Second solo XC - problems

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GauzeGuy

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GauzeGuy
Did my second solo XC yesterday. Not a fun time, and may have some repercussions to deal with as a result.

Flew KAPA to KFNL. Those of you who aren't aware of the Denver area, getting from one to the other is pictured on the back of the TAC. Basically stay just west of I25, at 7500 to duck under KDEN Bravo. It was a rather bumpy day, but manageable for the first part of the way up. Getting close to KFNL, I checked the AWOS -- 6 kts, not bad, and decided to enter a left downwind to land on 33. Getting closer to the mountain, the turbulence became worse than I've ever experienced. To be honest, it scared the crap out of me. I hate to paint myself as a wuss, but I can't think of one other time in my life where I've experienced that level of absolute fear. Full throttle, went around, exited the pattern to the east.

Again, if you look at the TAC, the route back to KAPA is at 8500 and closer to the mountains, which is the route that I planned. I figured though if I just flew back via the planned route, I was really not going to have a good time going back that way since the conditions seemed to be worse close to the mountains.

I planned on heading east of the KDEN bravo as conditions were probably a lot better in the area, but since I wasn't familiar with the area I figured I'd better make a plan before just flying it. What I decided to do is divert to KGXY, which is just 17 east of KFNL. Winds calmed nicely away from the mountains, entered left downwind for 9, landed and exited once the shaking stopped. Plotted a rough route back to KAPA to the east, double checked my fuel and departed once I had calmed down a bit.

The route back was much better. Just kept the thumb on the TAC chart to keep track of where I was, using the various lakes and small towns east of Denver and tuned in the mile high VOR/DME. Landed at KAPA in time to turn the aircraft over to the next renter. I'm usually disappointed when I have to land. This time I've never been happier to get back to the ground and to the ramp.

Today I sent a txt to my CFI explaining the situation, and its not sounding good. There's some "safety report" that I get to fill out. My guess is that I'm going to catch hell for landing at an airport that I was not endorsed for. Understandable, but my thought has always been that if I wound up in a situation that I had not anticipated at my level of (in)experience, then the best idea might just be to get out of dodge and figure out a different plan. It just suck to think that anything significant could result of this when I should be a matter of a few weeks away from my check ride (aside from my long XC, everything else is done). I did what I could under the conditions I felt I was under and with the experience that I had. I wasn't perfect but I did get the aircraft back without damage and without busting airspace. I was honest with my CFI, when I could have just pencil whipped my logbook. If that isn't good enough, well...

Comments will be appreciated.
 
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I don't know, you experienced some bad turbulence and had to shift your plan. Yeah you landed at an unapproved airport, but honestly who cares. You did what you had to do in that situation. Had you kept going that could have been a link in an accident. I say don't worry, you handled it well and learned from it. I'm sure your cfi will understand.
 
IIRC the endorsement is only airport specific if it involves a Class B airport, otherwise it's for distance from home base.
 
I give your ADM and A+. Seriously, you weren't comfortable so you fixed the situation for yourself. You came back safely as did the airplane. No, you weren't endorsed for it and that's a no-no... but we all know that things can come up and that they do. It's a fact of life and a fact of flying. Would your CFI had rather you come back with a bent airplane, assuming you did make it back?
 
I don't think there will be an issue with landing at an airport where you weren't endorsed - that's a safety of flight issue. There may be some explanation necessary as to why you took off again, though, from an airport where you weren't endorsed.
 
The ASRS safety report is anonymous and for research data for safety. It doesn't mean you are in trouble.
You made a PIC decision consistent with your learning. You didn't bust airspace and like you said you got back safe and sound, even if a little shook up ... And you didn't lie! Well, that's a very important thing in my book.
 
If you get yelled at - remember - that's why God gave you two ears - in and out.

A diversion for weather (and turbulance is weather) is an integral part of cross country flying.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I give your ADM and A+. Seriously, you weren't comfortable so you fixed the situation for yourself. You came back safely as did the airplane. No, you weren't endorsed for it and that's a no-no... but we all know that things can come up and that they do. It's a fact of life and a fact of flying. Would your CFI had rather you come back with a bent airplane, assuming you did make it back?
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I second this.

When I first started reading this I thought you were going to tell us that you ended up busting the Class B or something like that.

In reality, I think you did an excellent job of ADM and would say go ahead, fill out out any required paperwork and if the CFI doesn't like the way you handled it, you might want to go looking for a new CFI.
 
