Second solo XC - problems

14 CFR 61.93(c)(2)(ii)(C) requires compliance with limitations in the endorsement. Every endorsement I've seen for this specifies the destinations, plus perhaps alternates.
 
Limitation means 'may not' vice not listed. I think the student exercised prudent judgement to divert (they are taught those right...?), therefore as the sole authority over operation of the aircraft he diverted.

Once back on the ground is another story altogether.
 
denverpilot said:
We usually just don't have enough water vapor in the air to see them very well. They're there. ;)

La Veta is a damned death trap in certain conditions. It looks big and wide and flat and it's really quite a long while that you're over inhospitable terrain at high altitude without a lower place to go.

I really prefer Mosca Pass just north of La Veta to La Veta unless its just dead calm. Too many airplanes wrecked in La Veta. Plus it's cool to pop out on the West side over the Great Sand Dunes National Monument. Sand sand everywhere... Puurrty.
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It was a tough day and I learned a lot about what the aircraft will take and what the air will do on a windy day over the San Louis Valley. Smooth air was difficult to find and I could see the rotors above me. I'm sure the guys in the Mooney behind me had an interesting ride because they were trying to do the same as I was only they were higher...up where the clouds looked real interesting. Guess they got through it all right since I didn't read about them in the paper the next day. I had clean shorts after the trip but wasn't real happy with the conditions.

On sharing the lessons learned: if possible go up high, cruise at or below Va and switch the autopilot to pitch hold rather than altitude hold. Watch the clouds and make sure you're above, or below the rotors. If you're above the rotors you'll be in wave which doesn't necessarily behave like the pretty sketches in the books. In a pinch it is possible to go between rotors when they aren't the linear type. None of this is to be done casually to say the least. Be willing to say "not today" and go back home. Remember the air can't read the books or look at the sketches so it'll behave as it wishes, not as we might expect.
 
denverpilot said:
Clark's bird will get you there the fastest... Haha... Murphy and I usually get there about the same time... Teller and Everskyward (Mari) would whip all our butts in their work airplanes, but since they usually can't bring those along...
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Yup, mines fastest: to the gas pump, to the mechanic's hangar,...

The 'kota was supposed to be put back in my hangar yesterday (mag, alternator drive, plugs) so I'm up for flying this weekend if anybody wants to make a breakfast or lunch run.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Limitation means 'may not' vice not listed. I think the student exercised prudent judgement to divert (they are taught those right...?), therefore as the sole authority over operation of the aircraft he diverted.

Once back on the ground is another story altogether.
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Why is simply being on the ground "another story"? The original cross-country flight was not complete since the OP hadn't reached the final destination - the home field.

Consider if a student flies off course by X miles and discovers the mistake and makes a course correction. The new course was not part of the original course in the plan that the CFI was required to review. Is the student pilot in violation of the regs, and if so, at what point did the pilot violate them?

Suppose the OP had simply overflown KGXY and then flown back home versus landing and then flying home....
 
Jim Logajan said:
Why is simply being on the ground "another story"?
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Because the regs specifically address being on the ground (stud must be signed off for specific airports). My CFI was careful and listed alternates for me when I was doing X-Cs.
 
Clark1961 said:
Yup, mines fastest: to the gas pump, to the mechanic's hangar,...

The 'kota was supposed to be put back in my hangar yesterday (mag, alternator drive, plugs) so I'm up for flying this weekend if anybody wants to make a breakfast or lunch run.
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Mine's in the hangar but the cylinders are on the bench at the shop.

*whine*
 
Clark1961 said:
Because the regs specifically address being on the ground (stud must be signed off for specific airports). My CFI was careful and listed alternates for me when I was doing X-Cs.
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I thought that part of the >50nm XC endorsement was that the CFI was signing off that the flight planning had been completed. That included info for the airports of intended landing - traffic patterns, TPA, NOTAMs, whatever. Landing at an airport not listed as an alternate or not briefed is one thing (emergencies, for example), but then taking off without that briefing is another.
 
Clark1961 said:
Yup, mines fastest: to the gas pump, to the mechanic's hangar,...

The 'kota was supposed to be put back in my hangar yesterday (mag, alternator drive, plugs) so I'm up for flying this weekend if anybody wants to make a breakfast or lunch run.
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I have Black Friday and Black Saturday off, but we can't take my plane unless people save up lots of pennies.
 
Clark1961 said:
Because the regs specifically address being on the ground (stud must be signed off for specific airports). My CFI was careful and listed alternates for me when I was doing X-Cs.
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Most have already stipulated that OP's landing was not in violation of the regs to the extent that the pilot was reasonably using the authority granted by 91.3(b).

So being on the ground at said airport is moot with respect to the required endorsement. Issue passed. At that point there seems to be no difference between being off course in the air and off course but on the ground. If a student is in violation by taking off to return home, they would also have been in violation simply by overflying the un-endorsed airport.
 
Huh? My checkpoints were never in any of my endorsements. My airports of intended and alternate landing were. Big difference.

The cross-country regs talk about landings at remote airports, and say absolutely nothing about the route of flight. They do say that the instructor must verify planning was adequate, and there may be an issue there (for the instructor, not the pilot). Unforecast severe turbulence is an occasional risk there, so the OP should have had some training on it.

There is a world of difference between a takeoff and a turn. The emergency was over when he was on the ground.
 
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Jim Logajan said:
Most have already stipulated that OP's landing was not in violation of the regs to the extent that the pilot was reasonably using the authority granted by 91.3(b).

