Seven US Navy crew missing after collision off Japan

I wonder if the merchant's bridge was occupied, or they were on "Iron Mike" (autopilot). Those vessels are very lightly manned, max 2 dozen crew. I remember calling up a merch and asking him to speed up a bit to open the CPA (I was passing behind him). He said he would be glad to do it, but he would have to wake someone up to change the bell and they would be paid overtime, so he could not.

The other impression I remember is that in general the men manning merchant ships were much more comfortable with close CPA's, anything over 2000 yds was fine to them, whereas our skipper wanted to know if anything would pass within 8000 yds.
 
I wonder if the merchant's bridge was occupied, or they were on "Iron Mike" (autopilot).

They would almost certainly have been on autopilot. There is virtually never anyone at the wheel of a merchant vessel except when maneuvering.

Those vessels are very lightly manned, max 2 dozen crew.

Very lightly. I was on a 190,000T, 18,000 TEU ship the day before yesterday with 21 crew.

I remember calling up a merch and asking him to speed up a bit to open the CPA (I was passing behind him). He said he would be glad to do it, but he would have to wake someone up to change the bell and they would be paid overtime, so he could not.

He was ringing your bell :) When the E/R is unmanned the engine is on bridge control.

The other impression I remember is that in general the men manning merchant ships were much more comfortable with close CPA's, anything over 2000 yds was fine to them, whereas our skipper wanted to know if anything would pass within 8000 yds.

Funny how one sees things.... it was always my impression that "grey funnel line" ships, especially the smaller ones such as frigates and destroyers, were much more willing to rely on their speed and maneuverability to cut far closer to other vessels than we would have dared.

I actually got pretty ticked off a few weeks ago while on board an anchored vessel in Long Beach harbor. The anchorage was fairly crowded, and the ship (A Panamax size tanker) had a fuel barge alongside. Two large USN hovercraft came through the anchorage going like the proverbial bats out of hell, and came a lot closer to us than I thought was prudent.

Richard
 
I remember calling up a merch and asking him to speed up a bit to open the CPA (I was passing behind him). He said he would be glad to do it, but he would have to wake someone up to change the bell and they would be paid overtime, so he could not.
A lot of Navy guys don't realize that when merchant diesel ships get past the sea buoy, they start shifting over to Heavy Fuel Oil and cranking up the RPMs. Changing speed in open water is not an easy thing to do, so all collision avoidance is done with course changes.
 
Funny how one sees things.... it was always my impression that "grey funnel line" ships, especially the smaller ones such as frigates and destroyers, were much more willing to rely on their speed and maneuverability to cut far closer to other vessels than we would have dared.

Depends on what the ship is doing. With the CO on the bridge, yes, grey hulls are much more comfortable getting close due to the better ability to change speed and general maneuverability.

But at 0100-0200..... the OOD isn't cutting anything close....if anything he is hoping to avoid calling the Captain.
 
Latest news is saying the merchant didn't start turning back to the scene until at least 30 minutes after the collision and didn't notify the Japanese Coast Guard of the incident until a full hour after.
 
Latest news is saying the merchant didn't start turning back to the scene until at least 30 minutes after the collision and didn't notify the Japanese Coast Guard of the incident until a full hour after.
I'm going to assume that someone on that ship was awake and noticed the impact.
 
Very lightly. I was on a 190,000T, 18,000 TEU ship the day before yesterday with 21 crew.

Richard

I appreciate you contributing your obviously relevant knowledge about large container ship operations. It will make this thread much more interesting if you could share your experience in future comments.

Can you tell us if the ship you were on was a Maersk vessel? Their Triple Es are really impressive.

I'm fascinated by the Wärtsilä engines that are powering much of the more recent construction in the trade. The 18V50DF is just crazy large. Its power output at 60hz is 17,550 kW.
 
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Can you tell us if the ship you were on was a Maersk vessel?

Actually it was one of CMA's President class.

Their Triple Es are really impressive.

That's all a matter of perspective. From THIS perspective, you can keep them...... :)

Emily Gangway.jpg

I'm fascinated by the Wärtsilä engines that are powering much of the more recent construction in the trade. The 18V50DF is just crazy large. Its power output at 60hz is 17,550 kW.

CMA uses the MAN B&W with about 64,000kW at 110 RPM

CMA Diesel Engine.jpg

Richard
 
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I'm going to assume that someone on that ship was awake and noticed the impact.
It wouldn't be the first time a sleeping (or not alert/paying attention)mate on watch was a single point of failure.