Your CFI ought to take the opportunity to show you how to fill out an ASRS report. That should be the end of it.

On my long cross-country solo flight, I was signed off for every airport I expected to come near with the exception of Bradley, which is a Class C airport. Needless to say, a weather front with solid overcast blocked my way as I flew over Bradley. Unable to figure out anywhere else to go that would have a working telephone and services, I radioed Bradley, landed and phoned the CFI. Together, we worked out where I should go next and that was that.

This is the time in your life when you are learning what you can deal with and how to do it. Good decision.
 
That sounds great! who the hell would get you in trouble for being awesome! You the man!
 
This also gives you a chance to talk with your CFI regarding turbulence, mountain effects and how to handle them.
I'd be very pleased, if I were your CFI, to know that you had the presence of mind to land and settle down and figure out what to do next. That speaks volumes for your ability to take charge and stay safe.
 
Excellent decision making. As noted in other postings here, there's no repercussions from the FAA because you didn't bust Class B nor land at DIA.

However, even if you had decided to land at DIA, so what? Based on your experience and your concern about turbulence, you made a decision based on safety, which is the #1 requirement by the FAA.

If the CFI didn't like what you did, what does the school think? If neither approved of what you did, time to consider another CFI and another school

What airplane type of were you flying? LSAs are much more prone to being uncomfortable in bumps than in larger airplanes (except a 152 of course).
 
Your instructor will be happy to see that you have good ADM skills. That's one thing that can't be completely taught.

I had to scrub part of my long XC when I was doing my PPL training. I thought my instructor would be disappointed that I didn't complete it. He was very pleased and told me I made a good decision.
 
If you were MY student, you'd be getting a "attaboy" for your decision. You did a good thing. With more experience you may find that the turbulence is something you'll fly through in the future, but you did EXACTLY the right thing by deciding to get on the ground when you were scared.
 
When I read the first few sentences, I was expecting a Bravo bust...

From the sound of it, you did an EXCELLENT job of handling an unfamiliar and even frightening situation. I would expect your CFI to say the same. The ASRS should be the first and last thing you'll need to do about it.
 
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Nice job.

Btw, I didn't see anyone spell it out and was thinking you might not know...

ADM = Aeronautical Decision Making.

You displayed good ADM. Nice work young pilot.
 
I'm just glad you didn't become a statistic. Nothing wrong with landing when you don't feel comfortable up there anymore. Flying is fun not torture!
 
At this point I'm just echoing everyone else -- you made great decisions, and had an excellent cross-country experience.

It's good to be able to fly and land when everything goes to plan, but it's far more important to be cool and collected when that plan falls apart.

There are pilots in the NTSB database because they chose to go with their original plan even when it was obvious it would not work out. We had one around here last year of a man who lost his life and his children when he continued into deteriorating weather he was not trained for and could not handle -- he was so far behind the plane not only did he not realize he penetrated class D airspace, but he was midfield (if I remember the article correctly) when he realized it.

Don't second guess yourself, you made the right decision. If your instructor is worth anything they will agree your ADM was excellent. Just note in your log why you did what you did in case it's ever asked about. Otherwise, chalk it up to experience gained that many don't get for a while.
 
Not that I know anything, but seems like you did the right thing.

One question though. Why was your flight plan both directions even numbered? (6500 and 8500). Were you going due north/south? I thought when heading east, you want to fly odd numbers.
 
Mafoo said:
One question though. Why was your flight plan both directions even numbered? (6500 and 8500). Were you going due north/south? I thought when heading east, you want to fly odd numbers.
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In that neck of the woods, 6500 is within 3000' AGL. The even/odd altitude rules don't apply there.
 
Mafoo said:
Not that I know anything, but seems like you did the right thing.

One question though. Why was your flight plan both directions even numbered? (6500 and 8500). Were you going due north/south? I thought when heading east, you want to fly odd numbers.
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Only applies if you're above 3000' AGL. I doubt 6500 MSL is 3000 AGL anywhere around KAPA.
 
If things don't go well with the "safety report" there are plenty of other training operations around Denver. Some folks may react poorly to your decision but obviously many of us think you did good.

Perhaps the only thing you missed was calling your instructor from the ground at GXY. While you are PIC on the solo, his ticket is also on the line.
 
I know you were "in the moment" and all that, but I think the correct thing to do would have been to get some altitude, out of the turbulence, calm yourself, and go home.

You can preplan alternatives ahead of time, but that's 20/20 hindsight.

I don't think landing with the "shakes" is a good idea unless there is no reasonable alternative.

