Should we Still Teach Old Tech???

I feel honored to have learned about the E6B. That thing is awesome! I also learned how not to use it one time since my checkride, but still, I agree with teaching it because you need to understand the underlying calculations going on with all the electronic flight planning tools all the young whipper snappers are using today.
 
Why is simple arithmetic still taught in grade school when any $5 calculator will do the same?
Why are english grammar and spelling still taught when MS Word will correct mistakes?

Because without the fundamentals, you don't understand how to use the tech. Remember, the E6B was once considered high tech.
 
The E6B is a waste of time. In many ways it is like using a sextant for navigation.
For civilians there are plenty rules of thumb for anything the article suggests you would need in case the whole glass panel goes kaput. The rules of thumb are good enough to get down, and if I lose the whole panel, I am declaring an emergency and getting on the ground asap.
Now for the military which will often operate in conditions which civilians would not consider, the E6B may provide a lot of value.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
 
Of course. Why focus on the E6B. Steam gauges are 'old tech' these days. VOR's are 'old tech'. But more planes out there have these than a G1000
 
murphey said:
Why is simple arithmetic still taught in grade school when any $5 calculator will do the same?
Why are english grammar and spelling still taught when MS Word will correct mistakes?

Because without the fundamentals, you don't understand how to use the tech. Remember, the E6B was once considered high tech.
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Why learn to cook when you can pop something in the microwave?

It's about learning "how" instead of just coming up with an answer, and the E6b is a great teaching tool to show "how" the time/distance/ground speed/wind correction angles all work together. Don't look at those lessons as how to use an E6b, but look at them as how to understand the way all the parts of the equation work together. You lose that when you let some flight planner spit out an answer.
 
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I don't see how the e6B is the basics of flight calculations, its just a rotary slide rule tailored for aviation that approximates the answers.
 
Pilawt said:
I still use the E-6B I learned to use as a student pilot 50 years ago. Haven't had to replace batteries yet, doesn't overheat, and it even works in bright sunlight.

Best of all, you look so cool using it!

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I bet you never ever even had it serviced. Did you know that studies have shown that unmaintained E6B's are 20% less efficient than properly maintained units? Hmmmm?
 
Matthew said:
Why learn to cook when you can pop something in the microwave?

It's about learning "how" instead of just coming up with an answer, and the E6b is a great teaching tool to show "how" the time/distance/ground speed/wind correction angles all work together. Don't look at those lessons as how to use an E6b, but look at them as how to understand the way all the parts of the equation work together. You lose that when you let some flight planner spit out an answer.
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I do not see how the E6B can teach the relationships between time/speed/distance or anything else.
It is still just a black box that uses analog inputs and outputs.

Tim
 
I would say a brief block on the old technologies would be beneficial.

Doing just a handful of wind triangles can help cement the concept of what your GPS or autopilot is doing as it calculates a wind correction angle. Understanding the relationship of time/speed/distance on an E6B can help in a similar way to make sense of the numbers being generated by your EFB for groundspeed and ETA's, let's say. And, importantly, when they might not be making sense due to a mis-entered waypoint or whatever.

But the key is brief - just enough to aid the student in visualizing what's going on behind the scenes. Not with the goal of being proficient.
 
tspear said:
I do not see how the E6B can teach the relationships between time/speed/distance or anything else.
It is still just a black box that uses analog inputs and outputs.

Tim
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Disagree. Reading GS at the speed index after placing distance over time makes the relationship obvious in a way a calculator cannot.

E6b-slide-rule.id.jpg
 
Last year, while the government was running tests to muck about with the GPS, we lost the magenta line for 45 minutes in the middle of New York State.
Go back and listen to some of the LiveATC radio calls that were made by people who had no idea where they were or how to get to where they were going.
The Belt and Suspenders Brigade, (translation: geezers) flew along with our paper maps and E6Bs.
Even when I use a GPS device, I always have a paper map out to mark my last position, and an E6B to let me know how I'm doing if I need it.
 
Not just E6B but other basics such as performance planning and W&B. While I rarely do manual stuff now, knowing it from the get go gives a better understanding of the environment and its effect on aircraft performance.

I know a guy who is a commercial pilot and couldn't even do a basic W&B during a quarterly training event we had a while back. He said he had forgotten but I have no doubt he never had a grasp on the basics to begin with. Fortunately, he doesn't work with us anymore.
 
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I don't care what my students use as long as they can still fly and make calculations in case their technology craps out. Their technology "fails" at least once a flight. There are guys that can't do a W&B without an app. There are guys that can't do a simple cross country without a GPS. That's a problem. Not saying you have to use the old tech all time but you better know how to go back to the basics when your technology fails.
 
tspear said:
The E6B is a waste of time. In many ways it is like using a sextant for navigation.
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I'm glad you mentioned the sextant and by extension, celestial navigation.

I have heard that celestial navigation is no longer taught at Annapolis. I guess the US Navy had delegated this task to the Senior enlisted ranks.

Good or Bad? Discuss....
 
murphey said:
Why are English grammar and spelling still taught when MS Word will correct mistakes?
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Because we're on PoA without the benefit of grammar checking, I guess. :)

[j/k I agree with your point completely]
 
Skip Miller said:
I'm glad you mentioned the sextant and by extension, celestial navigation.

