Should we Still Teach Old Tech???

Nope. HSI back courses and the E6B did not help one iota. For everyone of those things, I went back to calculus and trig to get the real math behind it.
And as for that math, nope. It will never be used, it will never help. I have never seen one single scenario ever presented where a lot of that crap helps. If I have a glass panel, I am never going to fly a reversing sensing back course. If I lose the panel, I am not going to try and predict my arrival time down to the minute using an E6B. I am going to look for the nearest VMC airport and land using simple rules of thumb.

If you are flying a plane which has such a HSI, I can understand the DPE grilling you on it. But for the rest, not so much.


Tim
So what do you do if you lose the panel Imc and there is no vmc within range of your gas tanks? That math comes in real handy. That's what happened to me. Sure glad I learned all that old school stuff.
 
I did a lot of military flying with E6B, speed dividers, sextant and manual math computing the celestial data. After a while I did get a Texas Instruments calculator that we programmed for celestial data.

But if you don't understand the math behind the program, how do you know when your computer generated magenta line is wrong.

Most question most DPEs hear, "what is that box doing now?"

Same way you know that the E6B was printed correctly.

Tim
 
So what do you do if you lose the panel Imc and there is no vmc within range of your gas tanks? That math comes in real handy. That's what happened to me. Sure glad I learned all that old school stuff.

Sure, do the rules of thumb. How does the E6B help? I lose the panel, use a portable calculator, do mental math. Here are few emergency situations where the E6B and many other archaic things did not help:
  • Lost the complete Aspen 2500 system (primary, reversion backup, and MFD) over a solid layer. With ATC help used known power settings and backup attitude indicator to get through the layer and land. How would the E6B have helped?
  • I have lost both alternators while IMC. Notified ATC, shutdown the transponder, second GNS units, lights, pitot heat... The Aspen PFD was on its internal backup battery, and the primary GNS was running on the main battery. ATC gave me a PAR approach to the runway
Not sure about you, but I am not going to take my hand off the yoke to try and use the E6B with both hands without an A/P. But then, maybe I am not proficient enough.

Tim
 
Sure, do the rules of thumb. How does the E6B help? I lose the panel, use a portable calculator, do mental math. Here are few emergency situations where the E6B and many other archaic things did not help:
  • Lost the complete Aspen 2500 system (primary, reversion backup, and MFD) over a solid layer. With ATC help used known power settings and backup attitude indicator to get through the layer and land. How would the E6B have helped?
  • I have lost both alternators while IMC. Notified ATC, shutdown the transponder, second GNS units, lights, pitot heat... The Aspen PFD was on its internal backup battery, and the primary GNS was running on the main battery. ATC gave me a PAR approach to the runway
Not sure about you, but I am not going to take my hand off the yoke to try and use the E6B with both hands without an A/P. But then, maybe I am not proficient enough.

Tim
I see what you're saying. My situation was a total electrical failure. There was no atc to help out. I didn't actually use the e6b. You're being literal. I used the knowledge of the basic concepts to make a plan and resolve my problem.

Believe it or not everyone that learns to fly doesn't have the math background to understand the relationships and concepts behind the majenta line and a fuel totalizer. I'm glad you do and find it all to be a waste of time. That means you understand stuff. That's cool. Not everybody gets it though and the learning process in all that old crap teaches it to them.
 
I see what you're saying. My situation was a total electrical failure. There was no atc to help out. I didn't actually use the e6b. You're being literal. I used the knowledge of the basic concepts to make a plan and resolve my problem.

Believe it or not everyone that learns to fly doesn't have the math background to understand the relationships and concepts behind the majenta line and a fuel totalizer. I'm glad you do and find it all to be a waste of time. That means you understand stuff. That's cool. Not everybody gets it though and the learning process in all that old crap teaches it to them.

This thread is about the E6B. If you want to discuss the math, sure we can.
The E6B, like the rules of thumb are tools. Pilots should be taught useful tools; the problem is that we are still teaching to many tools that have no value; and will not be used.
I know in an emergency situation, I am going to use rules of thumb. I am not gonna multiple knots times 1.1507794480235 to get the precise standard miles.

