Should we Still Teach Old Tech???

Matthew said:
Do any grades in schools still teach long division anymore, or do they just teach how to use a calculator?
Click to expand...

Did you take the required mechanical engineering to develop an engine before you learned to drive?
Did you take chemistry before learning to cook so you can understand the chemical reactions and interactions with the application or removal of energy?

Tim
 
tspear said:
Did you take the required mechanical engineering to develop an engine before you learned to drive?
Did you take chemistry before learning to cook so you can understand the chemical reactions and interactions with the application or removal of energy?

Tim
Click to expand...
Nope - but understanding the fundamentals of how a manual transmission works sure helped me learn how to drive one.

I had a simple question about how math is being taught in schools these days.

Maybe this whole E6B argument is a generational thing. When I was in grade school we weren't allowed to use those new electronic calculators that were just coming out. When my own kids were in school their math classes had whole sections on how to use a calculator. The first senior electrical engineers I worked with had come through the post WW II college boom after having worked as radio or radar guys during the war. Those guys could whip out all sorts of calculations by hand and never saw the need for much more than maybe an adding machine when they did their taxes. We work with what we know how to use.
 
Matthew said:
Nope - but understanding the fundamentals of how a manual transmission works sure helped me learn how to drive one.

I had a simple question about how math is being taught in schools these days.

Maybe this whole E6B argument is a generational thing. When I was in grade school we weren't allowed to use those new electronic calculators that were just coming out. When my own kids were in school their math classes had whole sections on how to use a calculator. The first senior electrical engineers I worked with had come through the post WW II college boom after having worked as radio or radar guys during the war. Those guys could whip out all sorts of calculations by hand and never saw the need for much more than maybe an adding machine when they did their taxes. We work with what we know how to use.
Click to expand...

But does the understanding help you drive an automatic? That is the closer comparison.
As for math these days, oh boy. Do NOT get me started... :D

The E6B and a lot of the other "old technology", steam gauge versus PFD is a combination of generational and environmental.
I am in my 40s, and I can see how a lot of my parents generation processes information, how my generation does so, and then look at my kids.
The human mind is rather amazing, and each generation has differing filters, needs and processes.
In some ways, I see the debate about the E6B as a reflection on the change in aviation. I think for a growing group, and the future of aviation we treat it as a tool. Not as a romantic fight against gravity. Therefore, we want the easiest tool to use: an app on the phone, a calculator... When I discuss with my kids, if they want to understand how the tool works, they will research it. But at the end of the day, flying is about using all the tools provided.

Tim
 
tspear said:
But does the understanding help you drive an automatic? That is the closer comparison.
As for math these days, oh boy. Do NOT get me started... :D

The E6B and a lot of the other "old technology", steam gauge versus PFD is a combination of generational and environmental.
I am in my 40s, and I can see how a lot of my parents generation processes information, how my generation does so, and then look at my kids.
The human mind is rather amazing, and each generation has differing filters, needs and processes.
In some ways, I see the debate about the E6B as a reflection on the change in aviation. I think for a growing group, and the future of aviation we treat it as a tool. Not as a romantic fight against gravity. Therefore, we want the easiest tool to use: an app on the phone, a calculator... When I discuss with my kids, if they want to understand how the tool works, they will research it. But at the end of the day, flying is about using all the tools provided.

Tim
Click to expand...
Some of the training methods and tools we have as pilots are still the result of the generations before us passing along their hard learned lessons. Give it time and the E6b will be one of those things that fades away, too. And dinosaurs like you will be able to show your grandkids what it was used for.
 
tspear said:
Did you take chemistry before learning to cook so you can understand the chemical reactions and interactions with the application or removal of energy?
Click to expand...
Interesting you mention that. Obviously we didn't take chemistry but my wife and I took a cooking class a few months ago as a fun date activity and I was surprised by how much "chemistry" type stuff the chef talked about. He didn't get all science teacher on us, but there is a relationship with food and temperature that I, until then, really wasn't all the cognizant of how different flavors and foods and meats breakdown and blend together at various temps. At the winery tour we did as well they also went into some science about the breakdown of sugar in the various stages. But the analogy is a little extreme, when I was a student I learned very limited info about aerodynamics and the powerplant... most of what I know now about it I learned myself

