Self Serve Fuel Manners RANT

steingar said:
I'm going to get flamed for this, but I think the OP was the clueless one. I'd have hopped out of my Waco, walked up to the gaggle and asked if they were getting fuel. Were they not I would have asked them to move out of the way so I could do so. I would have offered to help moving their airplane.

I had this very same thing happen on my last flight. As I was taxiing back to my hangar there was an aircraft halfway out of its hangar with a gaggle around it. My hangar row is one way in one way out. It didn't look like it was going anywhere, so I approached to a safe distance and shut down. Idiots thought I could just taxi past, I invited them to look at the position of my wing. Finally I got them to move the damn airplane back in its hangar so I could drag my own airplane back to my hangar in the 90 degree heat. Just to add insult to injury there was a note in my hangar (I left it open) that taxiways were for aircraft movement.
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I guess you missed this part of post 11:
"I had a major back fusion last year. Supposed to limit myself to 30 pound lift, several other restrictions. Getting in and out of a Taperwing is not easy, so not really an option."

BTW, I would love to see you "hop out" of a Taperwing.
 
ebetancourt said:
I guess you missed this part of post 11:
"I had a major back fusion last year. Supposed to limit myself to 30 pound lift, several other restrictions. Getting in and out of a Taperwing is not easy, so not really an option."

BTW, I would love to see you "hop out" of a Taperwing.
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If the OP is so debilitated perhaps he should consider flying something less massive with better access.
 
It usually isn't too far to push a plane to get it so it doesn't block the pumps.

Actually, my injected continental is much easier to restart shortly after shutdown than it is if I let it percolate for twenty minutes or so.
 
flyingron said:
Back when I was VKX, Aviation Adventures moved in and were a royal pain in the ass. Not only did they have Wartofsky evict me and a couple of others from our front row tie-downs so Adventures could park their planes togehter, the morons would leave their planes blocking the fuel pumps between lessons while they debriefed their students and lined up the next one. In addition, the prime parking spaces didn't apparently help their idiot instructors as they still managed to taxi into a 337 sitting on Bobbi's ramp (which is behind the rear row of tie downs, no reason for them even to be back there). Of course, they were the first ones to bail from VKX after 9/11 so I hope Dave learned his lesson about giving considerations to *******s.
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Who?
 
steingar said:
If the OP is so debilitated perhaps he should consider flying something less massive with better access.
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Wow. So we can solve these problems by either a) showing each other a little common courtesy and human understanding on the ramp, or b) asking a subset of the pilot population to relinquish access to some aircraft types due to physical limitations which in no way affects their ability to fly said aircraft. Gotcha.

I'll choose option a).
 
kath said:
Wow. So we can solve these problems by either a) showing each other a little common courtesy and human understanding on the ramp, or b) asking a subset of the pilot population to relinquish access to some aircraft types due to physical limitations which in no way affects their ability to fly said aircraft. Gotcha.

I'll choose option a).
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Having a bad day ? ☹️
 
I am inclined to see option (a) as the preferred choice all the time, good day or bad.
 
kath said:
Wow. So we can solve these problems by either a) showing each other a little common courtesy and human understanding on the ramp, or b) asking a subset of the pilot population to relinquish access to some aircraft types due to physical limitations which in no way affects their ability to fly said aircraft. Gotcha.

I'll choose option a).
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Kath, I've made the very firm decision that the day I can't push my aircraft into its hangar is the day I put a for sale sign on it. Just how I see it. Were the fellow the OP was ranting about simply filling his aircraft alone he'd be in the same boat. He'd have a giant aircraft he has to pull over to the pumps, and there might not be anyone to assist him. A lot of the fields at which I fill up are all but deserted.
 
steingar said:
Kath, I've made the very firm decision that the day I can't push my aircraft into its hangar is the day I put a for sale sign on it. Just how I see it. Were the fellow the OP was ranting about simply filling his aircraft alone he'd be in the same boat. He'd have a giant aircraft he has to pull over to the pumps, and there might not be anyone to assist him. A lot of the fields at which I fill up are all but deserted.
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Who stops their aircraft, shuts the engine down, gets out, and pushes/pulls it to the pumps if they are the only ones at the airport? Really? That's your rebuttal?

Have you NEVER taxied to the pumps and shut down AT THE PUMPS?

You're doing it wrong.
 
EdFred said:
Who stops their aircraft, shuts the engine down, gets out, and pushes/pulls it to the pumps if they are the only ones at the airport? Really? That's your rebuttal?

Have you NEVER taxied to the pumps and shut down AT THE PUMPS?

