Seven US Navy crew missing after collision off Japan

[Fearless Tower]

I don't have first hand knowledge but second hand story is that the locals operate on the theory that the biggest ship has the right of way in Tokyo bay. Dunno if it's true or not.

Not exactly. I've sailed those waters...its extremely busy. Chaos and orderly at the same time.

 

[Fearless Tower]

As i understand it most commercial vessels had AIS transceivers since the 90s. It's just that IMO made them mandatory in 2002.

You understand incorrectly.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Here's a picture of the bow of the ACX Crystal. I wonder how much damage there is below the waterline on both vessels.

View attachment 54356

From what the Navy has publicly released, both forward berthing compartments are flooded. The forwards auxiliary machine room is flooded and radio had taken on water. That is 100% from being pierced by that now.

The merchant is relatively fine. They will dry dock it, cut the bulbous bow off and weld on a new one. Really nothing to flood up there.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Sometimes the light pattern you think you see is not what you should be seeing.

Very true. This is what I was getting at with the lights on the destroyer. Because the ship has a single raked mast, both masthead lights are on the same mast which by design doesn't meet the lighting requirement (Navy gets waivers for Nav lights).

That close separation can create interesting illusions making the ship aspect to look very different at night if you aren't familiar with it

 

[Fearless Tower]

Aluminum superstructure against steel hull I think..

DDG superstructure is steel, not aluminum like Frigates or Spruance class destroyers.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Art, love ya man, but just too soon.

There are 7 sailors who are most likely dead in the flooded berthing compartments right now.

Yeah, your right, my bad. Sorry about that. I kept hoping they'd be found alive and well in another part of the boat.

 

[weilke]

I have no clue what you are talking about, but I've been a professional mariner for over 20 years. There were no transponders on ships 20 years ago. The ADS-B like system has only really been around for about 10 years.

I was incorrect to assume that this was in general distribution. What I was familiar with from the early 80s must have been a company system in the persian gulf.

 

[mtuomi]

From what the Navy has publicly released, both forward berthing compartments are flooded. The forwards auxiliary machine room is flooded and radio had taken on water. That is 100% from being pierced by that now.

This does not sound good

 

[N747JB]

They found the seven bodies inside the ship, very sad. It's hard to believe that two ships this size can run into each other, especially in good weather!

 

[Mike Smith]

very sad, prayers for the families.

 

[X3 Skier]

Terrible news. My thoughts for the families.

 

[3393RP]

Rest easy, sailors.

 

[Shepherd]

I was talking to the kid across the street. He's a Lt Commander, and a Nuclear Weapons Officer aboard a sub, home on leave.
He says: Heads are going to roll, and there are going to be some serious jail sentences meted for a bunch of people from that destroyer.

 

[Skip Miller]

Here's a picture of the bow of the ACX Crystal. I wonder how much damage there is below the waterline on both vessels.

View attachment 54356

It is that bulbous bow on the container ship that did the most damage to the Fitzgerald.

TV news has the container ship doing a U-turn and heading back for the DD before the collision. It looks like complete lack of SA on the part of the watch crew on the Fitzgerald. A Destroyer is very maneuverable when compared to the container ship. No excuse for the OOD of the DD (or of the containership for that matter). The fact that the CO of the Fitz was down in his stateroom is a big negative for the OOD. "Call me if you have any concerns at all" is part of the standing orders for every OOD. Sad, and RIP to the sailors and their families who paid the ultimate price. -Skip

 

[Fearless Tower]

It is that bulbous bow on the container ship that did the most damage to the Fitzgerald.

Yes, that is why there was so much flooding and loss of life. That bow pierced the hull right about where the two forward berthing compartments are. It wasn't quite a full t-bone, but certainly not a glancing blow.

 

[Matthew]

I saw some reports that the timeline may not be correct. That the U turn might have happenned after impact.

When the Fitzgerald gets into drydock, the puncture damage from that bulbous bow should look incredible.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I saw some reports that the timeline may not be correct. That the U turn happenned after impact.

When the Fitzgerald gets into drydock, the puncture from that bulbous bow should look incredible.

A lot of people, including the news are trying to grab anything they can and make something of it. I honestly don't think you can piece together anything of value from that AIS track than you can something off FlightAware. I think the internet AIS trackers are just as susceptible to glitches as flightaware is.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I was incorrect to assume that this was in general distribution. What I was familiar with from the early 80s must have been a company system in the persian gulf.

