Service Ceiling Test

tsts4

tsts4

Pattern Altitude
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Nov 10, 2008
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Tampa, FL
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Auburntsts
So, one thing I've never done is a test on the Service Ceiling on my RV-10. No real practical reason to do it. I'm just curious so it would just be for grins and giggles (yes I know I'll need O2). My question is from an ATC perspective, how to go about filing and/or asking ATC for a clearance to say FL 200 since theoretically the test would take me into Class A airspace and therefore IFR. I'm based under a Class B shelf so initially I'd be a talking to Approach but I would expect that at some point I'd have to be handed off to Center (not sure the vertical airspace structure in that regard). I don't really want to go anywhere particular for the test--I envision just doing racetracks over our practice area which is out of the way of airways and direct city routings and wouldn't interfere with any flight level traffic, as far as I can tell. Thoughts?
 
are you instrument rated? some of your comments make me think you aren't. but that'd be step 1, I'd think.
 
tsts4 said:
...... since theoretically the test would take me into Class A airspace and therefore IFR.......
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I don't understand the usage of the word "theoretically" here. FL200 is class-A airspace, and you to be on an IFR flight plan to occupy class-A. Ask for a block and have fun. If you're not on an IFR flight plan, you won't get a clearance to FL180 or higher.

There's some weird spots where class-A doesn't exist. I think Hawaii is one of those.
 
Rgbeard said:
I don't understand the usage of the word "theoretically" here. FL200 is class-A airspace, and you to be on an IFR flight plan to occupy class-A. Ask for a block and have fun. If you're not on an IFR flight plan, you won't get a clearance to FL180 or higher.

There's some weird spots where class-A doesn't exist. I think Hawaii is one of those.
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Sorry, I was obtuse. I'm talking about my plane's performance. The RV-10's service ceiling is listed by Van's as 20,000. Not sure if I can get it up there or not, hence the "theoretically" in my OP.
 
eman1200 said:
are you instrument rated? some of your comments make me think you aren't. but that'd be step 1, I'd think.
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Yes I am. But I've never requested anything like I want to see what my service ceiling is, so I'm not quite sure how to approach it. I could, of course, just fly IFR someplace and file for FL200, but I'd rather stay close to home and treat it like a test flight, which in reality it would be, albeit a relatively innocuous one other than getting a clearance.
 
Rgbeard said:
So fly it and find out? What's difficult here?
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Sigh. It's not difficult, although this thread is making it out to be. I was looking for gouge on how to approach ATC and request something I've never done before and is outside of my experience. There might be an easy way and a hard way, so figured I ask.
 
Are you not Instrument Rated?

Edit: I see you answered that.

Did you see my response about asking for a block from 180 to 240? That seems the easiest to me.

Better choice? Identify a common intersection on the way to XYZ and ask for a hold at the intersection after getting your block approved?

Then after you finish your test, carry on to XYZ or ask for a diversion back to the home airport.

None of this is really difficult, IMO.
 
tsts4 said:
So, one thing I've never done is a test on the Service Ceiling on my RV-10. No real practical reason to do it. I'm just curious so it would just be for grins and giggles (yes I know I'll need O2). My question is from an ATC perspective, how to go about filing and/or asking ATC for a clearance to say FL 200 since theoretically the test would take me into Class A airspace and therefore IFR. I'm based under a Class B shelf so initially I'd be a talking to Approach but I would expect that at some point I'd have to be handed off to Center (not sure the vertical airspace structure in that regard). I don't really want to go anywhere particular for the test--I envision just doing racetracks over our practice area which is out of the way of airways and direct city routings and wouldn't interfere with any flight level traffic, as far as I can tell. Thoughts?
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I assume you're IFR rated. Are you still in Tampa? Just looking at Airways and drawing lines between airports may not tell the story of where traffic is likely to be and how excited the Center is going to be about it.
 
luvflyin said:
I assume you're IFR rated. Are you still in Tampa? Just looking at Airways and drawing lines between airports may not tell the story of where traffic is likely to be and how excited the Center is going to be about it.
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Yes, and I'm rated, and hence my question--I don't know what I don't know. This is all about setting up my test flight card and having everything from comms to routing, to objectives and tasks planned out in advance. Yes I'm anal about my approach to this since it is an E-AB aircraft.
 
As an aside, I fly an airplane that also has the service ceiling at FL200.

Getting up to 17:ish is pretty easy. Getting from 17-18 you notice takes more effort. From 18-20 is a 300 fpm fun time. I understand why they stopped at FL200.
 
tsts4 said:
Yes, and I'm rated, and hence my question--I don't know what I don't know. This is all about setting up my test flight card and having everything from comms to routing, to objectives and tasks planned out in advance.
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Find the phone number of the Center whose sky this is going to be in. Call them and ask.
 
