RV build update

Don Jones

Don Jones

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
855
Location
Las Cruces, New Mexico
Display Name
Display name:
DJones
Hi all,
Dave Taylor asked me to update my progress with the build, so here goes.

I am currently finishing up the firewall forward stuff and the panel. It is starting to come to life and the end is in sight! I sold the Piper back in January to finance the panel goodies.

I am mating the wings for the first time this weekend and will put it on the gear then. I have held off on the gear because it's so much easier to work on it on the cart I have the fuse on. I should be painting during June and then on to the airport for the final assembly and inspection.
This month marks the 3rd year on the project. It's a pain to work for a living. My good friend Russ started his a month after me and I did his initial test flights over a year ago.....of course he is retired.:(

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Nice and clean! I like the painted ribs, stiffeners, etc. Are you going to put a fully-finished interior in?

Where did the plenum come from? I wish we had done that on the -7A - SO much easier than dealing with that friggin baffling.

Looks great! Can't wait to see the finished product.
 
CJones said:
Nice and clean! I like the painted ribs, stiffeners, etc. Are you going to put a fully-finished interior in?

Where did the plenum come from? I wish we had done that on the -7A - SO much easier than dealing with that friggin baffling.

Looks great! Can't wait to see the finished product.
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Yes, it will have the leather interior from Classic Aero. I primed all the mating surfaces and the ribs and stiffeners. I didn't mess with the skins except where something was riveted on top. My thinking was that the forming of the ribs etc damaged the alcad where the skins weren't damaged. The plenum is from Sam James, although highly modified. Some are having trouble with oil temps on this setup, so after looking at one, I moved the cooler up to get it out from behind the cylinder. Lots of glass work to make it fit tight. The plenum is mounted to Van's friggin baffling, lol. It's not going to be much longer until flying now. Can't wait!!
 
Absolutely beautiful, Don.
I hope you can tolerate another visit this year, I need to get up to see it again. Thanks for taking the time to update us.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Absolutely beautiful, Don.
I hope you can tolerate another visit this year, I need to get up to see it again. Thanks for taking the time to update us.
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Just come on up Dave, you are more than welcome anytime. Might even get you a ride in an RV:D
Here is another picture of the rest of it.

glassdone.jpg
 
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I like the cowl and baffling. Looks really efficient compared to the stuff i'm flying..
 
Don Jones said:
Yes, it will have the leather interior from Classic Aero. I primed all the mating surfaces and the ribs and stiffeners. I didn't mess with the skins except where something was riveted on top. My thinking was that the forming of the ribs etc damaged the alcad where the skins weren't damaged. The plenum is from Sam James, although highly modified. Some are having trouble with oil temps on this setup, so after looking at one, I moved the cooler up to get it out from behind the cylinder. Lots of glass work to make it fit tight. The plenum is mounted to Van's friggin baffling, lol. It's not going to be much longer until flying now. Can't wait!!
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Excellent. We're gradually adding interior to the -7A and it definitely helps with temp control and noise. Wish we had done it from the beginning, but it started to be a "Well, we can fly it or we can spend another 2 months making the interior pretty." We decided to fly. ;)

Is Sam James from the Minneapolis area? We met a guy at a RV fly-in up there several years ago that was working on a marketable plenum. After several frustrating fights with oil temps, baffles, etc., we just ended up going to a bigger oil cooler.

You'll be flying before you know it! Remember, now that you're 90% done, you've only got 90% left to go! ;)
 
I keep thinking about a -10, but I love to fly high (upper teens to 20K) & reasonably fast. Vans strongly recommends against a turbocharged/turbonormalized engine for fear that one will exceed Vne. At the same time, I need to be able to make and IFR climb at 500 FPM climb up to 20,000' or so.

Note that Vans specifies Vne as TAS.

So, for folks familiar with the -10, will the IO540 engine make enough power to allow 500 FPM in that airframe at that altitude?
 
wsuffa said:
So, for folks familiar with the -10, will the IO540 engine make enough power to allow 500 FPM in that airframe at that altitude?
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Laden or unladen? ;)

I haven't had the -10 up that high yet. I hope to be able to answer that question for you in a few weeks if someone doesn't chime in here earlier.
 
Just curious, is a non turbo aircraft efficient at those altitudes? I'd think so but ?
 
CJones said:
Laden or unladen? ;)

I haven't had the -10 up that high yet. I hope to be able to answer that question for you in a few weeks if someone doesn't chime in here earlier.
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Thanks. I know I *can* legally put a TN/TC in an experimental, but also are inclined to follow designer recommendations. Guess it's possible to design a servo that computes TAS and reduces power accordingly, but that seems too add complexity.

dell30rb said:
Just curious, is a non turbo aircraft efficient at those altitudes? I'd think so but ?
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Define "efficiency". Engine or airframe? Or combo?

