Selling Attitude

[Grum.Man]

To piggy back off all the market analyst post of recent. What would you do if you had your plane for sale and nobody is buying it? With the faucet on the lucrative inflated plane market of the last 3 years closing off I am seeing the same planes posted over and over again for the same or slightly less money. I've seen the same RV3 on e-bay probably 5 times or more. Usually as a buy it now instead of an auction. This last time it was listed as an auction and was only bid up to 24k. I think he started in the high 40ks for it.

There are some biplanes on BS that have been listed Multiple times with the price only dropping a few hundred bucks each time. Admittedly I made an offer on one that the seller didn't take and commented that he had rejected offers only a couple thousand less than he had it listed for.

So would you as a seller:
a: Finally concede that your plane isn't worth your asking price and sell it for less?
b: Say screw the market I'll let it rot away before I take a dime less (whilst paying more than the difference in hangar rent until your kids auction it off)
c: Do something to it in an effort to increase its value
d: Part it out

 

[Jeff767]

If a plane is not selling its over priced.

 

[Shepherd]

OMG. It was parked outside and got struck by clear air lightning!

 

[douglas393]

I think it depends on what your intentions are in selling. The aircraft market has its ups and downs. If you can wait on the sale then sticking to what you think it is worth may make sense. If you cannot wait and it is not selling then you need to figure out why. Are you overpriced, does the plane you are selling not have a lot of buyer interest, are there other planes that are similar that are better priced, is your marketing strategy turning off prospective buyers, etc??? I only sold one plane, and it was to a broker-buyer. I would not do it again. I sold it for a lot less than I could have made if I sold it on my own, or through a commissioned broker. At the time however selling it to the broker-buyer made sense to me as I had too much going on to do it myself. It was a classic "it seemed like a good idea at the time." Now not so much.

 

[Eric Brunelle]

Like anything, it’s only worth what someone will pay. I think many of the abandoned planes we see are the result of sellers being too stubborn to understand this. Put it on the market, give it some time to gauge interest, sell it for what you can get and move on.

 

[OkieAviator]

e: I would revise my listing, reevaluate the platform I have the listing on, look for comp sales and adjust price accordingly. If it's a fairly unique item (RV3) determine if I'm fine just holding out for a possible long listing.

 

[Salty]

 

[Zeldman]

What would you do if you had your plane for sale and nobody is buying it?

Land it gear up and collect the insurance.??

(No no, of course not...)

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Land it gear up and collect the insurance.??

(No no, of course not...)

I know a guy who might have done that. He had his Mooney for sale two years ago. I was interested in it but timing didn’t work out and the Cherokee I ended up buying became the better deal. The plane was on the market for another couple of months after that and then disappeared. When I was looking for something faster earlier this year, I looked up who now owns the Mooney I was interested in back then and found out it had a gear up landing a few months after me and the seller didn’t close on a sale. Could have been an honest accident but timing sure was sus.

 

[Racerx]

OMG. It was parked outside and got struck by clear air lightning!

We all know what it's called when a restaurant "accidentally" catches fire. What would it be for airplanes?

 

[EdFred]

Land it gear up and collect the insurance.??

(No no, of course not...)

Only if it's at OSH

 

[TCABM]

To piggy back off all the market analyst post of recent. What would you do if you had your plane for sale and nobody is buying it?…

There’s lot of things to consider…
The target market for an RV-3 is much different than the target market for, say, a PT-19. Both are niche segments in a niche market. Where do the buyers in those segments go to find the planes they want to buy?

For the planes in the target segment, which ones are moving and why are they moving? What’s the average time on market in the correct market place for the planes that are moving?

If I was selling an RV-3, I’d be all over the VAF classifieds as well as other RV-specific forums. I was talking yesterday with a friend that built a plain jane VFR-only RV-6 with 160hp motor and fixed pitch prop. It’s a good, reliable plane and when he’s ready to sell, I’ll be interested…at the right price. I figure the engine will be run out at that point and I’d want to put an IO-360 and constant speed prop on it and update the panel.

That’s a lot of time and money, so I would likely value his particular plane in the mid-30s, while pristine examples of a -6 will command close to six figures or more today.

 

[hindsight2020]

I was talking yesterday with a friend that built a plain jane VFR-only RV-6 with 160hp motor and fixed pitch prop. It’s a good, reliable plane and when he’s ready to sell, I’ll be interested…at the right price.