That makes sense. There probably were company tracking transponders around then, just not anything that government agencies or other vessels could utilize. That didn't happen until much later.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I kept hoping they'd be found alive and well in another part of the boat.

Me too.

 

[weilke]

I saw some reports that the timeline may not be correct. That the U turn might have happenned after impact.

When the Fitzgerald gets into drydock, the puncture damage from that bulbous bow should look incredible.

Looking at the pictures, this looks more like a shallow impact. There may not be as deep an underwater hole as a T-bone impact would have created.

 

[3393RP]

I dunno about that. The underwater part of the bow is at least 3 meters longer than the weather deck prow on most container ships I've seen photos of.

The ship lost propulsion and had to be towed in. I'm assuming the impact caused enough damage to the gas turbines and associated components that they were rendered unserviceable.

The Reuters story linked below from gcaptain.com, the most knowledgeable marine news website on the internet, quotes a Navy official as saying the ship almost foundered and the damage below the waterline is significant.


http://gcaptain.com/uss-fitzgerald-pulls-drydock-damage-said-significant/

 

[rickinnocal]

I have no clue what you are talking about, but I've been a professional mariner for over 20 years. There were no transponders on ships 20 years ago.

20 years ago was 1997. The first AIS systems came out in 1992, although they were rare in the early years. USA flagged ships were among the last to install them due to resistance from the Unions, which saw the ability to record AIS data as being akin to the truckers opposition to tachygraphs as "the spy in the cab".

The ADS-B like system has only really been around for about 10 years.

It's been mandatory for commercial vessels over 300 tonnes since 2002, which is 15 years.

One of the problems with AIS - which could well be a factor here - is that it is SO good a tool that watchkeepers come to rely on it too much.

At night, in clear weather, in a densely crowded main shipping channel (such as the one where this collision occurred) the horizon is just a mass of nav lights, and the radar screen is just a mass of dots. Right now, Marine Traffic shows over 100 AIS equipped ships in the area, to which you can add God alone knows how many fishing and recreational vessels without AIS. The AIS screen with its nice clear list of who is who, and where, and going which way, with Closest Point of Approach neatly calculated and tabulated, is the OOW's best friend, allowing him to really just look out for the small craft. This is especially true in this era of reduced crews and STCW limitation of hours rules, when I guarantee that the 2nd Mate and one lookout are the only people awake at 0230.

Things are a little simplified by the fact that the vast majority of those ships are heading Northeast or Southwest on basically the same course. This, however, makes it really easy to miss a ship with non-standard Nav lights, and her AIS turned off, (USN ships DO have AIS transponders, but the law allows them to turn them off, which they usually do) crossing the traffic lane at high speed.

Imagine driving on the freeway at night, three lanes of heavy traffic in each direction, and someone crosses the freeway on a dirtbike with their headlight off at twice your speed.

Richard

 

[Fearless Tower]

It's been mandatory for commercial vessels over 300 tonnes since 2002, which is 15 years.

That may have been a goal, kind of like the FAA's ADS-B mandate, but I didn't see my first AIS unit on a US Flag ship until much later than 2002.

 

[Matthew]

I dunno about that. The underwater part of the bow is at least 3 meters longer than the weather deck prow on most container ships I've seen photos of.

The ship lost propulsion and had to be towed in. I'm assuming the impact caused enough damage to the gas turbines and associated components that they were rendered unserviceable.

The Reuters story linked below from gcaptain.com, the most knowledgeable marine news website on the internet, quotes a Navy official as saying the ship almost foundered and the damage below the waterline is significant.


http://gcaptain.com/uss-fitzgerald-pulls-drydock-damage-said-significant/

Couldn't find a better photo of the accident ship, but this is similar.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Looking at the pictures, this looks more like a shallow impact. There may not be as deep an underwater hole as a T-bone impact would have created.

A shallow impact would not likely have flooded both berthing compartments, radio and the forward aux machine room. While this was a direct 90 degree T-bone based on the damage to the merchant's port bow, I expect to see a hole very similar to COLE when the ship is out of the water.

 

[3393RP]

The ship photo posted above looks like a bulk carrier. Here's a photo of one of the Maersk Triple E container ships. They are huge and can carry about 18,000 TEUs, so they are larger than the accident ship.

I should also like to add that based upon comments from Seventh Fleet Command, prompt and skillful action of the damage control parties prevented the sinking of the Fitzgerald.

This reflects very much credit on the engineering officers, CPOs, and sailors who made up the damage control parties of the Fitzgerald and those of our peacetime Navy overall.

Well done.

