Sick-out at American?

steingar

steingar

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American Airlines reports canceling over 300 flights since Sunday and is reducing the number of flights through October, ostensibly because of pilots calling in sick. Coincidentally, the American pilots have rejected their latest deal with American and are under the direction of bankruptcy court. Sick out? Story on CNN.
 
I like the part where the union immediately mentioned to the press, and the press immediately reported, that this was not coordinated or sanctioned in any way by the union and further that the percentage of sick calls was not disproportionate to any other time period.

Uh huh...
 
airguy said:
I like the part where the union immediately mentioned to the press, and the press immediately reported, that this was not coordinated or sanctioned in any way by the union and further that the percentage of sick calls was not disproportionate to any other time period.

Uh huh...
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Don't know about the number of sick calls. The airlines managements love to blame their screw ups on someone else on a regular basis. Based on conversations with friends at AA, this is definitely not union coordinated or sanctioned.
 
Just quoting from the article linked above - that's all. I'll fully support your assertion about AA management trying to place the blame anywhere but on themselves.


"Tom Hoban, an American pilot and chairman of the union's communications team, denied that there is any increase in the number of pilots calling in sick compared to historical norms for the airline. He said any pilots calling in sick or filing maintenance reports are doing so on their own.
"This isn't being organized, supported or sanctioned by the union, period," he said. "
 
If you don't have a contract you don't have to go to work...it's like one AA pilot told me "it's kinda like building a swimming pool and midway through the owner rips up your contract...what do you do?" The pilots that want some time off just take it...they can't do anything to them since they don't have a contract.
 
Red Air Rambo said:
If you don't have a contract you don't have to go to work...it's like one AA pilot told me "it's kinda like building a swimming pool and midway through the owner rips up your contract...what do you do?" The pilots that want some time off just take it...they can't do anything to them since they don't have a contract.
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Why can't they just fire them for not showing up?
 
Well I don't know about AA but around here there's been some nasty cold virus going around.. i've been lucky but a friend (who was sick) that works for a medium sized company told me that a really large number of employees were out sick last week
 
\__[Ô]__/;988161 said:
Why can't they just fire them for not showing up?
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Don't work for AA or in a union, but from my basic knowledge of such issues.
Most times, the "old" contract stays in effect till the new one is ratified by the union or they strike.
Since there has been no strike, I assume, they are still going off the old contract for hiring, firing, wages, call in's etc..
 
That's what i assumed, which would suggest that pilots can't just randomly not show up.

markb5900 said:
Don't work for AA or in a union, but from my basic knowledge of such issues.
Most times, the "old" contract stays in effect till the new one is ratified by the union or they strike.
Since there has been no strike, I assume, they are still going off the old contract for hiring, firing, wages, call in's etc..
Click to expand...
 
\__[Ô]__/;988171 said:
That's what i assumed, which would suggest that pilots can't just randomly not show up.
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True... But there has been a mysterious uptick in the number of flight delaying maintenance reports and issues logged. Gotta show up, but can be a stickler and raise the flag on things you would otherwise defer.

No joke... I've been on two AA flights in the last month where the captain came on and said we'd be delaying pushback while we wait for maintenance to arrive to replace some seat cushions. Really.
 
Red Air Rambo said:
If you don't have a contract you don't have to go to work...it's like one AA pilot told me "it's kinda like building a swimming pool and midway through the owner rips up your contract...what do you do?" The pilots that want some time off just take it...they can't do anything to them since they don't have a contract.
Click to expand...

The company can fire them. But that would be cutting their nose to spite their face. The union would almost definitely fight them and then they'd be short staffed for a lot longer than the length of a sick call.

\__[Ô]__/;988161 said:
Why can't they just fire them for not showing up?
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Because they're canceling flights for sick calls. Fire everyone that calls in sick and 1) you're going to be WAY short staffed, and 2) you're going to further **** off an already ****ed off pilot group. Not to mention they would then be embroiled in a legal battle with the union for reinstatement and pilot pushing in addition to their current bankruptcy issues.

markb5900 said:
Don't work for AA or in a union, but from my basic knowledge of such issues.
Most times, the "old" contract stays in effect till the new one is ratified by the union or they strike.
Since there has been no strike, I assume, they are still going off the old contract for hiring, firing, wages, call in's etc..
Click to expand...
That's true for when the contract "expires." Labor contracts actually don't expire, they simply become amenable. Once the contract term runs out and it is amenable, negotiations can begin for a new one. That process usually takes YEARS. And is no longer what AMR and the APA are going through.

