VanDelay said:
Man, if AA merges with USS Airways it's gonna be an epic mistake. They haven't even completed the Am West merger completely this is just gonna be more fuel to the fire. If the Legacy USAIR guys didn't like the AM West guys they're REALLY not gonna work and play well with the AA guys. Wow, what a mess.
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Biggest problem is, the US Airways - America West "merger" was really an acquisition of US by HP (why do you think their HQ is in Arizona?), but they kept then US name as a more appropriate name for a carrier with international presence. US was, absent the acquisition by HP, a dead man walking.

I would not be at all surprised to see AA and US together, eventually, but it will be AA doing the acquiring. Just watch.
 
wsuffa said:
Share price is a long-term incentive (without regard to Wall Street's obsession with daily, weekly, and quarterly performance). That's why there is a different tax rate for long-term vs short-term capital gains - to encourage and reward long-term investing. It's also why most employee incentive plans use restricted stock, options, or restricted pools (ESPP/ESOP) instead of outright unrestricted stock grants.

Bonuses, payroll, benefits, etc. are short term incentives - the day-to-day stuff.

Mari is correct: my point was that it takes *everyone* to positively impact stock price... and it takes only *one* group to negatively impact stock price. If investors believe in the company and the entire team, you will be rewarded - if they think that there is labor trouble or anti-customer behavior it will wreck the stock price. Long-term performance is important. There are analysts that spend a lot of time dissecting labor, management, and customer service at companies and rendering an opinion on the investibility.

Yes, general economic conditions affect stock price, too, but the goal should be to outperform the "market" (or your industry). Ignore the day-to-day variations and focus on long term gains (or dividends if your company pays them).
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:yes:

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Art - you have a pretty bad attitude. Life gives you lemons . . . well you know the rest. You can change things by bringing a positive attitude to the job and by displaying that attitude every day.

Maybe you can't overtly change anything in the short run - but are you the Captain? You can, while the crew is under your control, insist on nothing but understanding, human and professional service. You can give examples and you can lead. You can make certain that you are not a cargo pilot. Maybe you can speak up the rampant azzholes in your pilot group who think that a job action which directly affects only your paying customers is not the way to display anger at management. Personal gain rarely comes without personal risk.

Southwest has long 'hired for attitude and train for proficiency' because you cannot train an attitude outside the military.

The problem with the airlines today is that essentially there are only 5 left, UA/AA/US/WN/DL, and WN does not really count for many reasons given the route network and the lack of being able to get from point a to b without going through e,f and g.

So if AA pi$$es you off, and you switch to UA, its only a mtter of time before UA does the same thing. Then you move to DL and pretty soon they've done it too. The carriers do not care about the people - they care about the revenue. Period. They've disconnected service to people with the collection of revenue and taken any possible authority away from the employees to affect anything positively. you used to be able to standby for an earlier flight and if there was a seat - who really cared? Now its a fee- or a fare change - and you get hammered every single step of the way.

If its Friday night, and you want to catch the 5p flight from ORD-LAX instead of the 615 - and they have seats - and the 730 and 845 are all oversold - why don't they just give you the seat they are going to need later? I've had several situations where I've tried just that - and then received $1600 in vouchers for ultimately being accommodated on the 915 flight. I asked UA to put me in a open seat that they ended up putting non-revs in - and they refused to do it - and they ended up giving me $1600 in vouchers - I've played that game 3 times in the last year. I have not BOUGHT a ticket from UAL now in 9 months. Is that stupid? Whereas back in the day the gate agents were empowered to exercise common sense - not any more - common sense is now a revenue stream.

AA is doomed. Ancient airplanes. Ancient surly workforce - just look at Art here. Ancient business model. There is ZERO reason why any employee group should take any deal - they'll be out the door in 24 months anyway.
 
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denverpilot said:
So what specific business decisions are being made at AA to make a "long-term" airline out of it? :)
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The unions don't know and don't care - all they want is the best 'deal' on money - even if they refuse to acknowledge that with the same management nothing is changing.
 
comanchepilot said:
.....- they'll be out the door in 24 months anyway.
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I respect your posts as they always are well written and your intelligence shows...... But...