You're doing it wrong.
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I've had plenty of times when there's one aircraft at the pumps and nobody else around. Lots and lots of times, even happened on my way up to 6Y9 in Michigan. The day I have to ask the other pilot to assist me because I'm too feeble to move my own airplane to the pumps is the day I put a for sale sign on it. I will try very hard not rely on the kindness of strangers.
 
Kath, I've made the very firm decision that the day I can't push my aircraft into its hangar is the day I put a for sale sign on it.
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I wasn't able to push my airplane into the hangar at CJR and I'm as abled body as anybody. Pushing a Navion uphill is a challenge. It took me pushing on the wing root and Margy on the tow bar to get it back in there. I got a tug shortly after we moved in there.
 
flyingron said:
I wasn't able to push my airplane into the hangar at CJR and I'm as abled body as anybody. Pushing a Navion uphill is a challenge. It took me pushing on the wing root and Margy on the tow bar to get it back in there. I got a tug shortly after we moved in there.
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I also love seeing the owner of the Citation on the field pulling his plane out of the hangar by hand. Oh, wait, he doesn't. Guess he better hang it up.

I also have an electric (riding) tug for my plane, because, ice.
 
steingar said:
Kath, I've made the very firm decision that the day I can't push my aircraft into its hangar is the day I put a for sale sign on it. Just how I see it. Were the fellow the OP was ranting about simply filling his aircraft alone he'd be in the same boat. He'd have a giant aircraft he has to pull over to the pumps, and there might not be anyone to assist him. A lot of the fields at which I fill up are all but deserted.
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It’s incredibly difficult for me to push the cherokee uphill into the hangar. Nor do I wish to cause more damage to my body after 3 knee and 1 shoulder surgeries. I’ve used an electric tug ever since I moved into the hangar, almost 20 yrs ago.

I certainly wouldn’t stop driving if I couldn’t push the car into the garage. Which I can’t under any circumstance.
 
steingar said:
I've had plenty of times when there's one aircraft at the pumps and nobody else around. Lots and lots of times, even happened on my way up to 6Y9 in Michigan. The day I have to ask the other pilot to assist me because I'm too feeble to move my own airplane to the pumps is the day I put a for sale sign on it. I will try very hard not rely on the kindness of strangers.
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Why are you pushing YOUR plane by hand to the pumps?
 
steingar said:
If the OP is so debilitated perhaps he should consider flying something less massive with better access.
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lots of assumptions. I’m not debilitated, but I am fragile. I am at risk of breaking one of titanium rods in my back. Having done that once, I will avoid the additional surgery when possible. The Taperwing, like all the variations of the Waco 10 is hard to get in and out of. No harder or easier to get in than before the surgery.

I suspect you must be a guidance counselor. Make recommendations based on assumptions and your own standards.

EDIT: BTW, I have never had to pull my airplanes in or out of a self service pump. I did fuel. By myself.
 
steingar said:
The day I have to ask the other pilot to assist me because I'm too feeble to move my own airplane to the pumps is the day I put a for sale sign on it. I will try very hard not rely on the kindness of strangers.
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Suit yourself... I doubt very many other pilots would be willing to sacrifice something so important, for a reason so small.

I need to, and do, ask for help from strangers at airports regularly, and I do not think twice about it. Even the humble 172 is a handful for lil' ol' me if there's any kind of slope, or gravel or dirt. Usually the result is one fewer stranger in the world; it's one of my favorite things about airport culture.
 
ebetancourt said:
lots of assumptions. I’m not debilitated, but I am fragile. I am at risk of breaking one of titanium rods in my back. Having done that once, I will avoid the additional surgery when possible. The Taperwing, like all the variations of the Waco 10 is hard to get in and out of. No harder or easier to get in than before the surgery.

I suspect you must be a guidance counselor. Make recommendations based on assumptions and your own standards.

EDIT: BTW, I have never had to pull my airplanes in or out of a self service pump. I did fuel. By myself.
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Were it me I would be having the following conversation with myself. "Am I likely to get into a situation where I might hurt myself doing a normal operation?" That's always the salient question for me. Good example, I had a fire breathing crotch rocket race motorcycle. Thing was so fast it could have given my Mooney a run for it's money. I loved that bike for its easy speed and good looks. A friend constantly told me about fancy race cars he saw on TV. I reminded him I could take them on most tracks on my motorcycle I owned and rode. But it hurt. The crouch is hard on the back and all the joins involved, you don't see many old guys on them for a reason. The pain started lingering after I got off and it was gone.