 

[Matthew]

The ship photo posted above looks like a bulk carrier. Here's a photo of one of the Maersk Triple E container ships. They are huge and can carry about 18,000 TEUs, so they are larger than the accident ship.

I should also like to add that based upon comments from Seventh Fleet Command, prompt and skillful action of the damage control parties saved the ship from sinking.

This reflects very much credit on the engineering officers, the CPOs, and the sailors who made up the damage control parties of the Fitzgerald and those of our peacetime Navy overall.

Well done.

Post #37 has a photo of the actual ship involved. The photo in post #64 shows that style of bow a little more clearly.

Yeah, the Fitzgerald took one hell of a hit.

My nephew and I are pretty close, he's on a sub. The training and seriousness of dealing with any kind of emergency on-board his boat, and surface ships, is not something the crew takes lightly.

 

[Bill]

Sounds to me like DC did a hell of a job keeping that ship afloat. If/when the Navy releases photos, I believe we're going to see a big honkin' hole in the side of that boat. I didn't really enjoy my time on the Buttercup.

 

[Matthew]

For comparison, USS Cole (same class as the Fitzgerald). 17 killed, 39 injured.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Unconfirmed report through the active sailor/ex-sailor network says that the cargo ship had its lights & transponder turned off.
Waiting for more info.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Unconfirmed report through the active sailor/ex-sailor network says that the cargo ship had its lights & transponder turned off.
Waiting for more info.

Highly unlikely. The fact that you can see the merchant's track on the internet would indicate that it was transmitting. Also, while possible the lights were off, merchants rarely turn their nav lights off during the daylight like the Navy does, so it's unlikely they forgot.

Unless folks are confused and they meant to say the DDG was not transmitting AIS and had its lights off (or dimmed -done for NVG flight ops).

 

[3393RP]

It still stings to see photos of the Cole.

 

[Matthew]

It still stings to see photos of the Cole.

Yeah. A lot of people have forgotten about that one, and the Stark.

https://news.usni.org/2017/05/17/the-attack-uss-stark-at-30

 

[weilke]

Unconfirmed report through the active sailor/ex-sailor network says that the cargo ship had its lights & transponder turned off.
Waiting for more info.

Except that anyone can go on marinetraffic.com and see the vessels entire trip up to and including the collision: fake news

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Highly unlikely. The fact that you can see the merchant's track on the internet would indicate that it was transmitting. Also, while possible the lights were off, merchants rarely turn their nav lights off during the daylight like the Navy does, so it's unlikely they forgot.

Unless folks are confused and they meant to say the DDG was not transmitting AIS and had its lights off (or dimmed -done for NVG flight ops).

Except that anyone can go on marinetraffic.com and see the vessels entire trip up to and including the collision: fake news

Fake, maybe, more likely what Fearless Tower posted...after the news has passed through 3-4 people (at least one being a parent) it got distorted from "we didn't have" to "they didn't have".

 

[3393RP]

Yeah. A lot of people have forgotten about that one, and the Stark.

https://news.usni.org/2017/05/17/the-attack-uss-stark-at-30

Thanks so much for the link. The 30th anniversary of the attack on the USS Stark (FFG-31) was just one month ago, on 17 May.

Again I must comment on the bravery and reaction to adversity by the young crew members of another stricken US Navy ship.

Among many other acts of valor that day, Petty Officer Third Class Wayne Richard Weaver II earned the Navy and Marine Corps Medal for Heroism and the Purple Heart for his acts of bravery and exemplary courageous conduct after the missile attack on the Stark. PO3 Weaver was just 22 years old when he died while saving the lives of his crew members. The Navy and Marine Corps Medal is the highest non-combat decoration awarded for heroism by the United States Department of the Navy to the members of the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps.

Reading the description of the attack below by Lt. Art Conklin, USN, Stark’s damage control assistant, should make your throat catch and your eyes water a bit.

At approximately 2112, l heard the horrible sound of grinding metal and my first thought was that we had collided with another ship. I immediately opened my stateroom door and headed for Damage Control (DC) Central. Within a fraction of a second I knew we were in trouble. I smelled missile exhaust and heard over the 1MC, “inbound missile, port side… all hands brace for shock!” Then general quarters (GQ) sounded and I saw the crew move faster than they ever had before.

The first missile had slammed into the ship under the port bridge wing, about eight feet above the waterline. It’s speed at impact was more than 600 miles per hour. The warhead did not explode, but the missile did deposit several hundred pounds of burning rocket propellant as it passed through passageways, berthing compartments, the barbershop, post office, and chief petty officer quarters. And although we did not know it at the time, the missile still had most of its fuel on board, since it had traveled only 22 miles from me launching aircraft to our ship.