"He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day."

But it's done, and you and the aircraft are both fine. Aborting the originally planned landing was unquestionably a good decision. I don't know if your cross-country counts or not, since it happened without the required endorsement. The regs say you may not do so, but they don't seem to say what happens if you do.
 
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MAKG1 said:
I know you were "in the moment" and all that, but I think the correct thing to do would have been to get some altitude, out of the turbulence, calm yourself, and go home.

You can preplan alternatives ahead of time, but that's 20/20 hindsight.

I don't think landing with the "shakes" is a good idea unless there is no reasonable alternative.

"He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day."
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Gaining altitude may not have been an option because of either clouds or the Bravo.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Gaining altitude may not have been an option because of either clouds or the Bravo.
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And that would remove reasonable alternatives.

Though it's usually not terribly difficult to get another 2000 feet off the Class B. Those zones are only 5 miles across.

One would think that avoidance of severe turbulence would get one into Class B legitimately, either with a clearance or using 91.3(b). Though KFNL is not under Class B.
 
dukeblue219 said:
Only applies if you're above 3000' AGL. I doubt 6500 MSL is 3000 AGL anywhere around KAPA.
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At APA, pattern altitude is 6800. Pattern at FTG is 6500.

Next question for the others here - why file the ASRS?
 
MAKG1 said:
I know you were "in the moment" and all that, but I think the correct thing to do would have been to get some altitude, out of the turbulence, calm yourself, and go home.
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Getting altitude at that location requires Class B clearance. I think the OP was more worried about getting out of the area and getting on the ground instead of adding to the workload of talking to Denver Approach.
You can preplan alternatives ahead of time, but that's 20/20 hindsight.

I don't think landing with the "shakes" is a good idea unless there is no reasonable alternative.
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Beg pardon? What better time to land than when you are upset, worried, slightly panicky, etc.?
"He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day."

But it's done, and you and the aircraft are both fine. Aborting the originally planned landing was unquestionably a good decision. I don't know if your cross-country counts or not, since it happened without the required endorsement. The regs say you may not do so, but they don't seem to say what happens if you do.
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Good job getting down safely.

Now before any more solo xc trips, I would be asking my CFI for some windy day training. He should have already done this by now. With winter coming on, it is not going to get any better. You should be comfortable to at least 20 kts direct xw. The school I did my training with had a 10 kt limit and this almost got me in trouble on a solo xc. If your CFI won't or isn't allowed to take you out on a windy day, find one who will.
 
murphey said:
Getting altitude at that location requires Class B clearance. I think the OP was more worried about getting out of the area and getting on the ground instead of adding to the workload of talking to Denver Approach.
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'Fraid I'm not following you. Loveland is not underneath Denver Class B. Even if it had been, it would have traded one violation for another.

murphey said:
Beg pardon? What better time to land than when you are upset, worried, slightly panicky, etc.?
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That is NOT a reason to land, at least not on its own. It's a reason to abort the mission. A panicked landing can result in casualties. Being a few thousand feet above the ground is safer than being a few feet above the ground. Save the latter for after one has calmed down.

Would an off-airport landing have been appropriate here? If the answer isn't an unambiguous "yes," a panic landing was a net risk.

This isn't an obvious lesson, and the actions at hand were reasonable under the circumstances. But that doesn't mean they were necessarily the best thing to do.

There are a lot of good lessons here -- and I'd expect the OP learned more in this one flight than in all the others put together. But, IMO, the really important ones are what constitutes an emergency, and what doesn't. This was not an emergency once the aircraft was under control. 14 CFR 91.3(b) doesn't apply to the remote airport landing. It might have applied to a Class B violation if that was necessary to clear severe turbulence. That's why the ASRS form is necessary.
 
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When you get the crap scared out of you - as soon as the overt shaking stops its time to land. Period. Anywhere that looks good.

Get out, vomit, yell, scream, go wash your fact off, whatever feels good.

I will say that in 99% of the cases the turbulence leaves inside a 100AGL - so the landing smoothes out a lot.

He endorsed you to be PIC. You were. You made the best decision you could.

Fill out their form and bygones - just don't admit to anything illegal - there is no reason to - don't fill out the form if makes you uncomfortable. Who cares. You landed at GXY because of physiological reasons. End of story. You just learned what its like to exercise PIC authority in adverse conditions. Not all adverse conditions are weather or aircraft related - some involve the pilot, or passengers.