Still doesn't explain the DDG's role, however. They would not have had a single point of failure.
 
That engine is monstrous. What a great photo.
 
Not enough info to really know what happened, but I can say with 100% certainty that what you suggested is not what happened.

It'll probably be a while until we hear the "official" story and even then, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody but the folks on duty that night will ever really know. But we all know that's how it works.

Dad's ship was the original Iwo Jima, LPH-2. It's listed as 11,000 tons light and 18,000 tons heavy. That thing was built like a brick s***house (I've been on it.) I'm quite certain if a commercial cargo ship hit it broadside, it would have won.

Interesting coincidence. My dad served aboard LPH-12. USS Inchon. I never realized you and your dad had a connection to the LPHs.

LPH-2 and LPH-10* were the only two that weren't sunk as targets.

Inchon is at the bottom of the Atlantic. She suffered a nasty fire (fuel oil in the bilges in port, fatal for one enlisted guy who saved his buddy before succumbing to smoke, eight got out of the nine in the space). Damage was so severe the Navy chose to decommission her rather than repair her. She had been converted from an LPH to an MCS Support ship, which was always the majority of her jobs anyway.

LPH-2 saw a lot more action as a Marine helo support ship for battles in VN than Inchon did. Inchon was always stuck doing the minesweeping mission for the most part. And acting as the Admiral's flagship in Haiphong Harbor during the signing of the armistice.**

(* For those reading along since I'm sure Sac is aware... the LPH Iwo Jima class wasn't numbered sequentially and the numbering scheme is ... odd.)

(** Or whatever you call that crappy piece of paper we signed...)

Inchon was also the first Naval vessel to deploy Harriers.

LPH-2 was broken up at Ingalls a while back.

LPH-10 Tripoli was used as a launch platform for some very interesting missile tests. We saw her moored in Hawaii when we were there last, which was quite a while ago. She was leased to the Army for that purpose when she was decommissioned in the 90s. Currently she's listed as being in the reserve fleet in mothballs down south. The last one afloat.

Funny thing was, we were just doing a standard tourist helicopter flight and we turn toward that part of the harbor and my eyeballs about bugged out of my head. Holy hell, that's an Iwo Jima class! I knew it wasn't still a commissioned ship at the time because the painted numbers had all been removed and she was obviously decommissioned and had some small support boats tied alongside with generators and what-not for pumps, so I knew she wasn't active, but neat to see, after all of those photos of dad's around the house growing up. Recognized the type immediately.

Pretty impressive service records for some old ships who's keels were laid in the late 60s. But they're all gone now.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/11/10111227.jpg

This photo has made its way around the internet over the last few years in digital format. I have one of the originals hanging on the wall here. Sea Sparrow launch circa 1970 or so. Dad helped rig the trigger system that clicked the Nikon that took the photo. :)

I also think that photo has a later than '70 date written on the back, but I'd have to look.

When I went digging a while back on Inchon history, the story was that someone found that missile launch photo that's been scanned onto the Internet buried in the back of a filing cabinet aboard the ship in the 80s and took it home with them. Dad's copy came home with him on a C-130 out of Italy in his sea bag AFAIK.

I'm probably not supposed to have the damned thing but whatever. It's hanging in the ham shack with a photo of him playing DJ aboard ship at the ships radio room, and his original nuclear weapons training certificate. Haha.

Makes for a nice little addition to the shack when folks bother to visit and look at the wall. Which is pretty much, never.

The ship photo posted above looks like a bulk carrier. Here's a photo of one of the Maersk Triple E container ships. They are huge and can carry about 18,000 TEUs, so they are larger than the accident ship.

Those Triple-E ships are just ungodly big in person. And that's probably an understatement.

Still have his books. Dated 72-75, but he was aboard before that. I suspect he never got the previous book or it was damaged somewhere along the way. I was born in '72 ad he was already aboard because he was called and told to get ashore as the ship had just tied up the night before and no one had been released yet, and since I was more than two months early to the party he thought his buddies were playing a practical joke. Meanwhile I was being born and was stuffed into an incubator at Travis AFB or I'd probably be dead.

Which probably explains the odd lifelong fascination with airplanes instead of boats. ;)

8681333e3be2b2b7742c54fb1c81b368.jpg


5e9f0c03d21f3d25bbb2be3a1178840d.jpg
 
P.P.S. Yes, that's an original Bloom County book next to dad's books. And an apt title for my bookshelf. Ha.