Shortly after declaring bankruptcy, AMR gave APA a term sheet for a TA that was nothing short of insulting. APA voted it down. In litigation the bankruptcy judge decided to abrogate the entire contract. And now AMR has instituted a draconian set of work rules that the APA is almost powerless to change.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
True.......No joke... I've been on two AA flights in the last month where the captain came on and said we'd be delaying pushback while we wait for maintenance to arrive to replace some seat cushions. Really.
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And they wonder why they went bankrupt.:dunno:;):(
 
\__[Ô]__/;988171 said:
That's what i assumed, which would suggest that pilots can't just randomly not show up.
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Individual pilots can (and should) ALWAYS call out if they're legitimately sick. And the company shouldn't do a thing about it. The reason that the union was so quick to point out that this is not a sanctioned/organized action is that would be considered illegal work action (bordering on a wildcat strike) and very very against the law. If pilots are sicks, they're sick. If pilots all decide to call out on the same day without strike authorization, that's illegal.
 
There is no sick out. The number of sick pilots is actually down some 40% since the Judge allowed for the contract abrogation.

The pilots are flying VERY "aggressively safe" at the insistence of Management's Chief Pilot, a phrase he is perhaps not so happy to have come up with at this point.

There will be plenty of statements from both the company and the union, somewhere in the middle is the truth, but I would lean towards the union, because they are pilots. And pilots never lie. :rolleyes:
 
This just hit the wires (see, all is well!):

Fort Worth, Texas (Sept. 20, 2012)—The Allied Pilots Association (APA), certified collective bargaining agent for the 10,000 pilots of American Airlines, issued the following prepared statement in response to recent reports alleging a decline in the airline’s operational performance:
“First of all, there is no job action of any sort that is organized, supported or sanctioned by the Allied Pilots Association.
“APA independently tracks the airline’s operational performance. We have verified that pilot sick rates have not deviated from normal historical rates. We have likewise verified that crew cancellations remain at normal rates.
“One area of increased operational unreliability we have observed is in mechanical delays, which isn’t surprising. Although American Airlines operates the oldest fleet of any major U.S. carrier, management has decided to furlough a large number of mechanics and close one of its largest maintenance facilities. Management also decided some time ago to reduce its inventory of spare parts.
“In addition, management halted the recalls of furloughed pilots late last year, which has resulted in an insufficient number of pilots to maintain the schedule properly.
“It’s also important to remember that management chose to reject the APA-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement, which served as an operating manual for our pilots. Management’s action has generated significant uncertainty for our pilots with respect to employment protections and operating rules, which are now under management’s unilateral control.
“APA members are experienced professionals who conduct themselves as professionals under whatever circumstances they encounter. Any negative impact on our airline’s operational integrity is of management’s own making.”
 
airguy said:
I like the part where the union immediately mentioned to the press, and the press immediately reported, that this was not coordinated or sanctioned in any way by the union and further that the percentage of sick calls was not disproportionate to any other time period.

Uh huh...
Click to expand...

Yeah, flu season I guess!:rolleyes:
 
catmandu said:
This just hit the wires (see, all is well!):

Fort Worth, Texas (Sept. 20, 2012)—The Allied Pilots Association (APA), certified collective bargaining agent for the 10,000 pilots of American Airlines, issued the following prepared statement in response to recent reports alleging a decline in the airline’s operational performance:
“First of all, there is no job action of any sort that is organized, supported or sanctioned by the Allied Pilots Association.
“APA independently tracks the airline’s operational performance. We have verified that pilot sick rates have not deviated from normal historical rates. We have likewise verified that crew cancellations remain at normal rates.
“One area of increased operational unreliability we have observed is in mechanical delays, which isn’t surprising. Although American Airlines operates the oldest fleet of any major U.S. carrier, management has decided to furlough a large number of mechanics and close one of its largest maintenance facilities. Management also decided some time ago to reduce its inventory of spare parts.
“In addition, management halted the recalls of furloughed pilots late last year, which has resulted in an insufficient number of pilots to maintain the schedule properly.
“It’s also important to remember that management chose to reject the APA-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement, which served as an operating manual for our pilots. Management’s action has generated significant uncertainty for our pilots with respect to employment protections and operating rules, which are now under management’s unilateral control.
“APA members are experienced professionals who conduct themselves as professionals under whatever circumstances they encounter. Any negative impact on our airline’s operational integrity is of management’s own making.”
Click to expand...

That sucks, seriously, because I have 100k miles that I'm going to use for my vacation with the wife. So AA has the oldest fleet, and they've fired mechanics?

Great.
 
