Should I Fly the Arrow?

Skid

Skid

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Skid
My experience has been fairly limited to Cessnas and I'm looking to start doing some trips with myself and 3 other passengers in the near future. Contrary to what I thought, the Arrow at the school has one of the highest useful loads of ~1050lbs. It's a 1975 Arrow II and has alway been kind of the dusty plane in the corner. It always seemed like a good cross country contender though with a modest price/hr, decent cruise, and now payload to boot.

While I think it would be good to venture outside of my comfort zone and continue on with a different type of plane, part of me has some reservations of flying a new animal with little experience and the distractions of 3 passengers.

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are about its handling and mannerisms in the hands of a new pilot? Doing some quick reading it looks like it has an auto-gear extension...never heard of this before, but seems like it would ease my worries some. Maybe I should start out in a warrior/archer/cherokee first and get used to the different types of procedures?

There's also the choice of a C182T which I'm biased towards since it's more of what I'm used to. Its more expensive, but has that newness for passengers who may not care for the 1970s look :D
 
It's flys just like any other Cherokee, except the wheels go up and, hopefully, down. Do it! You'll probably at get at least a 5 hours checkout anyway for insurance so nothing to be afeared of. The C182T good plane too. Just do both!
 
It's the least "complex" complex plane I've flown. If it's available to you and fits your mission, do it.
 
As MSCard says they are both nice airplanes and each has its own advantages and disadvantages. I wouldn't really be too concerned about stepping up from 172's to either. Both are going to have new things with you (prop control), different speeds, etc...

My suggestion to you is to get some time to read through the POHs on the one you're going to fly. Learn the important speeds (Vr, Vx, Vy, Vs, and approach speeds) and the power settings required for each realm of flight (in most cases balls-to-the-wall for take-off and climb and something more conservative for approach). Some time in the cockpit following the checklists so you can find all the gauges and controls easily will save you some flight time (and money).
 
Arrow is like a heavy Cherokee. Doesn't glide well, practice your pattern engine outs! But other than that a fine airplane, and getting your complex endorsement will make you a more accomplished pilot.


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I prefer the arrow for cross countries.

Go for it.


mscard88 said:
...You'll probably at get at least a 5 hours checkout anyway ..
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5 hours?!

Depending on how much time and what he's got on his ticket is already complex endorsed, I'd think more like a hour.
 
James331 said:
I prefer the arrow for cross countries.

Go for it.




5 hours?!

Depending on how much time and what he's got on his ticket is already complex endorsed, I'd think more like a hour.
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My bet is he will need the complex endorsement and that would be more like the 5 hours....


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James331 said:
I prefer the arrow for cross countries.

Go for it.




5 hours?!

Depending on how much time and what he's got on his ticket is already complex endorsed, I'd think more like a hour.
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I have no idea James. But I would think insurance or the FBO/flight school would dictate the requirement. Or even the CFI if it takes that amount of time for instance. Sure you and I could get checked out in an hour. The flight school here had a C182RG and the owner told me I would require 10 hours dual before I could rent it, even though I have plenty of 182RG time. Needless to say I don't rent that plane. Screw that!
 
The Arrow is an easy transition from a Cessna for many/most folks. You sit a little differently and the wing quits flying a little differently. Neither are big deals. The gear drops by releasing hydraulic pressure and it is a very simple system. Never a need to pump the gear down. Of course the down side of the Arrow is that it is slow for a retract. One other thing...with a retract GUMPS becomes Gear down, Undercarriage, Make sure the gear is down, Please check that gear is down, are you Sure the gear is down.
 
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so wait, do you have your complex endorsement? get that first, then fly the sheite out of that arrow. easy plane to fly.
 
I always taught GUMP as gas checked (fullest tank etc), undercarriage (gear) down, mixture (rich or as needed), prop set.
 
James331 said:
I prefer the arrow for cross countries.

Go for it.

5 hours?!