Art is voicing his concern as to "why" he should bust his butt and just get shafted in the end as your post clearly states... Corp cares about profits and to hell with the people. which indirectly translates to their employess too.:yes: IMHO.
 
N801BH said:
I respect your posts as they always are well written and your intelligence shows...... But...

Art is voicing his concern as to "why" he should bust his butt and just get shafted in the end as your post clearly states... Corp cares about profits and to hell with the people. which indirectly translates to their employess too.:yes: IMHO.
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He should bust his hump for the same reason that anyone should bust their hump - they have a job and they want to keep it.

I understand human emotions around this - like anyone. It's a perfectly normal human reaction. But then so is panic and fear. Training is designed to prevent that - just like being an adult is designed to prevent childish reactions.

But if he truly believes what he believes then he should vote no on the contract offer and help put the company into liquidation - what he should REALLY do is go work for someone else.

The refusal to go work for someone else takes the normal human reaction defense out of the process- now his reaction and his response or lack thereof is a choice.
 
comanchepilot said:
He should bust his hump for the same reason that anyone should bust their hump - they have a job and they want to keep it.

I understand human emotions around this - like anyone. It's a perfectly normal human reaction. But then so is panic and fear. Training is designed to prevent that - just like being an adult is designed to prevent childish reactions.

But if he truly believes what he believes then he should vote no on the contract offer and help put the company into liquidation - what he should REALLY do is go work for someone else.

The refusal to go work for someone else takes the normal human reaction defense out of the process- now his reaction and his response or lack thereof is a choice.
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I don't think Art actually works at AA. He's at another major.
 
N801BH said:
Different animal... same spots..:yes::(
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For the most part this is true. For some ridiculous reason all majors have a business model that rapes their best customers by charging them a multiple of what their worst customers pay for the same seat. This is based on the belief that the way to run an airline is to get the very highest price for each seat on a flight. In my opinion a better way would be to maximize the profit from each customer or potential customer like just about every other business does. An equally important reason why airline service is so bad is because the flying public seems to be totally unwilling to pay extra for safety or service.

However having said all that, for at least the last few years, AA has been noticeably worse by almost any metric than the other majors. So there is a difference but it's choosing between which rotten apple looks the least worst.
 
IME it's been a luck-of-the-draw deal for the most part, although I haven't traveled since the union started the bogus MX delay game. Any carrier can have a bad day, and AA can (and does) have some good ones.

Since my exposure to their ineptitude is limited to less than a half-dozen legs per year, most of which are FF trips, I just take a book and hope for the best.
Wingsofglass said:
For the most part this is true. For some ridiculous reason all majors have a business model that rapes their best customers by charging them a multiple of what their worst customers pay for the same seat. This is based on the belief that the way to run an airline is to get the very highest price for each seat on a flight. In my opinion a better way would be to maximize the profit from each customer or potential customer like just about every other business does. An equally important reason why airline service is so bad is because the flying public seems to be totally unwilling to pay extra for safety or service.

However having said all that, for at least the last few years, AA has been noticeably worse by almost any metric than the other majors. So there is a difference but it's choosing between which rotten apple looks the least worst.
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denverpilot said:
Which part of the job he was hired for is he not doing?
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Doing a job involves omission and commission. Its not all about part of the job you are 'not' doing . . .it also involves what you should be doing and are not. Attitude is important. If you go into a job expecting to be miserable then you are going to be miserable.

My God, man, someone is paying you to fly an airplane.
 
I think I've been paid for every job I've had, including flying airplanes. Flying for someone else was OK for a while but much more fun when flying for myself.

I had jump-seat privilege (with Captain's approval that was never denied) on AA and DL for several years prior to 9-11 and was privy to many of the "behind closed door" conversations among the crews. My impression of their flying skills and standardization couldn't be higher, but I frankly thought they got a bit wrapped around the axle on some of the work rule and political issues.

I think Les Abend presents a pretty good perspective of 121 flying in his column in Flying Magazine.

comanchepilot said:
Doing a job involves omission and commission. Its not all about part of the job you are 'not' doing . . .it also involves what you should be doing and are not. Attitude is important. If you go into a job expecting to be miserable then you are going to be miserable.