Tim
 
It shouldn't be about the tech, because the tech is different from aircraft to aircraft, and even from pilot to pilot. It's about the principles, the science, the physics. We should be taught the math involved, the formulas, etc...

My whiz wheel was tossed in the trash after I got my IR. I use tech, and I am prepared if one of them fail. Y'all do what you like.
 
This thread is about the E6B. If you want to discuss the math, sure we can.
The E6B, like the rules of thumb are tools. Pilots should be taught useful tools; the problem is that we are still teaching to many tools that have no value; and will not be used.
I know in an emergency situation, I am going to use rules of thumb. I am not gonna multiple knots times 1.1507794480235 to get the precise standard miles.

Tim
Yeah.... glad you know the relationship of knots to mph. That's the point.
 
Yes, if for no other reason to let the younger pilots know how easy they have it. I use to walk to flight school carrying 50lbs of books and charts...uphill, both ways, fighting off grizzly bears with my trusted E6B.
Kids today....

Yeah, but was bare foot in the snow with a -50 degree windchill? :biggrin:
 
I told that joke (the original version) in highschool to a friend. I think we were both 14 at the time. He proclaimed: "That's disgusting!", stormed off and didn't speak to me for a month.

I'm still dumbstruck by his reaction to this very day.

Did he end up as a priest?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Love the E6B, although I never use it. But, it's faster (at least as fast as) than than any computer when used correctly.

But, I learned to fly in the '80's. I know ADF/NDB stuff to a science. Most new IFR guys here are not learning that skill.

That said, I was never trained flying The A/N routes. So, times change, and the training should change with the times.

Though I do admit, the changing times are dumbing down the science and art of aviation.
 
Last year, while the government was running tests to muck about with the GPS, we lost the magenta line for 45 minutes in the middle of New York State.
Go back and listen to some of the LiveATC radio calls that were made by people who had no idea where they were or how to get to where they were going.
The Belt and Suspenders Brigade, (translation: geezers) flew along with our paper maps and E6Bs.
Even when I use a GPS device, I always have a paper map out to mark my last position, and an E6B to let me know how I'm doing if I need it.

I'd fly along with one of two electronic maps on board (soon to be three) that even though they aren't tracking and aren't "moving maps" anymore, I can certainly move myself and find landmarks and waypoints on them.

There's a "semi-current" few paper charts stuffed in the side pocket of the passenger side if multiple electronic maps truly failed, but paper in my lap with the finger on it nowadays? No. Just move the map yourself and pick an edge or the center of the thing for "present position last time I moved it myself" just like paper. Paper is a huge PITA. I had to fly myself 100 miles away to get a freaking paper chart for my initial CFI ride that nobody anywhere in the metro area had in stock. All it did was sit on the exam table and collect dust. We reviewed and I taught chart "stuff" on the iPad for the most part. I grabbed the paper to get to the legend faster just out of convenience for one thing I was "teaching" during that ride.

Sorry about the size of the above image - it scaled properly when first viewed.

And I can't seem to get to the "edit" box to delete it. Could a mod please do so?

If all the electronic whizzes here can't figure out how to zoom and unzoom a modern browser with keyboard shortcuts or the keyboard plus mouse wheel methods in all of them, they're not ready to drive an IFR GPS yet. LOL. This is brain dead simple and has been around in browsers for over a decade now, so there's no excuse not to know how to "fly" your software by now. Alternatively, use a much better interface via Tapatalk and everything is scaled to fit the screen automatically, which is how the main forum software should be handling pictures anyway.

And how does the E6B help you navigate around the mountain? Besides, out west, if single engine I will basically follow airways. Going direct does not generally seem worth the risk/reward.

Airway routing through the Rockies is not the most efficient or the most safe method of crossing them, ever. Seriously. No airway takes a reasonable route through the mountains. Many of them point you AT all the high terrain, because guess where the VOR stations need to sit to be usable without being blocked by large mountains. Other than in a turbo and preferably pressurized aircraft, I can't think of any good reason to fly an airway over the Rockies unless you're already in the low teens and just flying over them that way.

It's not about learning a harder old school way vs a quicker new school way. It's not even about a military benefit vs civilian.