I have heard that celestial navigation is no longer taught at Annapolis. I guess the US Navy had delegated this task to the Senior enlisted ranks.

Good or Bad? Discuss....
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It'll be back on the curriculum after Kimmee What's-his-name unleashes his electromagnetic pulse weapon.:rolleyes:
 
tspear said:
In many ways it is like using a sextant for navigation.
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You do know the Navy started last year requiring all Naval Academy students to learn celestial navigation now and will be requiring the same of all NROTC students?
 
Sorry about the size of the above image - it scaled properly when first viewed.

And I can't seem to get to the "edit" box to delete it. Could a mod please do so?
 
[7500] speaking of old technology...if I get into a car without a rear view backup camera I might as well circle, confess and declare an automotive emergency because I'm like what the.... what..... I have to 'look out the window'?!?! 'Sideview mirrors'?? what the.....

But the good news is when I trained I learned how to use them, in case I ever had to use those 'side view mirror' things. [/7500]
 
Skip Miller said:
I'm glad you mentioned the sextant and by extension, celestial navigation.

I have heard that celestial navigation is no longer taught at Annapolis. I guess the US Navy had delegated this task to the Senior enlisted ranks.

Good or Bad? Discuss....
Click to expand...

My point exactly. The Military has a use to know this stuff, they are expected to continue mission when there is a bump in the night.
Civilian aviation, not so much, we get to declare emergency and land ASAP.

Tim
 
For all those advocating the E6B.
How does this help get more pilots? This is just one more item, which adds cost to getting a license or maintaining proficiency.
And the E6B is not used in everyday flying. If I lose my panel in flight, I am not going to dig out the E6B, and I am not going to keep it handy. I am going to deviate to the nearest airport, convert NM to SM by multiplying by 1.15 via simple math (drop the ones digit, divide by two and add both results to the base number). Same goes for everything else, use rules of thumb and get down.

Tim
 
Craig said:
You do know the Navy started last year requiring all Naval Academy students to learn celestial navigation now and will be requiring the same of all NROTC students?
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I hadn't heard that. Personally, I think that is the right move. -Skip
 
FastEddieB said:
See my comment above. I'm not advocating proficiency, just awareness of the history and mechanics behind it.
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Yeah, I have helped a few pilots with the E6B. In not one case does it help understand the relationships you postulated. And not one person I know has been impressed or interested in the history outside of a few military history buffs.
As for the mechanics, you have to have an understanding of calculus to understand the mechanics behind a slide rule. Using it provides no understanding of the mechanics behind it; it just provides knowledge on how to solve a specific problem set.

Tim
 
N659HB said:
Old school rules because electronics will fail. But I thought the FAA was phasing out paper charts?
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Paper fails, we should all use stone tablets instead.

Tim
 
I felt lucky if the ADF and the compass were both working in most of the rentals I used to fly. I'm moving up in the world, as my twin that I am restoring has an SCR-269 radio compass:cool:

There have been a number of times within the last year or so that there have been major area disruptions of the GPS system. I guess if you can't use anything else but that, when they are down, you don't fly then huh? I grew up learning to navigate by compass and topo maps long before I could drive or fly. GPS is a nicety, but I don't need it.
 
Craig said:
I felt lucky if the ADF and the compass were both working in most of the rentals I used to fly. I'm moving up in the world, as my twin that I am restoring has an SCR-269 radio compass:cool:

There have been a number of times within the last year or so that there have been major area disruptions of the GPS system. I guess if you can't use anything else but that, when they are down, you don't fly then huh? I grew up learning to navigate by compass and topo maps long before I could drive or fly. GPS is a nicety, but I don't need it.
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If I lose GPS, I do not get out the E6B. I tune in a VOR and either land or switch to following victor routes.

Tim
 
tspear said:
For all those advocating the E6B.
How does this help get more pilots? This is just one more item, which adds cost to getting a license or maintaining proficiency.
Click to expand...

Don't think cost is a concern. An E6B is, what, $10?
 
The more we learn the better we are. Im glad I know how to work a metal E6B. But my IFR GPS has one built into the panel and its way easier. My metal one is a "collectors item". Knowing how to do a paper and pencil weight and balance is still a good thing to be able to do. ETC.
 
N659HB said:
Do you ever fly by pilotage and ded reckoning?
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Not in years. I switched to navaid based flying when I got my IR ticket. I am normally flying between 8-12K at night; which makes such methods rather impractical.

Tim
 
I don't remember the E6B helping me understand the relationships between the numbers used in calculations. To me, it was a primitive form of calculator. Seeing the equations on paper made things more understandable for me. The same goes for wind triangles. They are more understandable when viewed and drawn on paper. YMMV.
 
An E6B (or my preference, the Jeppesen CR-5) is just a specialized calculator. Some things take a little take more work using the whiz wheel, some things take more work using the electronics.

In my oversimplified world, if you divide pilots into "artists" or "engineers", there are far more artists in cockpits than engineers...engineers seem to be able to visualize the math well enough to see advantages to whiz wheels, and artists are happy to just have something spit out a number so they can go fly.

Artists won't be converted to engineers, and engineers won't be converted to artists, so why try?
 
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