My God, man, someone is paying you to fly an airplane.
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Rex Kramer said:
Well ****, it's so fun I should just do it for free!
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Yup. It's real easy to sit on the sidelines and say how awesome getting paid to fly must be. It's not real easy too see how difficult things can be when people that make decisions have zero grasp on how an aircraft works and limitations an aircraft faces.
 
comanchepilot said:
The unions don't know and don't care - all they want is the best 'deal' on money - even if they refuse to acknowledge that with the same management nothing is changing.
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Nonsense, the unions and management are negotiating a contract. They both know exactly what is going on - far more so than anyone who is not directly involved in it. The contract is a complex agreement and the negotiations inevitably sink to a level of brinkmanship and I mean every time.

It's not unlike a political campaign and what you hear from either side is going to be based on the fact that both of them think the other is their mortal enemy.

That's the problem we have to fix and decimating labor unions isn't going accomplish it.
 
comanchepilot said:
My God, man, someone is paying you to fly an airplane.
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And that's when you start flying an airplane at times you don't particularly want to to places you don't particularly want to go in weather that sucks.

So, by God, whoever is paying you to do it should pay you pretty darn well.
 
Silvaire said:
And that's when you start flying an airplane at times you don't particularly want to to places you don't particularly want to go in weather that sucks.

So, by God, whoever is paying you to do it should pay you pretty darn well.
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:yes:
 
Rex Kramer said:
Well ****, it's so fun I should just do it for free!
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You guys are soooo funny. No one ever said you should do it for free. You go right on telling me how miserable it is. Why are doing it then? You are not qualified to sling bags? You liked it at one point. And the way to discover that emotion again is to disassociate the human element of the negotiations with management from what you do. Your 'job' is not dealing with management.

Look, everyone knows that the 1055p arrival and the 0701a departure are common on layovers. You can't really enjoy Paris or London or Shanghai because you are exhausted, and its never easy to land the airplane to minimums at 4a local body clock time. Add bs rules and the idea that there are crazies on the other side of the door add to the stress.

But if you can't say that the sunset you saw over the tropics last month makes it all go away, or sitting under a canopy of stars in the middle of a meteor shower, and the northern lights or the midnight sun . . . .ok. If you don't have days like that then perhaps your time in the cockpit has run out. . . .
 
Silvaire said:
Nonsense, the unions and management are negotiating a contract. They both know exactly what is going on - far more so than anyone who is not directly involved in it. The contract is a complex agreement and the negotiations inevitably sink to a level of brinkmanship and I mean every time.

It's not unlike a political campaign and what you hear from either side is going to be based on the fact that both of them think the other is their mortal enemy.

That's the problem we have to fix and decimating labor unions isn't going accomplish it.
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Nor is demonizing management.
 
Lawyers ***** too, but most of them continue to practice because it's a better gig than they could get anywhere else. With or without sunsets.
comanchepilot said:
You guys are soooo funny. No one ever said you should do it for free. You go right on telling me how miserable it is. Why are doing it then? You are not qualified to sling bags? You liked it at one point. And the way to discover that emotion again is to disassociate the human element of the negotiations with management from what you do. Your 'job' is not dealing with management.

Look, everyone knows that the 1055p arrival and the 0701a departure are common on layovers. You can't really enjoy Paris or London or Shanghai because you are exhausted, and its never easy to land the airplane to minimums at 4a local body clock time. Add bs rules and the idea that there are crazies on the other side of the door add to the stress.

But if you can't say that the sunset you saw over the tropics last month makes it all go away, or sitting under a canopy of stars in the middle of a meteor shower, and the northern lights or the midnight sun . . . .ok. If you don't have days like that then perhaps your time in the cockpit has run out. . . .
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wsuffa said:
I would beg to differ. Aside from your "day to day tasks", there are little things that can make the difference between a "crappy" experience for passengers and an "outstanding" experience. Most passengers "get" that "stuff happens" and a lot of it's beyond your control. It's how the problems are handled that makes one want to come back vs not travel your livery again.