The potent mix of the missile’s fuel and oxidizer resulted in fires hotter than 3,500° Fahrenheit that instantly ignited all combustibles and melted structural materials. This temperature was nearly double the 1,800° normally considered the upper limit in shipboard fires.

About 30 seconds later, the second missile struck the Stark eight feet forward of the first missile’s point of impact. It traveled only five feet into the skin of the ship and then exploded with a tremendous roar. Later analysis determined that the damage, while significant, was not as great as might have been expected because a large portion of the blast’s effect was vented away from the interior of the ship, creating a huge, gaping hole in the process. This reflects the results of the ship’s strong Damage Control preparation.

Within minutes, nearly one-fifth of the crew had been killed and many others had been overcome by smoke, bums, and shrapnel wounds. The remaining crewmembers had a monumental task ahead of them, yet they plunged ahead.

I witnessed countless acts of heroism throughout the night: Electronics Technician Third Class Wayne R. Weaver II sacrificed his own life to assist many crewmembers to safety from the primary missile blast zone. Seaman Mark R. Caoutte, despite severe burns, shrapnel wounds and the loss of one leg, continued to set Zebra in an area being consumed by fire. Gunner's Mate Third Class Mark Samples risked his life for 12 hours, spraying cooling water inside the ship’s missile magazine. Had it exploded, the Stark would have gone to the bottom.

Thanks to the intensive first-aid training given to the crew, Mess Management Specialist Second Class Francis Burke was directly responsible for resuscitating many smoke inhalation cases. Many other heroic acts were performed, but they all had a common thread: In each of these cases, the crewmembers acted correctly, using their training to solve a complex casualty.

 

[rickinnocal]

That may have been a goal, kind of like the FAA's ADS-B mandate, but I didn't see my first AIS unit on a US Flag ship until much later than 2002.

That's that union pushback I mentioned.

I was already a Class surveyor by 2002, and for ships other than US flag ships in US waters, or with a Port State waiver if in other waters, lack of a functioning AIS was a mandatory PSC detention.

Richard

 

[3393RP]

Here's a link to several high resolution photos on gcaptain.com:

http://gcaptain.com/high-resolution-photos-us-navy-destroyer-collision/

This is a link to the most recent news on the accident on gcaptain.com:

http://gcaptain.com/investigators-seek-answers-into-containerships-collision-with-uss-fitzgerald/

This particular image is from an angle I have not seen before, and it allows one to consider the significant amount of damage which must exist below the waterline.

Sadly, the article also identifies the crew members who lost their lives in the incident:

The U.S. Navy on Monday identified the dead sailors as: Dakota Kyle Rigsby, 19, from Palmyra, Virginia; Shingo Alexander Douglass, 25, from San Diego, California; Ngoc T Truong Huynh, 25, from Oakville, Connecticut; Noe Hernandez, 26, from Weslaco, Texas; Carlos Victor Ganzon Sibayan, 23, from Chula Vista, California; Xavier Alec Martin, 24, from Halethorpe, Maryland; and Gary Leo Rehm Jr., 37, from Elyria, Ohio.

Two of three injured crew members who were evacuated from the ship by helicopter, including the ship’s commanding officer, Commander Bryce Benson, were released from the U.S. Naval Hospital in Yokosuka, the U.S. Navy’s Seventh Fleet said on its Facebook page on Monday. The last sailor remained in hospital and no details were given about his condition.

 

[NoHeat]

Here's a link to several high resolution photos on gcaptain.com:

http://gcaptain.com/high-resolution-photos-us-navy-destroyer-collision/

This photo of the cargo ship makes it appear that it struck the destroyer from the rear quarter.

 

[rickinnocal]

Again I must comment on the bravery and reaction to adversity by the young crew members of another stricken US Navy ship.

Unfortunately, it's almost a truism that crews - or people in general - tend to rise to the occasion and perform magnificently when everything goes pear shaped and lives are on the line. It's when they are doing something routine they've done a hundred times before without incident that they get sloppy.

That the captain of the Fitzgerald was asleep in his bunk at the time of the impact is telling in that respect - it is as clear evidence as can be that right up to the "Oh, F##K!" moment the OOW and bridge crew thought everything was just rolling along smoothly. Had there been concerns ahead of time, he would certainly have been called.

Richard