Mind you I've said over and over I apply this to me. My reasoning vis a vis the aircraft is pretty simple. If I'm not confident that I can pull it up to the pump or push it into the hangar or do anything else that isn't routine I shouldn't be operating it. My fear is my limitation could lead me into a dangerous situation, like stretching fuel to the next stop because there's no fuel truck. As to Kath's point, I don't operate often on turf or unimproved surfaces, and I doubt there are many people who could manually tow an airplane on those surfaces. Were that my life I would definitely rethink things. But were that my life I'd not be flying the airplane I am.
 
EdFred said:
Who stops their aircraft, shuts the engine down, gets out, and pushes/pulls it to the pumps if they are the only ones at the airport? Really? That's your rebuttal?

Have you NEVER taxied to the pumps and shut down AT THE PUMPS?

You're doing it wrong.
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No. I'm not doing it wrong. Around the pump at the aeroclub's pump is a yellow arc - we are not allowed to taxi beyond that arc. We are required to shutdown and pull it to the pumps (at least we were 10 years ago... I haven't flown at that club since 2011.
 
Bob Noel said:
No. I'm not doing it wrong. Around the pump at the aeroclub's pump is a yellow arc - we are not allowed to taxi beyond that arc. We are required to shutdown and pull it to the pumps (at least we were 10 years ago... I haven't flown at that club since 2011.
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Would I know that as a transient? I haven't ever been to a place that has posted those rules.
 
Bob Noel said:
No. I'm not doing it wrong. Around the pump at the aeroclub's pump is a yellow arc - we are not allowed to taxi beyond that arc. We are required to shutdown and pull it to the pumps (at least we were 10 years ago... I haven't flown at that club since 2011.
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Must be fun to fuel up a DC-3...
 
EdFred said:
Would I know that as a transient? I haven't ever been to a place that has posted those rules.
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Nope. Of course at the example I gave, the pumps are only for the use of the aeroclub members (an USAF aeroclub). btw - every member was instructed to fuel and then get the heck out of the way. Pretty much any time there were 2 or more aircraft waiting to be fueled, everybody would help push/pull the aircraft around.

Another airport that I used to frequent had self-serve pumps (they had 80 octane). I would always pull my aircraft to the pump by hand.

In fact, I have never rolled up to the pumps under power and for sure and certain always pushed away before starting.
 
My buddy that got me flying back in 2006 called this morning. They had an impromptu get together with a gaggle of AC from our area (half dozen). Parked and as they were about to enter the FBO, a Cirrus fires up in its parking spot at high RPM like a run-up, absolutely BLASTING one of the experimentals parked behind him. They run over yelling for him to shutdown and he respond that the other AC is tied down:confused::confused::confused:
 
KVLL a couple of years back: Helicopter (with a lawnmower engine), parked in front of the fuel pump, in 15F Feb Weather. I pull up and wait for him to refuel, but pilot is sitting in the helicopter and waives hello, while talking on the phone. I figured he had something impt. going on and decided to give him a few mins. I had my engine off and am now getting cold. After 10-15 minutes I get to the WTF point and walk over to him knock on his window. He calmly opens door and states he is not sure how to start the helicopter and hes talking to his CFI to figure it out. Ignoring the obvious...WHAT THE HELL are you doing in a machine you dont know how to start and how did you get it here?!?... I told him it would have been polite to let me know so I can pull my plane near the pump(sideways :) ) and get some gas. Instead of apologizing for being an ignorant pos, he just said oh ok go ahead and get gas. @#@%$@!!%#
Some of these flight schools...I think they need to also teach manners, and how to start the engine when they let students fly solo.
 
steingar said:
I've had plenty of times when there's one aircraft at the pumps and nobody else around. Lots and lots of times, even happened on my way up to 6Y9 in Michigan. The day I have to ask the other pilot to assist me because I'm too feeble to move my own airplane to the pumps is the day I put a for sale sign on it. I will try very hard not rely on the kindness of strangers.
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Will you stop posting on POA as well?
 
steingar said:
SNIP

Mind you I've said over and over I apply this to me. SNIP
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I respect your decision to limit yourself to your standards. I have mine. This taken from your post makes the above a little strange:

"but I think the OP was the clueless one" Sort of implies that I should live by your standards; since I don't I'm clueless. I fly taildraggers and prefer grass. Based on grass for 20 years actually. On the other hand, I am no longer willing to fly single engine at night. With that limitation one couldn't even pass a PPL practical. I expect no one to adhere to my standards/opinions. Suits me, and to me that is all that matters.
 
ebetancourt said:
I guess you missed this part of post 11:
"I had a major back fusion last year. Supposed to limit myself to 30 pound lift, several other restrictions. Getting in and out of a Taperwing is not easy, so not really an option."