It's about visualizing what the data presents. A simple App doesn't look left and right of the correct answer. An E6B does that. You can vary the numbers and see what a + or - in temp or PA does to DA. You can look at the wind correction angle and instantly see how a different heading is effected by the winds. You can look at the crosswind component diagram and at a glance know what your X wind component is. Check your fuel burn and then get your range with a few twists of the wheel. Get your descent rate for a given GS and glide slope in seconds without flipping to the back of a paper approach plate. I must say, learning to use an E6B was probably one of the quickest and easiest things to do in flight school.

The heart of the issue is this new wave of pilots who don't want to take the time to learn what the numbers mean and how they affect performance planning. They just want a quick "go / no go" result without understanding the heart of that answer. They really don't want to do any real preflight planning at all. They want to hop in the airplane like a car and go, then their EFB will make up for the lack of planning. A swag will be fine in their world. God forbid they actually have to take the time and use their brain to learn something about aviation.

A pilot with that innate curiosity to see how the numbers work can scribble a table of information on a piece of paper while punching in different numbers on an electronic device, just as easily as turning/seeing the numbers in the little window moving. There's nothing special about the E6B in this regard unless your learning style visual and even then, not needed.

Second most: "Look, it just did it again!"

Third most: "How do we get it to stop doing that?"

Oh, sorry, wrong list ... those are the top three things said by Airbus flight crews. :oops:

LOL. Friend shared this joke with me last night...

New [insert any highly automated glass cockpit aircraft here] pilot:

"What's it doing now?"

Experienced pilot in same aircraft:

"I don't know but I've seen it do that before!"

:)
 
I think first step is to define "old tech". Do you need to learn how to hand prop an airplane? How about how to take off using skids on grass? How and when to properly warp the wings? Navigate using mail routes?
 
Being a student I have to learn and show the DPE I can use it, after that I am darn sure I will never use it again. Same with nav log, I have to show him I can do it, then never to it again. Kinda useless unless u don't keep your skills sharpened. With the number of backups I fly with it will take an EMP to bring everything offline, and if I get hit by one, I am sure as hell not going to take out my E6B and try to figure it out.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Most question most DPEs hear, "what is that box doing now?"

I've said that a lot during instrument training. But I understand the math. What I don't understand are the weird rules around when it will and won't do something on its own. Like sequence to the next leg, or why is it choosing to do the hold??? I selected the way point after and hit direct, or...
 
I think this interesting. Why don't most of us use an E6B? I don't. I don't even remember how.

Let's assume it makes several type of calculations easy. (And it does, more or less.) Then, either:

* I'm not doing calculations I should be doing
* I'm doing them another way
* The calculations aren't required for the type of flying I do.

Seems like a majority of the arguments for the use of a mechanical calculator center around (2), and the perceived reliability of the alternatives (electronics).

For me, personally, flying daylight VFR, my tanks vastly exceed my bladder's range, I go point to point, I'm landing at airports where even August density altitude is still not a serious factor, I refuel before heading back. What calculations should I be doing?

Make the flying more challenging, does that change the types of calculations required? Are those calculations done frequently enough during the flight that the interface makes a difference (E6B vs tablet)? Is the importance of the calculations such that multiple backups (electronics) are still not enough reliability?

I only have 500 hours... and in a very limited form of flying (almost all daylight VFR). From here, I don't see the need. School me.
 
I think this interesting. Why don't most of us use an E6B? I don't. I don't even remember how.

Let's assume it makes several type of calculations easy. (And it does, more or less.) Then, either:

* I'm not doing calculations I should be doing
* I'm doing them another way
* The calculations aren't required for the type of flying I do.

Seems like a majority of the arguments for the use of a mechanical calculator center around (2), and the perceived reliability of the alternatives (electronics).

For me, personally, flying daylight VFR, my tanks vastly exceed my bladder's range, I go point to point, I'm landing at airports where even August density altitude is still not a serious factor, I refuel before heading back. What calculations should I be doing?

Make the flying more challenging, does that change the types of calculations required? Are those calculations done frequently enough during the flight that the interface makes a difference (E6B vs tablet)? Is the importance of the calculations such that multiple backups (electronics) are still not enough reliability?