"A wish for wings that work"...
 
Thanks for the interesting contribution to the thread. I've read the stories about the 1989 CIWS incident and the deadly steam release on the Iwo Jima that occurred In 1990, quite a coincidence that two forum members have a connection to her.

The ship was in commission for over thirty years, she must have steamed well over a million miles during that time.
 
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It'll probably be a while until we hear the "official" story and even then, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody but the folks on duty that night will ever really know. But we all know that's how it works.



Interesting coincidence. My dad served aboard LPH-12. USS Inchon. I never realized you and your dad had a connection to the LPHs.

Check out this link:

http://www.ussiwojimaclassassociation.org/lph2/history/

If you scroll down to 1972, the Iwo Jima changed home ports from San Diego to Norfolk. They happened to take several families aboard the ship, including the car and household goods in containers on the deck. The trip took three weeks. I was aboard LPH-2 for that trip as a kid. I've also been on a couple goodwill cruises that lasted a few hours since.
 
Thanks for the interesting contribution to the thread. I've read the stories about the 1989 CIWS incident and the deadly steam release on the Iwo Jima that occurred In 1990, quite a coincidence that two forum members have a connection to her.

The ship was in commission for over thirty years, she must have steamed well over a million miles during that time.

Yep. Dad used to see Inchon mentioned in press releases that she was off to go do something for a different President in a different ocean and respond, "Same ****, different decade..."

Check out this link:

http://www.ussiwojimaclassassociation.org/lph2/history/

If you scroll down to 1972, the Iwo Jima changed home ports from San Diego to Norfolk. They happened to take several families aboard the ship, including the car and household goods in containers on the deck. The trip took three weeks. I was aboard LPH-2 for that trip as a kid. I've also been on a couple goodwill cruises that lasted a few hours since.

I saw photos of the families embarked in the '72 book. Mom was stuck in SD, mostly at the Travis hospital with me, I was in and out of it for a while.

But pre-school was in Norfolk for me. Yup.

I remember it vaguely including John Denver on the stereo (which came from Japan and I still have some of the components of it, including three sets of Kenwood speakers that a) sound better than anything you can buy at a reasonable price today and b) amazingly haven't needed re-foaming yet...) which ended up being another odd aviation tie-in.

Dad was out and back to CO before I hit grade school. Guess that would have been '76 or '77. Mom fought with the school to take me a month early in '77 so instead of being a fall baby who was always a little older than classmates, I was the youngest in all my school classes.
 
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Interesting that the Iwo Jima and others of her class are all part of that class association, and Inchon has her own... probably a story behind that... haha.

Some old retired coot made another old retired coot mad, somewhere. LOL.

http://www.ussinchon.com
 
Anyway, sorry about the trip down memory lane, back to the Fitz and the poor souls who lost their lives... RIP sailors.
 
Presumably the whole thing is a lot more complicated than this:


View attachment 54387

Which is why the red nav light is on the port side. When you see red, you're the vessel that has to give way. When you see green, you're the stand on vessel. Red light stop, green light go.

Although on my local lake good luck finding a redneck who understands navigation rules.
 
I saw photos of the families embarked in the '72 book. Mom was stuck in SD, mostly at the Travis hospital with me, I was in and out of it for a while.

Are you talking about the families embarked on LPH-2? If so, I'd love to see those! There is a better than even chance I'm (we) were in them!

By the way, LPH-10 was also moored at Mare Island (Vallejo) for several years. I understand the City of Vallejo owned it for a period when they took over the base, and there was some effort to restore it by some private organization, before it was sent back east.

They all look exactly alike.
 
Are you talking about the families embarked on LPH-2? If so, I'd love to see those! There is a better than even chance I'm (we) were in them!

By the way, LPH-10 was also moored at Mare Island (Vallejo) for several years. I understand the City of Vallejo owned it for a period when they took over the base, and there was some effort to restore it by some private organization, before it was sent back east.

They all look exactly alike.

I'll check. I suspect if they're in the LPH-12 cruise book they're just photos from LPH-12 but maybe some combined things. All I really remember is reading about the "family cruise".
 
Ok sorry can't help but share this, a conspiracy theory, or maybe, what they want you to think is a conspiracy theory...

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog...rald_story_we_are_getting_from_the_media.html

Wouldn't say it's a conspiracy really... there's all sorts of things our warmongers don't tell us. For better or for worse.