Case in point: I was on an international flight on a certain carrier one night. We were delayed a bit to resolve a seat problem in the business cabin. The captain took that time to come around to each passenger in the business cabin, thank us for traveling with them, show the route on a chart, and ask if there were any questions. He then walked through the economy cabin to apologize for the delay and thank folks. By the time he was done, the repair was made and we were ready to go. Lemons made into lemonade.

I can't count the number of times that the crew merely steps into the front office, closed the door, and made a PA that the flight would be delayed for indefinite time. Huge difference.

Similarly, the captain of another flight that was delayed due to catering error asked the passengers if they'd rather wait 45 minutes for catering or make the 2 hour trip with whatever was left on board from prior flight.

I've long held the opinion that every employee of a company is in a "sales" position - because the way they treat customers will lead to (or kill) future business. That's especially true in a cut-throat competitive service business.

All that is my opinion and experience from running businesses and having my butt shaped by airline seats for about 4 million miles over the years. You may well feel differently.

Profitability and stock price are driven by the efforts of ALL. In other words, no group alone can ensure good results, but any one can cause failure (a variation of corporate paralysis of 'no one can say yes, but 30 people can say no').
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While I agree with you when it comes to Customer Service Agents and other front line positions, an airline pilot job is NOT a customer service position (other pilot jobs such as charter and CFI are customer service jobs due to direct customer contact). The airline pilot's job is to move the plane from point A to point B safely and efficiently and that's where the focus should be.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Man, if AA merges with USS Airways it's gonna be an epic mistake. They haven't even completed the Am West merger completely this is just gonna be more fuel to the fire. If the Legacy USAIR guys didn't like the AM West guys they're REALLY not gonna work and play well with the AA guys. Wow, what a mess.
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No kidding...Last I heard certain Airways East captains are still denying Airways West pilots jumpseats.
 
SCCutler said:
Biggest problem is, the US Airways - America West "merger" was really an acquisition of US by HP (why do you think their HQ is in Arizona?), but they kept then US name as a more appropriate name for a carrier with international presence. US was, absent the acquisition by HP, a dead man walking.
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I believe you are correct.

However, to illustrate how deep the rift between East and West goes, I was talking to a US Airways pilot I knew a few months ago and mentioned something along those lines.....he became rather upset and began to lecture me on how it was US Airways who 'bought'; America West.

I said "you must be an East guy..."

His response "YES!"
 
Fearless Tower said:
I believe you are correct.

However, to illustrate how deep the rift between East and West goes, I was talking to a US Airways pilot I knew a few months ago and mentioned something along those lines.....he became rather upset and began to lecture me on how it was US Airways who 'bought'; America West.

I said "you must be an East guy..."

His response "YES!"
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Funny how they try to back up their argument with 100% false information...
 
comanchepilot said:
You guys are soooo funny. No one ever said you should do it for free. You go right on telling me how miserable it is. Why are doing it then? You are not qualified to sling bags? You liked it at one point. And the way to discover that emotion again is to disassociate the human element of the negotiations with management from what you do. Your 'job' is not dealing with management.

Look, everyone knows that the 1055p arrival and the 0701a departure are common on layovers. You can't really enjoy Paris or London or Shanghai because you are exhausted, and its never easy to land the airplane to minimums at 4a local body clock time. Add bs rules and the idea that there are crazies on the other side of the door add to the stress.

But if you can't say that the sunset you saw over the tropics last month makes it all go away, or sitting under a canopy of stars in the middle of a meteor shower, and the northern lights or the midnight sun . . . .ok. If you don't have days like that then perhaps your time in the cockpit has run out. . . .
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You do have days like that. Flying is awesome. Doing a landing in a 40kt xwnd is awesome. A 300RVR approach is awesome. Getting paid to do something that I love is awesome. My mortgage company, however, doesn't care how great my layover in Rome was or how cool the northern lights look up at 85N. They want money. My retirement wants money. My kids' college funds wants money.

Likewise, my family, even being a complete "airline family" who is used to having Thanksgiving in Dec and maybe Xmas in Jan, doesn't care how awesome my layover was in HKG. My two year old wants me home.


Flying is great. Getting paid to fly is great. Great job.

However, it's about money and days off. I'm fortunate in that I do "eh" and "exceptionally good" on the former and latter. I'm striving to do "exceptionally good" in both.
 
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