320 VFR -6s are (relatively) dime a dozen, which is why I'm in no hurry, but like you, it's all about the right price. Things are still about +20K hot for me. I'd give them asking if they were asking that for a 360 equipped. Of course, what -360 seller ones want is cray cray, which is fine too. In fairness to the latter, I'm not interested in incurring engine swap costs, so I'll just wait for 180hp RVs to come down.

Frankly, the topic bores me anymore. Everybody gets defensive and tries to shout you down about "prices never coming down!" and "good luck never owning an airplane!", but that's just swan songs and emotional responses. I've witnessed similar attitudes about housing and vehicles, especially in online regional/community pages. In my experience buyer's markets exist and cycle through, most of my toys have been acquired through those troughs, prices do fluctuate, at times dramatically, labor markets do tank. The same will be true for this post covid inflationary period, once you account for the fact that the post 2008 bottoms took more than half a decade.

I think my dumb#ss neighbor is on his 4th attempt at listing/de-listing his house in 18 months. Rooting for ya buddy! *beer can opening fizzle* I do feel bad for the sucker realtors who expended all that energy on open houses in this miserable C TX sweltering heat, to be told what I could have told him about his asking and this neighborhood he's lived in twice as long as me, for free.

 

[Initial Fix]

I wonder how many of the “high” selling prices are what they paid during the covid crazy market or are trying to capitalize on now. Add in today’s higher interest rates and it doesn’t take an MBA to see a market correction in the making.

 

[Daleandee]

If a plane is not selling its over priced.

Yep, you can get "what the market will bear." Sometimes it's in your favor and, at least for me, most times it seems not ...

 

[unsafervguy]

There’s lot of things to consider…
The target market for an RV-3 is much different than the target market for, say, a PT-19. Both are niche segments in a niche market. Where do the buyers in those segments go to find the planes they want to buy?

For the planes in the target segment, which ones are moving and why are they moving? What’s the average time on market in the correct market place for the planes that are moving?

If I was selling an RV-3, I’d be all over the VAF classifieds as well as other RV-specific forums. I was talking yesterday with a friend that built a plain jane VFR-only RV-6 with 160hp motor and fixed pitch prop. It’s a good, reliable plane and when he’s ready to sell, I’ll be interested…at the right price. I figure the engine will be run out at that point and I’d want to put an IO-360 and constant speed prop on it and update the panel.

That’s a lot of time and money, so I would likely value his particular plane in the mid-30s, while pristine examples of a -6 will command close to six figures or more today.

mid thirties? not a chance. since the core value of a lycoming is about 18k now, any running rv is going to be be north of that. there is a complete kit for sale right now for 28k, and thats a good deal.

 

[wsquare]

There are always large scale market forces at work, operating from a big picture perspective, that have impact on the aircraft marketplace. Supply. Demand. Loan interest rates. General perceptions of the local, national and global economy, both present and looking forward. Insurance market and insurability. Etc. Etc. These large market forces tend to have highly damped impacts - ie, slow and trending. Then, there are the more granular factors that impact the marketplace. These trend toward smaller scale, more local, and eventually trickle down to the single aircraft level. Examples include aircraft model and popularity, avionics packages, engine mods, fuel considerations, interior condition, paint rating, parts and service considerations, Etc. Etc.

When considering the condition of the aircraft marketplace, it is helpful to consider the "scale" of the factors being evaluated, and convey this information as part of the discussion. Otherwise, it has the potential to be an apples vs oranges circular discussion. Everyone can point to that one aircraft, perhaps RV-7, that defied the odds and sold for a bucket full of cash, or perhaps met its match and got hammered in the market, but this type of singular example doesn't provide meaningful information from the perspective of the larger scale market forces. Larger scale market forces require larger numbers of data points to infer trends, ie, more data to allow quantitive analysis.

One new factor, that has the potential to impact a fairly significant sector of the market that includes popular GA aircraft, is the proposed MOSAIC regulations. Considering the impact of these regs from the macro-scale, and likely substantial impact on the supply and demand of aircraft that meet the MOSAIC specs, there will be an increasing trend in price for these aircraft. Being able to fly a Cessna 172 (or you name the qualified aircraft) with a driver license medical will be quite appealing to a lot of people. This increase in price may come at the detriment of other, more complex aircraft that don't meet the MOSAIC criteria, ie, folks selling their complex aircraft, to move into a MOSAIC qualified aircraft. The only question is when? After attending OSH for the duration, and visiting with many, many folks on general aviation topics, and gently weaving MOSAIC into the conversations, my casual observation is that about 10% were even aware that there is such a thing as MOSAIC. Upon further discussion, and people learning more about the concept, the general response was, "I have to learn more about that." Maybe a year, maybe two years. Don't know. But, I'm definitely not calling the peak on MOSAIC qualified aircraft, assuming other macro-economic forces don't disrupt the market (ie, fuel prices triple, etc etc). Just my two cents worth...

