Sick-out at American?

First of all, the sick calls for Americans' pilots are NOT statistically above normal. Those who feel otherwise are victims of adver, er,...CNN. The pilots at AMR simply decided to do their jobs and their jobs alone. If there aren't ramp personell at the gate apon arrival, oh well...they'll wait 'til they get there. Never mind they're burning 200gals/hr.
AA has had over 160M in FAA fines for maint violations. Most pilots think it is in the best interest of the company to make sure every i is dotted and t is crossed. Note: A soiled seat cushion means one passenger won't board unless and until it gets replaced. Might seem silly when you're seated on the plane, awaiting pushback, but if it were your seat...
Want pilots to lobby ATC for short cuts, fly at the optimum fuel saving altitude, do every thing they can to make money for the company? Pay a substandard price and and you get substandard enthusiasm from employees. AA employees took huge consessions (particularly the pilots) after 9/11 to keep the airline out of Ch11, since then, upper management has rewarded themselves with hundreds of millions in bonuses - while the airline slipped from first to worse in every measureable category, then declared BK with 5B in the bank, just so they can wipe the slate of current retirement obligations, as well as stick it to already retired AMR employees. Parker is no angel, but at least he wants to run an airline...rather than just code share.

Most AA pilots love their job and what they do for a living. They also care deeply for every AA passenger. That said, they also know that (given the current political environment - in which the only people who should make a good living are executives and Wall st bankers) the only reason any pilot in the USA makes more than a burger flipper is because when it counted, those pilots were willing to do whatever it took to turn the tide. If more people did some of that French truck driver stuff in the USA, maybe the country would look a little less like Northern Mexico than it does currently.

Want someone to blame for AAs dismal performance? Look to the scoundrels who managed to anger 85,000 AMR employees. AMR, and for that matter, most airlines run almost entirely due to the efforts of the rank and file employees. Without their love and affection, any service business will flounder. Horton, et al should be fired and their severence packages should be used to restore the retirement of the group he's trying to rob.
 
.....................85,000 AMR employees. AMR, and for that matter, most airlines run almost entirely due to the efforts of the rank and file employees. Without their love and affection, any service business will flounder. Horton, et al should be fired and their severence packages should be used to restore the retirement of the group he's trying to rob.

I hear this all the time....... If you really think the management is that bad then why don't all of the 85,000 employees pool their assets and have the union buy the company ?:dunno::dunno:..

Then you can run it to suit your ideas.... ;)
 
Flying is great. Getting paid to fly is great. Great job.

However, it's about money and days off. I'm fortunate in that I do "eh" and "exceptionally good" on the former and latter. I'm striving to do "exceptionally good" in both.

This is the heart of the matter.

Consider a really smart, employable person twenty years ago, who could pick from a variety of options to find the money vs. quality of life sweet spot, and 'Major Airline Pilot Career' is right up there.

Now, not so much. That career is turning into a job, and the quality of the talent pool has taken a hit, with further quality declines going forward, IMHO.
 
Depends on who was making the call and the criteria used for determining the sweet spot. I've been watching airline jobs since the 60's and haven't seen a sweet spot yet. The disadvantages, risks and uncertainties have always far outweighed the potential for earning a decent pay-check after many years of servitude.

This is the heart of the matter.

Consider a really smart, employable person twenty years ago, who could pick from a variety of options to find the money vs. quality of life sweet spot, and 'Major Airline Pilot Career' is right up there.

Now, not so much. That career is turning into a job, and the quality of the talent pool has taken a hit, with further quality declines going forward, IMHO.
 
Selling the airline may be the best thing, becuase, well, humans get tired. I had an AA captain, 75/767 on reserve the last six years (not enough seniority, no growth) come in and tell me it was his last flight physical. He had missed too many of his middle school kids' events and 41 was his last year available to join the family real estate business.

He'll be back for 3rd class medicals- his dad flies a Centurion. But he got tired of the life which just dragged on and on.

Sign me, "25 years on one hour reserve and glad I'm off of it."
 
This is the heart of the matter.

Consider a really smart, employable person twenty years ago, who could pick from a variety of options to find the money vs. quality of life sweet spot, and 'Major Airline Pilot Career' is right up there.

Now, not so much. That career is turning into a job, and the quality of the talent pool has taken a hit, with further quality declines going forward, IMHO.

Even twenty years ago being an airline pilot was not so attractive to me, so I shied away even knowing that my income would probably be less in other areas of aviation.
 
I hear this all the time....... If you really think the management is that bad then why don't all of the 85,000 employees pool their assets and have the union buy the company ?:dunno::dunno:..

Then you can run it to suit your ideas.... ;)

Ask the folks at UAL how THAT worked out.
 
Ask the folks at UAL how THAT worked out.