So being on the ground at said airport is moot with respect to the required endorsement. Issue passed. At that point there seems to be no difference between being off course in the air and off course but on the ground. If a student is in violation by taking off to return home, they would also have been in violation simply by overflying the un-endorsed airport.
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Simply put, I disagree. Being on the ground is quite different from being in the air and inadvertently off course. On the ground a person has time and facility to contact their CFI. In the air, not so much. Furthermore, choosing to divert to an airport is a deliberate act. Getting lost is definitely not a deliberate act.
 
Everskyward said:
I have Black Friday and Black Saturday off, but we can't take my plane unless people save up lots of pennies.
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I'll check my penny jar but we may have to take the 'kota.
 
MAKG1 said:
Huh? My checkpoints were never in any of my endorsements. My airports of intended and alternate landing were. Big difference.

The cross-country regs talk about landings at remote airports, and say absolutely nothing about the route of flight. They do say that the instructor must verify planning was adequate, and there may be an issue there (for the instructor, not the pilot). Unforecast severe turbulence is an occasional risk there, so the OP should have had some training on it.

There is a world of difference between a takeoff and a turn. The emergency was over when he was on the ground.
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The emergency was indeed over. If you are legally on the ground at an airport you weren't endorsed to land at - but are still not at your final destination (which you are endorsed for,) how is it a violation to take off? There is no regulatory requirement for an endorsement to depart. OP already had endorsement to fly and land at home airport for that cross country flight. So the situation vis the endorsement requirement of being on the ground and taking off appears to be no different than being in the air at that point.

I think there is an attempt here to invent regulatory requirements in this situation where there are none. If it is claimed that the OP was not within the authority of 91.3(b) to land in the first place then there might be a reasonable argument that further flying was no longer legal. But that doesn't seem to be the argument.
 
Jim Logajan said:
I think there is an attempt here to invent regulatory requirements in this situation where there are none. If it is claimed that the OP was not within the authority of 91.3(b) to land in the first place then there might be a reasonable argument that further flying was no longer legal. But that doesn't seem to be the argument.
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If you review the thread, there have been claims that 91.3(b) would not cover the situation.

edit: I think 91.3(a) also applies when on a student solo, but I may be wrong (anyone?)
 
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14 CFR 91.3(a) does not give you the authority to break rules. 14 CFR 91.3(b) does, but only to the extent needed to meet the emergency.

That this applies to the landing is debatable -- there were alternatives other than landing that would meet the emergency, though I'd expect the OP to be cut quite a bit of slack over that. The takeoff is not necessary to meet the emergency, so it is not covered.

I think some folks need to understand 14 CFR 91.3 better. Here's an exercise:

During a VFR flight, you contact Approach enroute to a Class C airport, and the controller responds with your callsign. The controller tells you to remain clear of Class C. Can you enter? Are there any circumstances that change that answer?
 
murphey said:
Real crappy on the inside.
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:-(

My airborne steed is visiting the Great State of New Mexico for Thanksgiving and won't be around this weekend.

It whispered to me that it wants to go back to 1K1 sometime soon. It likes that place. ;)
 
Clark1961 said:
I'll check my penny jar but we may have to take the 'kota.
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If we get nine people, actually eleven counting the pilots' seats that would only cost... never mind, I don't have that many pennies either.
 
Everskyward said:
If we get nine people, actually eleven counting the pilots' seats that would only cost... never mind, I don't have that many pennies either.
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I think I have about $73.61 in my penny jar...at least that's what it was last
time I emptied it out, and it's pretty much full now.
 
murphey said:
I think I have about $73.61 in my penny jar...at least that's what it was last
time I emptied it out, and it's pretty much full now.
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That will pay the fuel bill to start the left engine.... And it needs to be shut down in less then two minutes..:eek:
 
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N801BH said:
The will pay the fuel bill to start the left engine.... And it needs to be shut down in less then two minutes..:eek:
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OK, then it's enough to buy pizza & drinks for everyone on board.
 
Drinks are included in the price of the airplane as long as you don't want anything exotic. :cheers:
 
So who's up for a lunch run tomorrow? Drinks are on Mari!
 
murphey said:
I'm hitch hiking these days. What time & where?
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I'm easy. I think the weather is supposed to be good tomorrow and I've got all day. Maybe find some BBQ somewhere?

Post maintenance flight today went fairly well - one concern is that the alternator tripped on overvoltage (apparently) but was fine after re-setting it. The autopilot flew a beautiful ILS while I played safety pilot. :D
 
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Clark1961 said:
I'm easy. I think the weather is supposed to be good tomorrow and I've got all day. Maybe find some BBQ somewhere?

Post maintenance flight today went fairly well - one concern is that the alternator tripped on overvoltage (apparently) but was fine after re-setting it. The autopilot flew a beautiful ILS while I played safety pilot. :D
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I'm hitchhiking too unless we want to make jet noises. I guess the driver gets to decide the time and place.
 
Well it was clear over the hills the alternator didn't want to make the trip. It worked for about 20 minutes and then crapped out. Had to keep cycling the alternator master most of the way back to FTG.

Shoulda just sat in Mari's plane and made jet noises...
 
Clark1961 said:
Shoulda just sat in Mari's plane and made jet noises...
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Then we would've missed out on the guy's interesting landing. I looked at photos of RVs and their gear doesn't normally stick out to the front like that. Unless it wasn't an RV. :dunno:
 
As ESPN would put it...Come on man!!! So you landed at an airport you were not endorsed to land in, you made a probable life altering decision, to say the least. You made the right call! Not to mention you even got you and the aircraft back ON TIME!!! Impressive.
 
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