Matthew said:
Nope - but understanding the fundamentals of how a manual transmission works sure helped me learn how to drive one.
Click to expand...
Yeah, same here. My brother taught me how to drive manual and understanding how the clutch and gears interacted with each other helped give an intuitive sense for engaging the clutch and various gears

Matthew said:
Maybe this whole E6B argument is a generational thing. When I was in grade school we weren't allowed to use those new electronic calculators that were just coming out.
Click to expand...
I'm only 31 and my teachers would tell us to use the calculators "God gave us" - it wasn't until more advanced math courses that we used graphing calculators

tspear said:
I think for a growing group, and the future of aviation we treat it as a tool. Not as a romantic fight against gravity.
Click to expand...
THAT'S IT! It's a whole different culture now. I would like to say "for worse" but who am I to judge

MauleSkinner said:
It helps me understand why I don't like automatics.
Click to expand...
They suck. We rented a Ford Fiesta in Denver... it was a small and light car and although it was woefully underpowered it would have been fun as a stick. Instead this car would do its best to stay at 2,000 rpms (for mpgs!!!) and then upshift to 6K and suffer there before jumping way back down. I don't care if an automatic in a high end sports car is some milliseconds faster than a manual, I still want a true clutch and stick in my car. Oh well
 
NHWannabe said:
Have you seen how they teach math in Common Core?
Click to expand...
Not directly, but isn't it something completely asinine like "if 2 is green and 3 is red then that means there are three letter E's between red and green. The letter is is the fifth letter of the alphabet, so 2 plus 3 equals 5"
 
mscard88 said:
View attachment 56158
Click to expand...

You realize PoA has a private stable, stocked with horses specially bred for this purpose. Every now and then, we trot one out and have at. Newbies beat the horse. Seasoned members of the club attempt (with varying degrees of success) to get the n00bs to wear themselves out and cover themselves in horseguts.

It's considered somewhat gauche to draw attention to the spectacle as spectacle. Pick a n00b... it's fun. :)
 
G-force said:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/373840/ten-dumbest-common-core-problems-alec-torres
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was the state initiative. Common Core only stipulates addition and subtraction by grade 1 with ones and tens digits (going on memory).
The states pretty much split into two groups to fund development of tests that meet the Common Core standards.
And this is one of the results (to be fair, the other is not much better). A few of the math teachers I know stated the tests were designed by liberal arts majors who failed math. :)

Anyway, still not Common Core; but the implementation selected by many states.

Tim
 
Pilawt said:
<sigh>

Just like we have this thing now called a "tailwheel endorsement," pretty soon licensed pilots will have to fly with a CFI (an old CFI) to get a "steam endorsement" in order to fly a non-TAA.
Click to expand...

Heh. Us old guys would then smile at all the "prospective students" the FAA just handed us. LOL.
 
cowman said:
Depends on the old tech. VOR? Yes. How to read a sectional and figure out where you are without GPS? Heck yes. E6B? Nope, in fact I think they should get rid of it.

Most new pilots, myself included, are going to learn the E6B well enough to do their pre-flight planning and pass their written, then it will sit in the bottom of the flight bag. Even if, one day, all the gadgets fail at once they're at best not going to be proficient with it and at worst not remember how to use it at all. Assuming it's even within the pilot's reach in the first place.

I don't see how the E6B helps you understand any concept better, it's just an old fashioned calculator. You don't need that to get that there's headwind/tailwind and it changes your ground speed or that you have a set amount of fuel that gets used at a certain rate.

What new pilots really need to know is what they're going to do to get safely home or at least to safety if the devices fail. I feel I know how to do that and the E6B isn't part of my strategy.
Click to expand...

This is my thought exactly. Truthfully the oldest and probably best form of "Old Tech" has been around for millions of years and that's the earth. Pilots should always learn to navigate first and foremost and you don't need an E6B to find where you are going.