I am going to defer to you since you are in that industry.......

I can see two reasons UA failed... if it really did fail..

1- the airline was in such bad shape, for whatever reason, that this buyout from their employees was destined to not work and the employees threw good money after bad at a loosing business... That is a poor investment on their part..

2- The management they brought in to run the show was incompetent and ruined the business... That was a poor decision on their part..

Is there another reason it didn't work out ? Honestly , I didn't follow the deal at all... :no:
 
Wanna know what killed airlines? Deregulation, allowing market forces to determine price, because there's always some ******* willing to lose money undercutting you to take your business figuring they'll make it up later.
 
Wanna know what killed airlines? Deregulation, allowing market forces to determine price, because there's always some ******* willing to lose money undercutting you to take your business figuring they'll make it up later.

how come those same *******s don't run gas stations ?:dunno::dunno::D
 
So what's the obvious strategy in such a situation? Fold your tent? Sit and cry? Tell mommy the mean old competition isn't playing fair?

Wanna know what killed airlines? Deregulation, allowing market forces to determine price, because there's always some ******* willing to lose money undercutting you to take your business figuring they'll make it up later.
 
how come those same *******s don't run gas stations ?:dunno::dunno::D

Remember "Gas Wars" where they were bottoming out prices? I remember as a kid there was an intersection by the house with 4 stations at 5&6 cents per gallon.
 
Remember "Gas Wars" where they were bottoming out prices? I remember as a kid there was an intersection by the house with 4 stations at 5&6 cents per gallon.

Cheapest I remember was 31 cents back in 72..... I was the night manager at a Texaco station owned by Larry Costely Chevy on Kendall Dr, across the street from the Dadeland Mall in 73... the shortage was kicking in then and rationing was in place... odd /even , tag number deal. Price shot up to 39 cents and people freaked out... ah... the good ol days.
 
When was the last year USA enjoyed a trade surplus? What happened to kill it forever?

Cheapest I remember was 31 cents back in 72..... I was the night manager at a Texaco station owned by Larry Costely Chevy on Kendall Dr, across the street from the Dadeland Mall in 73... the shortage was kicking in then and rationing was in place... odd /even , tag number deal. Price shot up to 39 cents and people freaked out... ah... the good ol days.
 
Wanna know what killed airlines? Deregulation, allowing market forces to determine price, because there's always some ******* willing to lose money undercutting you to take your business figuring they'll make it up later.


Pretty much sums it up right there.
 
Cheapest I remember was 31 cents back in 72..... I was the night manager at a Texaco station owned by Larry Costely Chevy on Kendall Dr, across the street from the Dadeland Mall in 73... the shortage was kicking in then and rationing was in place... odd /even , tag number deal. Price shot up to 39 cents and people freaked out... ah... the good ol days.
When I was 12 or 13 I used to get gas for my boat at a price around $0.20/gallon in the Detroit metro area and the same brand stations were selling for almost twice that upstate.
 
What magic does the big bad dude have that you don't?

Just the ability to con investors into some business plan where he will sell tickets for way below cost in order to grab market share with the hopes of raising ticket prices later. 95% of the time he will be out of business in a few years and will have done nothing but loose a bunch of money and force other airlines to compete against his unrealistic business model. With the ease of getting into the industry, there is always another "big bad dude" with a "Better" plan to take his place and keep the cycle going.
 
All businesses face this issue. Those that survive figure out ways to best serve their market even though their prices aren't the cheapest.

Just the ability to con investors into some business plan where he will sell tickets for way below cost in order to grab market share with the hopes of raising ticket prices later. 95% of the time he will be out of business in a few years and will have done nothing but loose a bunch of money and force other airlines to compete against his unrealistic business model. With the ease of getting into the industry, there is always another "big bad dude" with a "Better" plan to take his place and keep the cycle going.
 
All businesses face this issue. Those that survive figure out ways to best serve their market even though their prices aren't the cheapest.

True. But the airlines that are still around have managed to cope by decreasing service and greatly decreasing the pay, benefits, lifestyle, and career expectations of their frontline employees. By any measure, the pilots have taken the biggest hit by far. While some people say they'll pay a little more for better service, market reality shows that they will choose the cheapest flight unless they have some other reason like a frequent flyer status. The end results are poor customer satisfaction and the approaching pilot shortage.
 
True. But the airlines that are still around have managed to cope by decreasing service and greatly decreasing the pay, benefits, lifestyle, and career expectations of their frontline employees. By any measure, the pilots have taken the biggest hit by far. While some people say they'll pay a little more for better service, market reality shows that they will choose the cheapest flight unless they have some other reason like a frequent flyer status. The end results are poor customer satisfaction and the approaching pilot shortage.