More power to them. I'd be ****ed off, too. The AMR bankruptcy is a farce done for no other reason than ripping up the employee contracts and continuing the outsourcing.
 
I fly AA 3-4 times a month and have no patience for this kind of garbage. Sounds like some people need to find a different employer if they're so unhappy where they are.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
This really sucks. I have an out-and-back trip from DFW to Raleigh for work Tuesday morning. Looks like I better plan an alternate (remote video) method to conduct the call... just in case.
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According to FlightAware there have not been too many delays in the first DFW-RDU flight of the day recently (if that is your flight). Likely an origination flight for DFW based pilots, and they don't start getting paid until the first set of brakes get released (mostly). So I would say your trip to the meeting has a better than average shot of getting you there. Unless of course American pre-emptively cancels it because of the ongoing issues.

But I wouldn't make any important dinner plans Tuesday night . . .
 
Rex Kramer said:
More power to them. I'd be ****ed off, too. The AMR bankruptcy is a farce done for no other reason than ripping up the employee contracts and continuing the outsourcing.
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Wasn't American the only major carrier that DIDN'T declare bankruptcy post-9/11 and renegotiate contracts? Well, no, I take that back, Southwest Airlines didn't either. Point being, most of the majors took that opportunity to trim some overhead but American did not, and now they are feeling the competitive pressure.
 
catmandu said:
According to FlightAware there have not been too many delays in the first DFW-RDU flight of the day recently (if that is your flight). Likely an origination flight for DFW based pilots, and they don't start getting paid until the first set of brakes get released (mostly). So I would say your trip to the meeting has a better than average shot of getting you there. Unless of course American pre-emptively cancels it because of the ongoing issues.

But I wouldn't make any important dinner plans Tuesday night . . .
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That's our flight out... and AA679 back home.
 
Many years ago I endured 2 strike count downs and one strike at Eastern air lines. In the first countdown I was in staff management as a tech writer (ex-mechanic). We were all pressed into service as mechanics to save the place. Later after returning to my tools, there was another countdown and strike, which ultimately closed the place.

Between the two, there were always other countdowns from the other unions. The company always claimed to be technically in default on loan conditions, and always borrowing, and building.

It sucked. No one knew if they should buy a house, have a kid, buy a car etc.

Periodically the union would stage quality work programs. It's all about plausible deniability if its an illegal job action.

Company officers didn't act with much integrity though. Ultimately people did things they would later regret on both sides of the struggle. I can see fighting for fairness.

As individuals had their emotions manipulated, sometimes they lost sight of those boundaries that should never be crossed. Some people were badly hurt. Really bad things were done by zealots on both sides.

When the elephants fight, the grass suffers though.

I do recall Eastern shop stewards saying, if everything in the manuals wasn't exactly right, stop and get the matter addressed. Years later at Delta the management was telling the workforce the exact same thing, without making allowances for the engineering manpower to fix all the problems.

I'm now convinced there is no such thing as a logical human being. We're all emotionally driven creatures. On a good day some of us can keep our inner jackass under control, but most, not.
 
It's really sad the pilots can't just change companies and be hired on their skill and time in, like other jobs.

Employers have no loyalty to their staff, but folk with seniority have no real choice but to be loyal to their carrier until the bitter end. In other jobs, when an employer is more abusive than others, they end up with the nincompoops and the smart folk walk across the street.
 
Union contracts cut both ways.

denverpilot said:
It's really sad the pilots can't just change companies and be hired on their skill and time in, like other jobs.

Employers have no loyalty to their staff, but folk with seniority have no real choice but to be loyal to their carrier until the bitter end. In other jobs, when an employer is more abusive than others, they end up with the nincompoops and the smart folk walk across the street.
Click to expand...
 
Airline pilots have very options when it comes to their contract. As you saw the AA contract was thrown out and if the pilots strike then it only takes one phone call from the President to force them back to flying, so the only other options are 1) unofficial sick-out. Since the FAA says that pilots can not fly sick then the company can not fire them over calling in sick. Also the union can not call for a sick-out as that is illegal it is usually done by word of mouth. 2) maintenance write ups. Airplanes fly always with minor issues, i.e. placards falling off etc that do not affect the safety of flight but if you were to follow the faa guidlines to a "T" then you must right that up for maintenance to fix. If everyone does that then there are long lines of delayed planes waiting on a mechanic to come out to the aircraft and fix the problem or defer it to a later date.
It is frustrating to see senior management not taking pay cuts but hard working individuals qualifying for food stamps (as in some regionals). As someone noted earlier, pilots can not switch airlines and keep their same seniority so they must fight until the end. Until their is a national seniority numbering system, which will probabaly never happen, this practice will continue.
So in the end I support the AA pilots to fight anyway they can for what they think is right. Maybe the CEO shouldn't take a salary until things straighten out, who knows. With all that said my American Flight better be on time on Oct 10th to California.
 