BTW, I would love to see you "hop out" of a Taperwing.
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You started off by saying you were in a Waco Taperwing... this alone deserves a level of respect and would have stopped any other conversation that was going on in my group of aviators! Not only would I get out of your way, I'd be waiting there to check out your plane!

Most of the complaints in this thread are because there is no common sense or common courtesy anymore. I have people park in front of my hangar occasionally and it's always related to my friend across from me who gives instruction... I shouldn't have to have this discussion with him over and over, but I do. It will end with a tow truck and some hurt feelings some day...
 
Lowflynjack said:
I have people park in front of my hangar occasionally and it's always related to my friend across from me who gives instruction... I shouldn't have to have this discussion with him over and over, but I do. It will end with a tow truck and some hurt feelings some day...
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An IA friend got into a similar situation with boneheads who routinely blocked his hangar. At some point, he jacked up the offending vehicle and put it on jack stands, with the tires removed. It went downhill from there and the FBO had to bring in the police to settle the situation.
 
I don't remember where it was, since it was in the last century, but I taxied up to a self-serve pump with a student and there was a similar Cessna blocking the pump.

Without hesitation, I grabbed the towbar and moved the other airplane out of the way and proceeded to fuel our airplane. We walked into the FBO, paid for the gas (there were no credit card pumps back then) and left. Dual cross countries take all day if you have to wait for inconsiderate yoohoos who walk away and leave their airplane blocking the pump.

As far as I was concerned, there must have been an emergency that required the pilot to be evacuated. That would be the only excuse for such a thing...
 
Confession time: I managed to lock my plane key in the plane at the pump, with the parking brake set and the baggage door locked (of course). Don't ask me how I did it, as you need the key to lock the door from the outside. But I managed to do it somehow. I felt like a real heel. Fortunately my co-owner lives pretty close to the airport, and happened to be home to bail me out.
 
luvflyin-great post! The line crew at one of the airports back home had two interesting ways of modifying pilot behavior. Pilots who left their plane blocking the fuel pumps or taxiways frequently returned to find their airplane had been moved into the deepest mud puddle. Another technique, if the pilot decided to take a nap without properly parking, was to tie the pilot's shoe laces together then wake the pilot up saying their wife was on the phone and really ****ed. We had one pilot who needed two of these treatments before learning the lesson.
 
Oooh, an opportunity for a rant? Don't mind if I do.

Last time I got Self-serve, there was a tripacer infront of me with an older guy and presumably his son, probably a few years younger than me pretty lackadaisically fueling their plane. When they finally got out of the way and I pushed the plane forward, the older guy turned out to be a huge *******. I guess he liked the idea of "making one less stranger"... but by doing so he lectured me about how stupid it was that I would fly behind a carb'd O-470, because he had a carb ice event that he nearly didn't recover from. It was the worst engine ever made, and he converted the 182 that he owned to fuel injected because of it. I told him I had many hours accross the country in the plane over a few years and he assured me he had more knowledge over the 5 years he owned his 182. He then proceeded to be condescending to my wife (also a pilot) about how if it happened with her in the plane she'd never want to "come along with ever again".

I was so taken aback, I didn't know to call him out for being such an *******. Next time I see him, I won't make that mistake. His son stood by looking awfully sheepish. Being young in aviation, I'm not new to condescension that's what I've dealt with most of my flying career, but that was a whole new level.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Oooh, an opportunity for a rant? Don't mind if I do.

Last time I got Self-serve, there was a tripacer infront of me with an older guy and presumably his son, probably a few years younger than me pretty lackadaisically fueling their plane. When they finally got out of the way and I pushed the plane forward, the older guy turned out to be a huge *******. I guess he liked the idea of "making one less stranger"... but by doing so he lectured me about how stupid it was that I would fly behind a carb'd O-470, because he had a carb ice event that he nearly didn't recover from. It was the worst engine ever made, and he converted the 182 that he owned to fuel injected because of it. I told him I had many hours accross the country in the plane over a few years and he assured me he had more knowledge over the 5 years he owned his 182. He then proceeded to be condescending to my wife (also a pilot) about how if it happened with her in the plane she'd never want to "come along with ever again".

I was so taken aback, I didn't know to call him out for being such an *******. Next time I see him, I won't make that mistake. His son stood by looking awfully sheepish. Being young in aviation, I'm not new to condescension that's what I've dealt with most of my flying career, but that was a whole new level.
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"Well, I've never had any of these problems flying my 182, I must be a much better pilot!"
 
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