Second thing is, pilots should learn how to navigate via visual landmarks not just the magenta line. If you can't find where you are, have an approximate heading for how to arrive safely at a target, then hoensty it makes no difference if you can calculate the time it may take you, the exact heading, and the approximate fuel consumption... You are just wasting your time calculating those things. It's analogues to the doctor hooking up the blood pressure monitor and looking at the monitor meanwhile the patient is chocking to death.... You've sort of missed the most obvious, and urgent piece of information!

I will willingly admit-- I have not used my E6B since my training days and would not be proficient with it today. That's being said, I can confidently locate myself on a map, find a nearby airport and make the appropriate course adjustment without any issue.
 
Last edited:
Shepherd said:
Last year, while the government was running tests to muck about with the GPS, we lost the magenta line for 45 minutes in the middle of New York State.
Go back and listen to some of the LiveATC radio calls that were made by people who had no idea where they were or how to get to where they were going.
The Belt and Suspenders Brigade, (translation: geezers) flew along with our paper maps and E6Bs.
Even when I use a GPS device, I always have a paper map out to mark my last position, and an E6B to let me know how I'm doing if I need it.
Click to expand...

I'm a student pilot (taking my exam next Thursday) and I'm VERY glad to learn how to use the E6B. In fact, I think it is faster for me than getting to the calculator app (or any other app) on my phone, and no batteries. It has so many functions, and I'm getting better and better with it.
It impresses me a lot more than software (I'm a programmer too). On the wind side, I can now "see" the vrctors after someone pointed that out.

I'm already an old geezer, but not an experienced pilot, but soon hopefully will be an old geezer (new) pilot that would be one of those that fly along with my maps and E6B. At very least as backup.

As a kid, I can remember my dad giving me a number of those (if it was called it back then) E6B's to play with, as he had forgotten them on the dash of his 172, and they had melted/warped in the sunlight and no longer usable. I had at least three of them. Not able to turn, or use but fascinated with all the complexity it seemed like was there. Now I can use them (and I rent, so I won't be making dads mistake leaving them to melt!)

I'm kind of amazed at the number of "no fan of the E6B" there are. Personally I was always amazed (I'm easily amazed maybe) that they crammed SO much calculating power on to those wheels.
Maybe too, I'm not great at geometry, and none of it came naturally as it does to some. I work at it. The folks that are math inclined that see no value and believe it is better just to calculate...for them I'm sure it is correct, but for me I get a LOT more out of using the E6B, seeing relationships between variable elements...just calculating fuel burn or other things where I can look across the scale and see the relationship pretty clearly. It also helps me (because of the nature of it) to always do "rough estimates" of the answers because I have tripped up a few times by having to use the one value for thousands, hundreds, tens, tenths, etc. so it makes me cross check ahead of time which alone has helped me get better at estimating.

I wouldn't say how it should be for others, but I'm very glad it is still being used. For me it has helped a lot.
 
Last edited:
I'm such a pathetic dweeb.
On long highway trips, I have my E6B out and calculate time, distance and average speed while my wife is driving.
She says I'm worse than a baby with a pacifier.
 
Shepherd said:
I'm such a pathetic dweeb.
On long highway trips, I have my E6B out and calculate time, distance and average speed while my wife is driving.
She says I'm worse than a baby with a pacifier.
Click to expand...

Haha I did that once when the speedometer died in my El Camino to figure out the speed so I wouldn't get a ticket. Forget how I did it though.... o_O
 
Yeah, set the stopwatch when the mile markers go by, then do the math. In Colorado, on I-70, Mile Marker 420 kept getting stolen by stoners, so it was replaced with 419.99. That might throw your ground speed calculations off.
 
Matthew said:
Yeah, set the stopwatch when the mile markers go by, then do the math. In Colorado, on I-70, Mile Marker 420 kept getting stolen by stoners, so it was replaced with 419.99. That might throw your ground speed calculations off.
Click to expand...

That might have been it! :rofl:
 
This thread has convinced me to order an abacus for our company accountant and demand he knows how to use it in case his PC fails. :)
 
denverpilot said:
This thread has convinced me to order an abacus for our company accountant and demand he knows how to use it in case his PC fails. :)
Click to expand...
How many fingers does he have? C'mon, people!

When he starts stomping his foot while figuring the accounts receivable, you might want to think about that abacus.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top