C. R. Smith really needs to return from the grave and plant his foot in the behinds of AMR management.
 
Matthew O said:
if the pilots strike then it only takes one phone call from the President to force them back to flying
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Nope - the pilots are flying for a private company, President has no authority there. He can exert some influence, yes - but not authority.

Reagan was able to do it with the PATCO strike because the controllers are federal employees. The pilots are not. Now maybe if GM strikes.... :D
 
I am currently on an American flight. What a surprise it was late. The crew had to come over from another gate in the same terminal at DFW but seemed to take a long time to make that trip. No doubt stopped for a snack, hit the bathroom, chatted up some old friends, etc. I think it is disgraceful for them to take up their frustrations by punishing us, the innocent travelers in an attempt to pressurize their management. Sorry for the rant.
 
airguy said:
Nope - the pilots are flying for a private company, President has no authority there. He can exert some influence, yes - but not authority.

Reagan was able to do it with the PATCO strike because the controllers are federal employees. The pilots are not. Now maybe if GM strikes.... :D
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Not true, through the RLA act, if the pilots are granted a release by the NMB, they can be sent back to work by the PEB.


They haven't been released. They aren't striking. They aren't even calling in sick more than usual. They are just doing their jobs and no one else's.

That's all they need to do to have the operation fall apart. Just do only their jobs.
 
Matthew O said:
...
It is frustrating to see senior management not taking pay cuts but hard working individuals qualifying for food stamps (as in some regionals). As someone noted earlier, pilots can not switch airlines and keep their same seniority so they must fight until the end. Until their is a national seniority numbering system, which will probabaly never happen, this practice will continue.
So in the end I support the AA pilots to fight anyway they can for what they think is right. Maybe the CEO shouldn't take a salary until things straighten out, who knows. With all that said my American Flight better be on time on Oct 10th to California.
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The non-union management and staff ranks at AA have been cut the bone - their cuts have been ongoing, deep and dramatic, even during the time that the reductions in union-represented personnel were less because of the CBAs provisions.

Not saying all is fair and equitable, and there's a lot of history there, but one would be misguided if they based their evaluation of this situation on an assumption that "management" at AA had not suffered. They have, on balance, suffered much longer and much worse.

Rex Kramer said:
Not true, through the RLA act, if the pilots are granted a release by the NMB, they can be sent back to work by the PEB.
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Yep, and it has happened before at AA.

Rex Kramer said:
They haven't been released. They aren't striking. They aren't even calling in sick more than usual. They are just doing their jobs and no one else's.

That's all they need to do to have the operation fall apart. Just do only their jobs.
Click to expand...

This whole thing has gotten out of hand. There is a lot of nose-cutting going on here.
 
SCCutler said:
but one would be misguided if they based their evaluation of this situation on an assumption that "management" at AA had not suffered. They have, on balance, suffered much longer and much worse.
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I would say that when folks bad mouth "management" at AMR they are typcially referring to the top of the food chain....ie the kind of folks who enjoy the perks of the townehouse in London.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I would say that when folks bad mouth "management" at AMR they are typcially referring to the top of the food chain....ie the kind of folks who enjoy the perks of the townehouse in London.
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No doubt true for some, but living around here, it is hard to overlook the belief of many (supported by the press) that the union-represented folks are getting shafted while the rest bask in some aura of inviolability. Simply untrue.

Main thing is, if it continues to be all about getting back at the guys you don't like (especially if, as here, many of the guys they don't like are not even around any more), the airline is a dead man walking.

And for those foolish enough to believe that US Airways and Doug Parker are the answer, ask any US Airways pilot; that should clear that up "rat now."
 
SCCutler said:
And for those foolish enough to believe that US Airways and Doug Parker are the answer, ask any US Airways pilot; that should clear that up "rat now."
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Totally agree.

US Air East vs West guys can't even agree over who bought who.
 
airguy said:
Nope - the pilots are flying for a private company, President has no authority there. He can exert some influence, yes - but not authority.

Reagan was able to do it with the PATCO strike because the controllers are federal employees. The pilots are not. Now maybe if GM strikes.... :D
Click to expand...
I don't know the differences - but a good friend of mine works for Canadian Pacific as a railroad engineer in Minnesota and their union was going to strike about a year ago. The POUS stopped the strike and they lost that option.
 
Whether you agree or not, here's a perspective from Bob Crandall: Link
 
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