Unless your airplane is turbocharged, rate of climb is linear with altitude; if it is turbocharged, it will be linear above the critical altitude. You could measure your ROC at, say, 5k, 10k, and 15k, and make a pretty accurate projection as to your service ceiling (but use a stopwatch to measure climb rate, not the VSI).
 
It also matters (a lot) how heavily loaded you are. If it's just you and minimum gas, that's one number. Taking off at MGTOW, it will be a lower ceiling. Of course, density altitude matters too. If I recall correctly there is a minimum remaining ROC associated with the number used for service ceiling.
 
Here's what I did once:

I filed to a fix that was a bearing and distance from a VORTAC. That in itself drew all the questions from FSS and Center and they quickly figured out what I was doing.
 
Well, never mind. I'm BasicMed which has an 18000MSL max altitude restriction so this flight is a no-go from the start. Thanks anyway for the responses.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
It also matters (a lot) how heavily loaded you are. If it's just you and minimum gas, that's one number. Taking off at MGTOW, it will be a lower ceiling. Of course, density altitude matters too. If I recall correctly there is a minimum remaining ROC associated with the number used for service ceiling.
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For prop GA airplanes it's 100 ft/min at gross weight. The weight correction is the gotcha, simply flying to 100 ft/min doesn't give you the answer until you correct it for the weight difference.

OP - if you're planning on racetracks, make the legs as long and the turns as shallow as you can since the turns will have a more pronounced effect on the climb (or lack of) the higher you get, and you'll have to reacquire your test conditions rolling out of ever turn.

I've had good results using excess power test results to develop climb schedules and predict service ceiling, it's then simpler to validate the predictions than use a climb test to get ceilings (combat, service, absolute, etc.)

Nauga,
and Ed Rutowski
 
tsts4 said:
Well, never mind. I'm BasicMed which has an 18000MSL max altitude restriction so this flight is a no-go from the start. Thanks anyway for the responses.
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nauga said:
I've had good results using excess power test results to develop climb schedules and predict service ceiling, it's then simpler to validate the predictions than use a climb test to get ceilings (combat, service, absolute, etc.)
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Can I be of assistance? :D

Nauga,
the helping ham
 
Take it to 17999 just for kicks.
 
Salty said:
Take it to 17999 just for kicks.
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I just might. That would solve my ATC and medical issues plus on a hot day I'd probably get at least an approximation of the ceiling at 17500 to 17999.
 
If you need some ballast stop by and pick me up. ;)
 
tsts4 said:
Well, never mind. I'm BasicMed which has an 18000MSL max altitude restriction so this flight is a no-go from the start. Thanks anyway for the responses.
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If @Salty has a Class 3, he can be more than ballast. Do it!
 
I don’t have much glider time, but I do recall gliders being allowed above FL180 on occasion.
 
My Turbo Arrow had a listed service ceiling of 20,000 feet. I got it up to 17.5 for sh**s and giggles, but it REALLY didn't like being there (bad mag arcing) so I didn't bother to try a clearance to go higher.
 
Just find a friend/POA administrator willing to ride shotgun/PIC (as @nauga hinted above), file a fairly long direct route somewhere (I live in a place where every route is long and direct, so that’s a point in my favor), and request a block of 12,000 - FL280 (so you can get back down to non-oxygen altitudes without asking). Make sure you have enough oxygen (including masks, not cannulas) to last for the test since climbing to your actual service ceiling will probably be more of an exercise in patience than anything else and you will have an oxygen-hogging POA administrator helping.

I’d like to do this in my RV-14, too. I think that Van’s claims FL240 at gross and I think that’s tremendously silly.
 
iamtheari said:
Just find a friend/POA administrator willing to ride shotgun/PIC (as @nauga hinted above)...
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Sometimes I'm a little ambiguous, I admit. I was hinting at getting help understanding the different kinds of testing you can do to predict your performance without having to do an endless climb right from the start. Performance flight testing is tedious and (hopefully) boring, I'll let someone else be the self-propelled ballast this time.

Nauga,
and other weighty matters
 
texasclouds said:
You mean besides outside the ADIZ over the ocean? I’d check with Red Bull first.
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Van’s lists the estimated ceiling at gross and at “solo weight” but I don’t think they have any data for how the plane flies at empty weight.
 
I've been up to 15,500' and have no desire to get that high again. The headache wasn't worth it.
Haven't been over 11,500 in the past 15 years.
 
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