If we called all their secrets a conspiracy we'd have to do something about it. Ha. Right. Good luck with that.

The Kim syndicate wants a reaction and to tease the people who put three carrier battle groups on their doorstep. Big game of chicken.

Sending that kid home to Ohio beaten so badly he couldn't speak, was a message for sure. And a test. Call it botulism and see if our politicians have the guts to say that was only part of the medical story in public. They beat that kid to severe brain damage and than shipped him home.

Whether this ship thing is another test or just an accident, the folks who know aren't going to say.

I'm sure of one thing, various sensor assets know exactly what happened and already showed their data to those who need to know, and they sure didn't need AIS to see a merchant vessel.

They know if it was deliberate. Probably know who's responsible if it was, too.

What was dad's phrase again? Oh yeah. Same ****, different decade.
 
What a load of hooey!! Seriously, people watch too many Hollywood movies.

This is comical:


If there is any substance to this – that the ACX Crystal disabled protective systems and rammed the Fitzgerald at high speed aimed at critical facilities (evident from the damage)..

High speed? Recalling the ubiquitous F=mv, the container ship needed little momentum to cause the damage.

But conspiracy theories sell!
 
Which is why the red nav light is on the port side. When you see red, you're the vessel that has to give way. When you see green, you're the stand on vessel. Red light stop, green light go.

One of the exceptions to the "Give way to the vessel to Starboard" rule is the requirement to defer to vessels "constrained in their ability to maneuver".

In Merchant usage this usually means people like dredgers, fishing or survey vessels with gear out, deep-draft vessels in dredged channels, etc. etc. (As well, of course, as ships with engine or steering problems.)

Military vessels, however, sometimes like to apply it by claiming "I can't alter course to avoid you because I am proceeding to military orders." When doing a Reserve stint I once had the Regular Navy CO of a 1,000T Hydrographic vessel 'counsel' me for going around a 15,000T RoRo that had right of way, when I could have just claimed 'constrained' and saved the bridge team the hassle of a course alteration and return to course, plus the effort of logging it.

Richard
 
This is comical:

High speed? Recalling the ubiquitous F=mv, the container ship needed little momentum to cause the damage.

But conspiracy theories sell!

I don't know who wrote that, but someone should point out to him that a ship like the ACX Crystal doesn't HAVE "high speed". I'm not familiar with the ship itself, but such a vessel is probably no more than 16 or 17 knots full speed.

Richard
 
In Merchant usage this usually means people like dredgers, fishing or survey vessels with gear out, deep-draft vessels in dredged channels, etc. etc. (As well, of course, as ships with engine or steering problems.)

Of course, our lake is part of the Tennessee river, and barge traffic in channel gets the RoW. Also law of gross tonnage applies here as well, as a big vessel will run right over my piddly little 21' bowrider no matter who has the RoW.
 
One of the exceptions to the "Give way to the vessel to Starboard" rule is the requirement to defer to vessels "constrained in their ability to maneuver".

In Merchant usage this usually means people like dredgers, fishing or survey vessels with gear out, deep-draft vessels in dredged channels, etc. etc. (As well, of course, as ships with engine or steering problems.)
You are mixing terms.

There are vessels constrained by their draft and vessels Restricted in their ability to maneuver.

Then there is Not under command which would fit a vessel with steering casualty.

All have their own nuances under the rules.
 
Oddly enough, this isn't the first Arleigh Burke class destroyer that got nailed by a merchant vessel. The USS Porter ended up in the path of a Japanese tanker in the straits of Hormuz in 2012. This was after an argument on the bridge between the skipper and the officer of the deck. Skipper 'won' the left/right argument, the ship lost. The impact mark was in the same spot as on the Fitzgerald, though not nearly as deep.
So based on past performance, I wouldn't take it as a given that the DDG was on a steady course when it got hit.
 
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Oddly enough, this isn't the first Arleigh Burke class destroyer that got nailed by a merchant vessel. The USS Porter ended up in the path of a Japanese tanker in the straits of Hormuz in 2012. This was after an argument on the bridge between the skipper and the watch officer. Skipper 'won' the left/right argument, the ship lost. The impact mark was in the same spot as on the Fitzgerald, though not nearly as deep.
So based on past performance, I wouldn't take it as a given that the DDG was on a steady course when it got hit.

Here's the audio from the bridge of the Porter:


http://gcaptain.com/intense-bridge-conversation-porter/
 
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