When my Viking exited the runway left despite all efforts to keep it on centerline [there was a broken steering rod - metal fatigue] I was soon faced with a cop who 'had a form to fill out.' I told him that was really nice- and if he wanted to call me tomorrow I'll fill out his damn form. I was still shaking. It's ok - we're human and we get the results of that humanity coursing through our veins at the most inopportune time.
 
You did the right thing. You were the pilot in command and have the right to do what is necessary for reasons of safety. If your CFI doesn't recognize that you should get someone else.

I hate severe turbulence also and there are times I am really happy to get back on the ground safely.
 
MAKG1 said:
That is NOT a reason to land, at least not on its own. It's a reason to abort the mission. A panicked landing can result in casualties. Being a few thousand feet above the ground is safer than being a few feet above the ground. Save the latter for after one has calmed down.
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I call BS. Go back and re-read the original post. It was not a PANIC landing. The OP stated that they were shook up by the original situation and felt that they needed to fly a different route back to home base. They diverted/landed to sort things out on the ground. NOT because they were shook up to a point where they couldn't fly the airplane.

That is not a sign of a pilot panicking. That is a sign of someone who understands that there is no 'pause' button to freeze things so they can re-group their thoughts in flight.
 
Lots of great advice so far, can't add too much that hasn't been spoken.

Turbulence can scare that crap out of you, been there done that. You were the pilot in command of an aircraft and based on your experience you decided to divert. That is a sign of a great pilot in my book. Congrats.
 
MAKG1 said:
But, IMO, the really important ones are what constitutes an emergency, and what doesn't. This was not an emergency once the aircraft was under control. 14 CFR 91.3(b) doesn't apply to the remote airport landing.
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Disagree. IMO, the only potential FAR issue was taking off from the remote airport to fly back home without the CFI's permission. However, I doubt the FAA would want to push that issue, as it would encourage others to not make the smart decisions that the OP made.
 
Jeanie said:
The ASRS safety report is anonymous and for research data for safety. It doesn't mean you are in trouble.
You made a PIC decision consistent with your learning. You didn't bust airspace and like you said you got back safe and sound, even if a little shook up ... And you didn't lie! Well, that's a very important thing in my book.
[...]
This also gives you a chance to talk with your CFI regarding turbulence, mountain effects and how to handle them.
I'd be very pleased, if I were your CFI, to know that you had the presence of mind to land and settle down and figure out what to do next. That speaks volumes for your ability to take charge and stay safe.
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Thank you!

The safety report that I was referring to is a club thing. From reading it, seems to be mainly looking at aircraft damage, whether a briefing was received prior to flight, etc.
 
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GauzeGuy said:
The safety report that I was referring to is a club thing. From reading it, seems to be mainly looking at aircraft damage, whether a briefing was received prior to flight, etc.
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That seems like a decent thing to do. The flight did not proceed as planned, a diversion was required. It's a good idea to go back and look at it after all the fun as worn off and figure out what went wrong, what went right, and what could be done better next time.

You did good.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I call BS. Go back and re-read the original post. It was not a PANIC landing. The OP stated that they were shook up by the original situation and felt that they needed to fly a different route back to home base. They diverted/landed to sort things out on the ground. NOT because they were shook up to a point where they couldn't fly the airplane.

That is not a sign of a pilot panicking. That is a sign of someone who understands that there is no 'pause' button to freeze things so they can re-group their thoughts in flight.
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Thank you.

At no point was I in panic. Fearful for my safety, yes.

When I'm in a dangerous situation (or at least have the perception thereof) generally I take care of business, then fall apart once everything has been handled.

My concern was that if I tried to adjust my route, etc, in the air, I'm not nearly efficient enough. I'd be running the risk of CFIT / mid-air my spreading my attention too far. Back on the ground, I was able to look over the TAC, review way points, nav aids, fuel requirements, distances and also double check existing fuel to ensure it was sufficient to safety continue.
 
RV10flyer said:
Good job getting down safely.

Now before any more solo xc trips, I would be asking my CFI for some windy day training. He should have already done this by now. With winter coming on, it is not going to get any better. You should be comfortable to at least 20 kts direct xw. The school I did my training with had a 10 kt limit and this almost got me in trouble on a solo xc. If your CFI won't or isn't allowed to take you out on a windy day, find one who will.
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My endorsement is (was) only for 5 kts xwind, 10 kts total.

I'd obtained some additional xwind sim time on my own, but none in really dealing with turbulence and what the aircraft or I can handle. Call it fear of the unknown.
 
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