 

[Grum.Man]

mid thirties? not a chance. since the core value of a lycoming is about 18k now, any running rv is going to be be north of that. there is a complete kit for sale right now for 28k, and thats a good deal.

Where did you see that? Lycoming offers $6,500 credit when you trade your engine. Corona engines right now has their core values at 10,500. This also assumes that all the components can be overhauled. Any components that can’t they deduct from the core. So unless you have an engine that is torn down for inspection it’s not worth core value. Besides, why would someone pay “core value” for a used engine just to exchange for an overhauled one? Just pay the $6,500 and save the shipping and potential bad parts.

 

[TCABM]

mid thirties? not a chance. since the core value of a lycoming is about 18k now, any running rv is going to be be north of that. there is a complete kit for sale right now for 28k, and thats a good deal.

Considering the plane isn’t even up for sale right now, this is kind of a moot discussion, but the value I place an that particular aircraft knowing it’s condition and what I would do to it if I bought it is in the mid-thirties.

The market may pay mote, but I don’t have to buy and he doesn’t have to sell.

 

[Klaus M]

Where did you see that? Lycoming offers $6,500 credit when you trade your engine. Corona engines right now has their core values at 10,500. This also assumes that all the components can be overhauled. Any components that can’t they deduct from the core. So unless you have an engine that is torn down for inspection it’s not worth core value. Besides, why would someone pay “core value” for a used engine just to exchange for an overhauled one? Just pay the $6,500 and save the shipping and potential bad parts.

Certified engine's core value does set the low price. If you have a prop strike and damage the crankshaft you'll find it very difficult to even buy a salvage yard engine. Many times the insurance company will total an aircraft with a bent crank. Engine prices have gone way up over the past couple years.

Homebuilts do not need certified engines so it maybe possible to find one without a dataplate for much less.

HENPL-RT8989 Lycoming Overhauled O-320-A2A Engine for PIPER PA-25

Lycoming HENPL-RT8989 Overhauled O-320-A2A Engine for PIPER PA-25

www.airpowerinc.com

 

[texasclouds]

Wife said sell it, sorry hun these buyers are all cheapos!

 

[Grum.Man]

Certified engine's core value does set the low price. If you have a prop strike and damage the crankshaft you'll find it very difficult to even buy a salvage yard engine. Many times the insurance company will total an aircraft with a bent crank. Engine prices have gone way up over the past couple years.

Homebuilts do not need certified engines so it maybe possible to find one without a dataplate for much less.

HENPL-RT8989 Lycoming Overhauled O-320-A2A Engine for PIPER PA-25

Lycoming HENPL-RT8989 Overhauled O-320-A2A Engine for PIPER PA-25

www.airpowerinc.com

Just because one company wants big money for a core doesn’t make the fleet of old engines worth more. I’m experimental only guy so it’s a different world in my view.

 

[Pinecone]

I saw this last year when I was looking for a plane.

I found a nice one but with a questionable engine. Made an offer based on needing a reman engine, and it was rejected. A year later it was still for sale for a slightly lower price, but not enough to deal with replacing engine.

 

[Grum.Man]

I looked at another airplane Saturday. Guy bought it a year ago for 40k, didn't really fly it, illegally installed a new com radio and an old King transponder which wasn't even certified in the airplane. The condition inspection has expired now, no history of any compression test, and now wants 48k. I offered 44 and was told the lowest he will go is 46. Told him if he got it airworthy I’d go for a test flight and take it given no other test flight issues. His response was he didn’t have time for all that go find something else.

 

[Salty]

illegally installed a new com radio and an old King transponder which wasn't even certified in the airplane

What does this mean?

 

[OkieAviator]

Seems pretty clear but if someone who isn’t an A&P installs a radio and a transponder in an airplane they don’t hold a repairman’s certificate for without the appropriate log book entry and A&P approval it is not legal. Further more an airplane equipped with a transponder is required to have it certified every 24 calendar months.

If you're talking specifically about an EAB category of airplane that's not entirely accurate. The benefit of a repairman's cert is so the builder of record can do the annual condition inspection. Otherwise your traditional A&P IA has to sign off.

The transponder certification still applies but that's only if you're flying into the appropriate airspace. If you're flying IFR then in addition you need the Pitot/Static and a traditional TSO'd navigator, ie Garmin GTN 650.