I only have 500 hours... and in a very limited form of flying (almost all daylight VFR). From here, I don't see the need. School me.

Well, I have a little less than 950 hours, and I've done the Density Altitude, TO&L distance calcs exactly once for real. I agree with you that most of our flying doesn't need these types of calculations.

I'm not counting the time I had to do them for my PPL checkride. Didn't have to do them for my IFR ride or my CPL checkride for either ASEL or ASES.

The one time I did them for real was prior to landing and taking off at Monument Valley, UT (UT25). UT25 has a 4000 ft runway, but it's at 5192' elevation, and the temperature that day was about 30-31 C, and the Hg setting was low, so the density altitude was on the order of 9500' or more. Landing runway is 34 which faces a large cliff (check out the Airnav page) making a go around somewhat iffy. Takeoff is in the other direction. I did all the calcs for landing and takeoff distance and expected rate of climb that day to make sure I had plenty of margin. That's the one time I felt it absolutely necessary to do the calcs.

Weight and Balance, on the other hand, I almost always do when dealing with a new loading situation. However, there are really good apps for that task...

Other than that one time, I never needed to do the detailed calcs. Rules of thumb, mental math, and estimates work fine for the vast majority of situations.


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I'm going to go at this from the other side, and take the thread title literally. ;)

As an instructor, if you don't know how to use a whiz wheel, or if you're only teaching it "for the test", don't teach it.
 
I've made some long cross countries. Long meaning over 3 days flying by hand, no autopilot. Planned all my stops out.... Had a shoe box of charts. Had GPS, but always had the charts open with a pencil marking current position. VOR's were always set so I could triangulate position if I lost the GPS. I was over a broken cloud layer somewhere in Minnesota and lost the GPS for over an hour. No big deal because I had my paper charts and VOR's already set up.

Besides it helped with the boredom of cruising at 100kts for my 4 to 5 hour legs.

So yes teach the old school stuff it works...
 
Can you provide a specific example, along with the correct answer and its source?

are you even a pilot??
turn your kolsman window to 29.92,,, read the altitude,, it is pressure altitude...
read your outside air temperature,,,
wizz your E6B wheel to line up your pressure altitude against the outside air temperature,,, Read your Density Altitude!!!
 
I think first step is to define "old tech". Do you need to learn how to hand prop an airplane? How about how to take off using skids on grass? How and when to properly warp the wings? Navigate using mail routes?

Absolutely. Everyone should learn how to hand prop a plane.
I do it all the time. :)

Seriously. A lot of modern aircraft can still be hand propped to solve a bunch of problems, not the least of which is a dead battery.
 
Absolutely. Everyone should learn how to hand prop a plane.
I do it all the time. :)

Seriously. A lot of modern aircraft can still be hand propped to solve a bunch of problems, not the least of which is a dead battery.

They can be. But should we be teaching everyone how to do it? When you learn but never practice, you don't really know, you just think you do.

At some point every technology gets replaced - while we can (and some do) still cook over firepits, I suspect the number of people who know how is far less than 1%. I'm a fan of things that don't fail, things that depend on physics, but even I have to admit that all the whiz-bang electronics do a better job. Still, the more the complicated they make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drains.
 
Every pilot should be considering the type of flying they do, the type of plane they're in, where they're going, and their own competency for every flight and asking "what do I do if this fails, or that fails?" "What if the entire panel dies unexpectedly? What if my EFB device fails?". You need to have an answer that YOU will be able of reliably carrying out that will get you to safety... not even necessarily your destination or home but at least to safety.

What tools you use to do this don't really matter as long as your way works and you should probably practice that way now and then or at least work it out on the ground.

For me, if I'm reasonably close to home and I have plenty of fuel(which I always do because I normally fly with 1.8hrs+ of reserve) if all else fails and I have no landmarks I know, my whole panel, ipad, and phone are dead I just turn towards the Mississippi river. My home airport is 10nm from the river and there's a large town with a pair of distinctive bridges going across right on the river. I will, at the very least know which side of the river I'm on and if I'm to the N or the S.... at which point I can just follow the river and find home.