Three comments:
1) Southwest has profited pretty well over the years.
2) Delta is a much better run business these days, and has a more collaborative management structure. It is profitable, but many of the frequent flyers (and others) complain about high fees, reduced benefits, and "no waivers, no favors" toward customers. According to a recent WSJ article the CEO learned from his time working for the CEO of one of the big health-care insurance companies.
3) An approaching pilot shortage will result in one of two things: reduced service due to lack of crews, or higher wages to increase the employee base. I doubt we'll see single-pilot airliners. The industry is NOT immune to the laws of economics.
 
I think the unplayed card in the pilot comp deck is the airlines' ability to lobby congress for even more exemptions and/or delays to the full implementation of the 1,500 hour rule. They have proven that they can attract a sufficient flock of sheep that are willing to be shorn to their existing pay scales if they can skirt the ATP requirements, so I expect that they will start withdrawing or reducing small-market service and resulting customer ire will be vented on the hill.
 
All businesses face this issue. Those that survive figure out ways to best serve their market even though their prices aren't the cheapest.

NO business faces the number of variables that a deregulated airline does. To simply compare a solution that worked at an entirely different industry or to intimate that a solution is easily at hand would show a high level of lack of understanding to the forces at play.

I enjoy earnestly watching CNBC whenever they feature some self ascribed business "expert" weighing in on the airline sector. The mantra is ALWAYS the same - "well, clearly it's a failed business model " - gee ya think ? What's this Einstein going to enlighten us with next - news that dinosaurs are extinct ??? But NEVER once have I heard a VIABLE, COGENT solution. As a matter of fact nobody but a true egotist actually wants to even take a swing at trying to run one.
You never hear of some esteemed university MBA professor standing up with any kind of a real solution.

The U.S. airline industry is probably one of if not THE MOST regulated deregulated industries in the world. It's the "Kobyasha Maru" of the business world ! It makes Pachinko look easily winnable in comparison to trying to run a consistantly profitable international U.S. airline. And notice I said INTERNATIONAL - that kind of leaves out southwest - which by the way currently has the highest labor costs in the entire U.S. airline industry a fact which may bite them as they run up against a leaner AA coming out of a bankruptcy.
 
I think the unplayed card in the pilot comp deck is the airlines' ability to lobby congress for even more exemptions and/or delays to the full implementation of the 1,500 hour rule. They have proven that they can attract a sufficient flock of sheep that are willing to be shorn to their existing pay scales if they can skirt the ATP requirements, so I expect that they will start withdrawing or reducing small-market service and resulting customer ire will be vented on the hill.

In a world with a REPUBLICAN president I could maybe see that. In our current situation I see them saying something like "well how does Europe do it ?" and "Lets do what they do". Keep in mind - this 1500 hour issue was not brought up through the FAA's rule-making methods - its a PUBLIC LAW. Much like a freight train it cannot be stopped. It WILL go into effect.
 
Sure they do, Art. They just look at the cards and decide if they have a winning hand. If they don't they fold. And every US company that competes globally faces exactly the same issues. The deck is always stacked in favor of the house, but if you have a sufficiently strong hand you may win some pots. A Dallas-based cosmetic company fares very well against all competitors in China. One of its most modern plants is located there, due to local law that requires products sold there to be made there. The business is hugely profitable and the company loves the margins, but they are always looking over their shoulder to see what's coming next.

NO business faces the number of variables that a deregulated airline does. To simply compare a solution that worked at an entirely different industry or to intimate that a solution is easily at hand would show a high level of lack of understanding to the forces at play.

I enjoy earnestly watching CNBC whenever they feature some self ascribed business "expert" weighing in on the airline sector. The mantra is ALWAYS the same - "well, clearly it's a failed business model " - gee ya think ? What's this Einstein going to enlighten us with next - news that dinosaurs are extinct ??? But NEVER once have I heard a VIABLE, COGENT solution. As a matter of fact nobody but a true egotist actually wants to even take a swing at trying to run one.
You never hear of some esteemed university MBA professor standing up with any kind of a real solution.

The U.S. airline industry is probably one of if not THE MOST regulated deregulated industries in the world. It's the "Kobyasha Maru" of the business world ! It makes Pachinko look easily winnable in comparison to trying to run a consistantly profitable international U.S. airline. And notice I said INTERNATIONAL - that kind of leaves out southwest - which by the way currently has the highest labor costs in the entire U.S. airline industry a fact which may bite them as they run up against a leaner AA coming out of a bankruptcy.
 
Sure they do, Art. They just look at the cards and decide if they have a winning hand. If they don't they fold. And every US company that competes globally faces exactly the same issues. The deck is always stacked in favor of the house, but if you have a sufficiently strong hand you may win some pots. A Dallas-based cosmetic company fares very well against all competitors in China. One of its most modern plants is located there, due to local law that requires products sold there to be made there. The business is hugely profitable and the company loves the margins, but they are always looking over their shoulder to see what's coming next.