However if you own an EAB aircraft you can put whatever radios you want in it and I've seen some creative solutions out there. This doesn't restrict them from legally flying it or using the devices.

As for logbooks, that's an entirely different debate there. I'm well organized and have the traditional log book set up... however I've seen some expieremental with questionalble history tracked...

 

[Ed Haywood]

People tend to make emotional decisions about things that should be cold calculations. So my advice is avoid that.

 

[Grum.Man]

What does this mean?

I deleted my initial reply cause I had my mind in standard category and not experimental. Regardless it should have had a log book entry for both and technically a weight and balance change since equipment was added. And what’s the point of adding a mode S transponder if you aren’t going to get it certified for use or at least do ADSB. At least here on the east coast there is really no point in having a transponder and no ADSB especially in an aerobatic airplane.

 

[Sinistar]

So would you as a seller:
a: Finally concede that your plane isn't worth your asking price and sell it for less?
b: Say screw the market I'll let it rot away before I take a dime less (whilst paying more than the difference in hangar rent until your kids auction it off)
c: Do something to it in an effort to increase its value
d: Part it out

A: recoup the most you can, lick your wounds, swallow pride and be happy you have 90% of what spent back in your pocket. But I would apply that to just about anything. I know guys who have nice Harelys rotting away because they are to proud to take the loss now. Then again I loathe hoarding.

If the plane in your scenario is already decrepit or junk then part it out or auction it off.

Whether you sell it in nice condition or sell it as parts - you'll be freeing up a hangar and maybe getting another person into aviation!

Not sure why you would try and increase its value. A new engine will get you the most return on your investment - but you'll spend $30K, $40K, or more only to get haggled and throw away at least $5k of that. And that is if the new engine works with no follow up issues.

 

[murphey]

It has an overhauled engine, new avionics, new interior but guess what? When I get around to selling it, I figure after 25 yrs of owning the cherokee, if I get the original price from when I bought it in 2000 + a tiny bit more (perhaps 10-15%), I'll be happy. Cost of 25 yrs of hangar rent & insurance is just the price of owning it.

 

[Albany Tom]

I took the title "selling attitude" too literally. I know a lot of people with attitude, and it would be great if they could sell some of it and calm down a bit, but I don't think it's a sellers market. No offense to OP, no clue.

But I do agree that if the plane doesn't sell quickly for X, then X is too big. Same as houses, cars, food. So you could either change the entire market, or make X smaller. As others have said, it's just math.

 

[WDD]

There are those who would rather loose all of their investment and let the plane rot vs taking a lower price. Stubbornness, unwarranted hope of higher prices just around the corner, high reluctance of letting go.

$250,000 USD​

PRICE REDUCTION, MOTIVATED SELLER. This award winning Cardinal won best of show at CFO Winter Haven around 2017. Upgraded IO-390 engine with 210 HP! It is currently in the process of a fresh annual. The panel has dual GTN750's with remote audio panel, transponder and stormscope. Cosmetics are outstanding with new paint using Scheme Designers design in 2016 and new premium leather in 2015 including windows, interior plastics and carpet.​

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[Will Kumley]

LOL, Pretty sure I ran into this guy more than once while looking for a plane to buy.

An hour away from our house: A TriPacer owner that owned the plane for roughly 30 years did a full interview of my wife and I before he showed us the plane. Drove us to the plane from his house, wouldn't uncover it completely for us to look it over but we could see tears and other damage to the fabric, it was full of junk as he had been using it for storage, and he wasn't willing to let me start the engine. Offered to let us rent a CD with "everything you need to know about TriPacers" for $50 so I could look it over before we came back for a test flight but wanted $100 per hour to let me go up with him in the plane.

A 6-hour drive away: A Zenith 601 owner that knew we were driving in to look at his plane was slightly better in the interview department but still asked a lot of questions to see if we were worthy of purchasing his plane. Said I could pull panels to look things over but wasn't willing to let me open the cowl and look at the Jabiru engine in the plane. He at least tried to start the plane so we could taxi it around as it was out of its conditional inspection but the engine wouldn't start- likely a battery issue but he admitted that the engine struggled to start sometimes even with a brand new battery. Also told me of other engine woes. Wanted me to drive up on a regular basis to help him complete the conditional inspection before I purchased the plane, which I was partly okay with as it would allow me to see the condition of the plane but in the end it seemed to me like he was looking for someone to do the gruntwork of getting into uncomfortable places of the plane to complete the inspection. His attitude about opening the cowl and unwillingness to admit that required components were not installed concerned me enough that I walked away from that plane.