If I'm not near home it gets less simple but I at least should know where I was when the GPS went down and what course I'm on. I pay attention to where the airports are so most likely I just land somewhere and figure it out. And this is only in the event I lose the whole panel and both my phone and ipad... and only because foreflight IS my sectional in some cases. I find the odds of all of those things going out at once to be remote. I might change strategy if/when I fly outside of the midwest and east/southern coast areas I'm used to but for now it works.

The E6B doesn't come into any of my current scenarios because for one I'm not proficient with it and I don't put myself in situations where I need that level of precision to get to safety.
 
are you even a pilot??
turn your kolsman window to 29.92,,, read the altitude,, it is pressure altitude...
read your outside air temperature,,,
wizz your E6B wheel to line up your pressure altitude against the outside air temperature,,, Read your Density Altitude!!!
You might read the post I responded to...@HAPPYDAN said that method's not accurate.
 
Every pilot should be considering the type of flying they do, the type of plane they're in, where they're going, and their own competency for every flight and asking "what do I do if this fails, or that fails?" "What if the entire panel dies unexpectedly? What if my EFB device fails?". You need to have an answer that YOU will be able of reliably carrying out that will get you to safety... not even necessarily your destination or home but at least to safety.

What tools you use to do this don't really matter as long as your way works and you should probably practice that way now and then or at least work it out on the ground.

For me, if I'm reasonably close to home and I have plenty of fuel(which I always do because I normally fly with 1.8hrs+ of reserve) if all else fails and I have no landmarks I know, my whole panel, ipad, and phone are dead I just turn towards the Mississippi river. My home airport is 10nm from the river and there's a large town with a pair of distinctive bridges going across right on the river. I will, at the very least know which side of the river I'm on and if I'm to the N or the S.... at which point I can just follow the river and find home.

If I'm not near home it gets less simple but I at least should know where I was when the GPS went down and what course I'm on. I pay attention to where the airports are so most likely I just land somewhere and figure it out. And this is only in the event I lose the whole panel and both my phone and ipad... and only because foreflight IS my sectional in some cases. I find the odds of all of those things going out at once to be remote. I might change strategy if/when I fly outside of the midwest and east/southern coast areas I'm used to but for now it works.

The E6B doesn't come into any of my current scenarios because for one I'm not proficient with it and I don't put myself in situations where I need that level of precision to get to safety.
My daily use of the whiz wheel has nothing to do with failures...and as someone noted, it's one of the easiest ways to see how errors in winds aloft or other factors will affect the flight.
 
does anyone have a recommendation for a cal lab? My E6B is way way out of date...
 
You might read the post I responded to...@HAPPYDAN said that method's not accurate.
At least not on the cheapo Chinese-made cardboard thing I was issued when I enrolled in a ground school course! Many good, free aps available provide an accurate result. But that degree wheel..
 
You might read the post I responded to...@HAPPYDAN said that method's not accurate.
At least not on the cheapo Chinese-made cardboard thing I was issued when I enrolled in a ground school course! Many good, free aps available provide an accurate result. But that degree wheel..
 
mr-spock.jpg

If it's good enough for him . . . . .
 
Seriously, arguing over a frickin' mechanical calculator?
The E6B was invented long before digital calculators, and even longer before smart-phone apps that perform the same function and more.

The fact of the matter is that if you can't do the same calculations that either does with a piece of paper and a pencil, you don't belong in the cockpit.
 
Back to the OP's main question "should we still teach old tech" I think the answer is a conditional "yes" because I believe it is important to help in understanding the fundamentals behind many core concepts of aviation and helps lay a strong foundation for good ADM

There is a difference in memorizing vs knowing vs understanding. I haven't used an E6B since training days and probably never will again, but for me at least it did help me understand the relationships between time, distance, etc.

If I were an instructor I'd have my students do their first couple cross countries the old school method with wind calculation angles, times, and a stopwatch. Later we can move to the magenta line, but I think the core foundational concepts are important

Anyway... my $0.02
 
Do any grades in schools still teach long division anymore, or do they just teach how to use a calculator?
 
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