Depending on how much time and what he's got on his ticket is already complex endorsed, I'd think more like a hour.
Click to expand...

Already complex endorsed, but it was 3 years ago, in a 172RG. I got the endorsement, found the plane would randomly lose all electric power, school refused to fix it, and that was the end of that. So I have maybe an hour or two in a real "complex", but wouldn't say I'm proficient by any means.
 
mscard88 said:
I always taught GUMP as gas checked (fullest tank etc), undercarriage (gear) down, mixture (rich or as needed), prop set.
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Isn't that nice. Has POA lost any hope of ever having a sense of humor?
 
gsengle said:
My bet is he will need the complex endorsement and that would be more like the 5 hours....


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Probably insurance is going to want more than that.
 
James331 said:
Depending on how much time and what he's got on his ticket is already complex endorsed, I'd think more like a hour.
Click to expand...
gsengle said:
My bet is he will need the complex endorsement and that would be more like the 5 hours....
Click to expand...

Most of the complex planes at our club require minimum 25 complex time, or in lieu of that they'll accept 10 hours of flight training in *that* plane. That's a barrier to entry for someone like me. I do have some complex time (in an Arrow coincidentally) but not the 25 hrs they require

Was thinking a "two birds one stone" idea would be to do the instrument rating instructor portions in a complex plane at the club to get the hours out...
 
Clark1961 said:
Isn't that nice. Has POA lost any hope of ever having a sense of humor?
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Actually, I think the joke version has a point too. The other elements don't matter much if you forget to put the gear down. Well, with exception of seatbelts.
 
paflyer said:
You mean not as good as a Cherokee? :oops:
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Its a bit like the space shuttle of PA-28s when coming in

I'm glad my complex transition instructor did a ton of engine outs with me. Not long after I had to dead stick an arrow from downwind. Glad I had practiced, you have to appreciate the sink rate.


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Salty said:
Actually, I think the joke version has a point too. The other elements don't matter much if you forget to put the gear down. Well, with exception of seatbelts.
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Yeah it's a joke but one that might be a good reminder.
 
Might as well fly them both. That way you can pick up both the HP and the COMPLEX endorsement. Given the two planes, you can't do both of them in either alone.
 
gsengle said:
Not long after I had to dead stick an arrow from downwind
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Are there single engine complex pistons that allow feathering of the prop for dead sticks? I've read that most single engine default to full fine in oil pressure loss, so you must drop like a brick in that case...
 
Tantalum said:
Are there single engine complex pistons that allow feathering of the prop for dead sticks? I've read that most single engine default to full fine in oil pressure loss, so you must drop like a brick in that case...
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Nope. They go to high rpm as the failure mode. Which is the right trade off.

The windmilling prop isn't that huge a factor, the reality is in a single with no engine you're landing very soon.


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^interesting, thanks!
 
gsengle said:
Nope. They go to high rpm as the failure mode. Which is the right trade off.
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That's what he said. Full fine is high RPM.
The windmilling prop isn't that huge a factor, the reality is in a single with no engine you're landing very soon.
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It may not be huge, but it is noticeable. As long as you've not totally lost oil pressure, you can still adjust the prop.
 
flyingron said:
That's what he said. Full fine is high RPM.


It may not be huge, but it is noticeable. As long as you've not totally lost oil pressure, you can still adjust the prop.
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Yep I wasn't saying he was wrong, I was confirming that the failure mode is high rpm/fine pitch.


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Skid said:
There's also the choice of a C182T which I'm biased towards since it's more of what I'm used to. Its more expensive, but has that newness for passengers who may not care for the 1970s look :D
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If it has good avionics, especially for IFR flights, I'd say it's a great plan to fly the Arrow. It's great to have a plane that's very available for traveling. Plus, flyingron's suggestion is good as well, more from an availability perspective to me than endorsements.

We flew an Arrow around with the family. Not the fastest plane, but better speed than flying in 172. That one had small tanks, 48 gallon, so more full fuel (how many rentals are left) payload than most 172's as well.
 
flyingron said:
That's what he said. Full fine is high RPM.