 

[FormerHangie]

320 VFR -6s are (relatively) dime a dozen, which is why I'm in no hurry, but like you, it's all about the right price. Things are still about +20K hot for me. I'd give them asking if they were asking that for a 360 equipped. Of course, what -360 seller ones want is cray cray, which is fine too. In fairness to the latter, I'm not interested in incurring engine swap costs, so I'll just wait for 180hp RVs to come down.

Frankly, the topic bores me anymore. Everybody gets defensive and tries to shout you down about "prices never coming down!" and "good luck never owning an airplane!", but that's just swan songs and emotional responses. I've witnessed similar attitudes about housing and vehicles, especially in online regional/community pages. In my experience buyer's markets exist and cycle through, most of my toys have been acquired through those troughs, prices do fluctuate, at times dramatically, labor markets do tank. The same will be true for this post covid inflationary period, once you account for the fact that the post 2008 bottoms took more than half a decade.

I think my dumb#ss neighbor is on his 4th attempt at listing/de-listing his house in 18 months. Rooting for ya buddy! *beer can opening fizzle* I do feel bad for the sucker realtors who expended all that energy on open houses in this miserable C TX sweltering heat, to be told what I could have told him about his asking and this neighborhood he's lived in twice as long as me, for free.

The thing that makes the market for certificated aircraft different than most other markets is that the production of new piston airplanes is minuscule. What do we say here when someone asks which airplane to buy? Bonanza! How many new Bonanzas built last year? 3! How about a new PA-32? Zero. New Tiger? Zero. New Skylane? 48. Well, that's something. 151 Skyhawks and 146 PA-28s built last year, are doing something to bolster the training fleet, but are they getting into the hands of owner pilots? I'm thinking not after looking at Trade-A-Plane where the newest Archer listed is a 2003 model and the newest Skyhawk is a 2013 model, and the big volume in both fleets are for airplanes 40+ years old.

We've recently seen a bubble popping in used car prices, post pandemic. The market for late model used is still tight, but for model years 2019 and earlier, prices have plunged from a year ago, and that's because the production of new cars is meeting demand. That's not going to happen in the used airplane market as the supply is almost fixed, excepting Cirrus, whose numbers are off quite a bit from their peak.

 

[wsquare]

There are a lot of questions about MOSAIC, and the potential implications for the aviation marketplace, and thus selling attitude. The following video recorded at AirVenture 2023 presents a fairly good overview of where MOSAIC is heading. It features an EAA executive and the president of Van's Aircraft.

 

[unsafervguy]

Just because one company wants big money for a core doesn’t make the fleet of old engines worth more. I’m experimental only guy so it’s a different world in my view.

core value to me means what do i have to pay for a engine on the open market that is near or at tbo. right now that price for a 320 is anywhere from 8500 for a prop strike engine and upwards. what an engine shop calls core value credit is based on how much they want for the engine going out the door, and base that on what they can use from the engine coming in, mostly based on a bad cam and crank and a case that needs work. it makes total sense to just sell your engine and pay the outright price to the overhauler.

 

[Bob Noel]

I took the title "selling attitude" too literally. I know a lot of people with attitude, and it would be great if they could sell some of it and calm down a bit, but I don't think it's a sellers market. No offense to OP, no clue.

But I do agree that if the plane doesn't sell quickly for X, then X is too big. Same as houses, cars, food. So you could either change the entire market, or make X smaller. As others have said, it's just math.

I took it slightly differently, kind of like the argument skit...

 

[Grum.Man]

core value to me means what do i have to pay for a engine on the open market that is near or at tbo. right now that price for a 320 is anywhere from 8500 for a prop strike engine and upwards. what an engine shop calls core value credit is based on how much they want for the engine going out the door, and base that on what they can use from the engine coming in, mostly based on a bad cam and crank and a case that needs work. it makes total sense to just sell your engine and pay the outright price to the overhauler.

No way in heck I’m paying $8,500.00 for a TBO prop strike engine! Better come with a few yellow tags for that much!

 

[N747JB]

3 things affect sales. Price, condition and exposure. Competitive price, good condition with great pictures and listed on Barnstormers, TAP and Contoller. If it’s not getting calls, it’s probably priced too high.
Same is true for almost all things for sale, cars, houses, tractors, boats, equipment.

 

[Pinecone]

Although a guy I know needed to sell his house as his job was moving due to BRAC.

He listed it for what he thought was a fare price. 6 weeks nothing. Got an agent. The agent looked at the place and listed it for something like $30,000 - $40000 more. Held an open house. Two couples got in a bidding war in the living room and the house sold for $75,000 more than he had it listed for a week earlier.