Yeah, there we go again applying apples to oranges. What a cosmetics company does in Dallas is an enormous over simplification. " Why we'll just do exactly what they do and poof - problems solved ". Sure would be nice if it were that simple.
 
Cheapest I remember was 31 cents back in 72..... I was the night manager at a Texaco station owned by Larry Costely Chevy on Kendall Dr, across the street from the Dadeland Mall in 73... the shortage was kicking in then and rationing was in place... odd /even , tag number deal. Price shot up to 39 cents and people freaked out... ah... the good ol days.

Er..... Small world alert. I was pumping gas at the Mobil station on US 1 & 104th st. in 73. People were tipping 2.00 (big bucks) to "forget" to stop the pump at 10 gals. Our price was .01 more than the Union 76. When they changed, we'd change. Instantly.
 
Er..... Small world alert. I was pumping gas at the Mobil station on US 1 & 104th st. in 73. People were tipping 2.00 (big bucks) to "forget" to stop the pump at 10 gals. Our price was .01 more than the Union 76. When they changed, we'd change. Instantly.

Real small world... I was the day manager of the KFC right down the street from your Mobil station.. I got to hate eatin chicken,, thank god for Shortys BBQ.. ;)
 
Real small world... I was the day manager of the KFC right down the street from your Mobil station.. I got to hate eatin chicken,, thank god for Shortys BBQ.. ;)

And keg south, best beer & burgers ever.....
 
And keg south, best beer & burgers ever.....

Or Lums at Kendall and US-1... the best hotdogs and ICE cold beer in the frosty mug.:cheers:

I wanna be a kid again...:yes::wink2:...


PM me if ya want..... we can share war stories...
 
If you're not smart enough to win, why would you stay in the game?

Yeah, there we go again applying apples to oranges. What a cosmetics company does in Dallas is an enormous over simplification. " Why we'll just do exactly what they do and poof - problems solved ". Sure would be nice if it were that simple.
 
NO business faces the number of variables that a deregulated airline does.

+1
I spent 35 years there, the last 25 in management.

Everybody's an expert. Except, they're not. Mostly, they haven't got a clue. It is a unique business, with a unique work force, with the ultimate perishable product, the most highly regulated deregulated environment iimaginable, and life or death issues handled daily.
 
A few people mentioned that the customers are one of the problems because they are not willing to 'pay' for better service.

I think the problem is the MAGNITUDE of the higher charges.

'Sir your round trip ticket for you and your wife in cattle class is $450.00 per person, for ONLY $900 MORE per person you can sit in a more comfortable chair and get a 'free' sandwich wrap.'

Yeah... no. I'm willing to pay more for comfort and service, but it seems like that extra service ends up costing an insane amount of money.... That is why so many of us stick with Southwest. I'll often pay a little extra to fly cattle class on Southwest verses their competition because their employees generally have great attitudes and are willing to work with you to solve any issues. Most other airlines make feel me like I'm an inconvenience that they have to deal with and that I should spend an extra grand per flight to get the time of day.

I'll pay extra for comfort and service, but I will not take out a mortgage to pay for the upgrade.
 
One of the things I've always really liked about SWA is their (relatively) egalitarian way with their passengers. I commuted to work on them for a couple of years and was struck by the contrast between them and AA. For instance: AA was always quick to draw the dark curtain behind first class...it was okay if the masses could smell the first class meals, but it was too much for us to see them. Then AA would play the trailer to the B movie - for those who were willing to pony up the $5 after which they would ask the rest of us to please close our window shade - so the 4 guys who paid could see the movie better. AA is much more GOP convention than 'we're all in this together', like SWA.

I do find it kind of amusing that the very same people who won't pay a dime more for an airline ticket will stand in line for 25 mins at Starbucks and happilly fork over 6 bucks for a latte.

But rank and file AA employees have little to say about the 'business model' per se. They're just trying avoid losing their shirts to the robber barons at the top. Herb Kelleher is a folk hero...AA has robber barons.
 
In that case only two viable options for the board to consider:
1. Smarter management
2. Different business

Hanging on and hoping it gets better is not a viable strategy

+1
I spent 35 years there, the last 25 in management.

Everybody's an expert. Except, they're not. Mostly, they haven't got a clue. It is a unique business, with a unique work force, with the ultimate perishable product, the most highly regulated deregulated environment iimaginable, and life or death issues handled daily.
 
In that case only two viable options for the board to consider:
1. Smarter management
2. Different business

Hanging on and hoping it gets better is not a viable strategy

Stay right by your phone I'm sure an airline board of directors will be giving you a call any minute now so they can profit from your ingenious home-spun solutions.
 
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