It may not be huge, but it is noticeable. As long as you've not totally lost oil pressure, you can still adjust the prop.
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If it's windmilling, it's under governing range anyway so it will be at fine pitch regardless of what you do with the prop control.
 
Sac Arrow said:
If it's windmilling, it's under governing range anyway so it will be at fine pitch regardless of what you do with the prop control.
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It would probably be bad to pull the prop all the way back if the engine was still producing some power. And if it wasn't making power it's not going to do anything anyway.
 
Sac Arrow said:
If it's windmilling, it's under governing range anyway so it will be at fine pitch regardless of what you do with the prop control.
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I'm not convinced that is the case. You can certainly feel it with the throttle closed. I've never tried it with the engine completely shutdown, however.
 
flyingron said:
I'm not convinced that is the case. You can certainly feel it with the throttle closed. I've never tried it with the engine completely shutdown, however.
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Interesting. I'll have to try that.
 
I don't think trying out a new aircraft type is ever a bad idea.

Have fun!
 
Actually, I found the Arrow easier to fly than the 182. Most of my prior experience was smaller Cessnas (150, 152, 170, 172). The only prior Cherokee experience to the Arrow was one checkout flight in an Archer a decade earlier.
 
gsengle said:
My bet is he will need the complex endorsement and that would be more like the 5 hours....


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Click to expand...

ahh, no complex endorsement, could easily see 5 hours, if not more RG time before non dual ops.
 
mscard88 said:
I always taught GUMP as gas checked (fullest tank etc), undercarriage (gear) down, mixture (rich or as needed), prop set.
Click to expand...

You missed S. Some say Seat belts and others say Safety, but GUMP should be plural :)
And what's all this talk of Arrow? Airworthiness, Registration, Radio station licence, Operating limitations, Weight & Balance.

Seriously though - Fly the Arrow. I like them much better than the 172RG, but apparently not as much as the 177RG :)
 
Tantalum said:
Most of the complex planes at our club require minimum 25 complex time, or in lieu of that they'll accept 10 hours of flight training in *that* plane. That's a barrier to entry for someone like me. I do have some complex time (in an Arrow coincidentally) but not the 25 hrs they require

Was thinking a "two birds one stone" idea would be to do the instrument rating instructor portions in a complex plane at the club to get the hours out...
Click to expand...
Speak to the owner.

I got an exception at my current club for a 177RG, based on previous 177RG time well under the 25 hour minimum at the time. It helped that I could rattle off all its quirks (especially the crossover fuel vent).
 
MAKG1 said:
Speak to the owner.
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I may just do that. Ultimately it would be for the Debonair the club has in the other thread I asked about (or maybe a new-ish Arrow that will be coming on line).. but for now while I'm still about 10 hrs or so away from that 50 hrs XC PIC requirement for instrument I don't mind cruising a little slower and watching the Hobbs time tick up. Part of the reason I don't fly the Cirrus much.. it's more expensive and even the SR20 will have me doing at 135-145 true. With a low econ cruise power setting the 172 settles in around 107-112, at least the one at the club with wheel pants and 180 conversion)
 
Insurance required 10 hours of instruction in the Arrow despite the fact I already had 15 hours in the 172RG. I had some Cherokee time already so transition was easy. I always practiced GUMPS even when flying fixed gear aircraft. Hardest part was compensating for the sink rate with the gear down which really wasn't difficult - just keep the pattern tight and power up. The Arrow is a great airplane, my only issue is the limited range for the Arrow II with 48 gallons usable. If you're considering long cross country flights that may sway your decision to the 182.

Be cognizant of the auto-extend feature of the Arrow. There have been accidents where the gear extends unexpectedly at low speeds which created sudden drag which the pilot couldn't compensate. There is a lever that overrides the auto-extend so it isn't an issue if you know you're gonna be low and slow.
 
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