Non-turbo would operate at lower (in some cases substantially reduced) power at altitude, but it should still run. Airframe efficiency is a bit better high-up in terms of TAS. You need to get enough engine power to cruise fast (close to the redline) without getting into the structural damage region especially when you hit gusts, while at the same time having enough power to climb at 500 fpm (IFR).
 
wsuffa said:
Thanks. I know I *can* legally put a TN/TC in an experimental, but also are inclined to follow designer recommendations. Guess it's possible to design a servo that computes TAS and reduces power accordingly, but that seems too add complexity.
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Perhaps just a calculated TAS display with an overspeed warning would suffice.

I was referring to speed/fuel efficiency. I know at a certain altitude a N/A aircraft just won't climb well anymore. When operated near this limit, (20,000 has got to be close, even for a big motor) is the plane still performing well in terms of GPH and TAS compared to say, 12,000 feet?
 
dell30rb said:
Perhaps just a calculated TAS display with an overspeed warning would suffice.

I was referring to speed/fuel efficiency. I know at a certain altitude a N/A aircraft just won't climb well anymore. When operated near this limit, (20,000 has got to be close, even for a big motor) is the plane still performing well in terms of GPH and TAS compared to say, 12,000 feet?
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Climb is more of my concern than cruise. Which is why I asked the question.

Given that I travel by myself most of the time and I can count on my hands the number of times I've needed more than 2 seats, perhaps I ought to be looking at a Glasair instead of an RV.... I know they'll take turbo engines and climb like a screaming banshee...
 
That's a great looking plane and a great looking panel! Good luck with the remainder!
 
wsuffa said:
I keep thinking about a -10, but I love to fly high (upper teens to 20K) & reasonably fast. Vans strongly recommends against a turbocharged/turbonormalized engine for fear that one will exceed Vne. At the same time, I need to be able to make and IFR climb at 500 FPM climb up to 20,000' or so.

Note that Vans specifies Vne as TAS.

So, for folks familiar with the -10, will the IO540 engine make enough power to allow 500 FPM in that airframe at that altitude?
Click to expand...

Van's lists the projected service ceiling as 24k' with 260 hp. So you probably won't maintain 500 fpm to 20k, and on a hot day, well...

But, you could go with a turbo and pull the power back in cruise. The obvious problems would be finding space under the cowling for the turbo and also making sure the engine cooled properly.
 
If i was going to buy an experimental it would definitely be a glasair.
 
wsuffa said:
I keep thinking about a -10, but I love to fly high (upper teens to 20K) & reasonably fast. Vans strongly recommends against a turbocharged/turbonormalized engine for fear that one will exceed Vne. At the same time, I need to be able to make and IFR climb at 500 FPM climb up to 20,000' or so.

Note that Vans specifies Vne as TAS.

So, for folks familiar with the -10, will the IO540 engine make enough power to allow 500 FPM in that airframe at that altitude?
Click to expand...

CJones said:
Laden or unladen? ;)

I haven't had the -10 up that high yet. I hope to be able to answer that question for you in a few weeks if someone doesn't chime in here earlier.
Click to expand...

No problem. When I fly CC have been to 18,000 (VFR only) and 500 fpm was no problem. Turbo / normalized would be nice, but not needed IMHO.
 
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wsuffa said:
Good data point. Thanks.
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Friends don't let friends fly plastic airplanes. ;)

The RV 10 is an amazing airframe and performs extremely well. Easy to fly, and easy to work on. Easily carries 4 full size adults, full fuel, and 100 pounds of bagage. I have taken off and landed at Laramie, WY. 7,300 MSL in the summer. :D
 
Geico266 said:
Friends don't let friends fly plastic airplanes. ;)

The RV 10 is an amazing airframe and performs extremely well. Easy to fly, and easy to work on. Easily carries 4 full size adults, full fuel, and 100 pounds of bagage. I have taken off and landed at Laramie, WY. 7,300 MSL in the summer. :D
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It is by far the roomiest cabin in a 4-seat SE that I have been in - including the 182RG, 177RG and 210 (minus the 210's back 'bench' seats). In the -10, I can sit in the back seats with a larger-than-average person in the seat in front of me and I don't have to do the 'spread eagle' or 'side-saddle' to keep my knees out of their back.

The *only* downside that I have found for the -10 so far is that it is hotter than Hades in there during pre-start check because you can't start it with the doors open like on the -7. Of course, I'm not extremely familiar with the checklist yet, so it takes longer than it should for me to check everything over and find the switches once the doors are latched.
 
The up front cost of a RV 10 is 43,265 plus freight, and sales tax if applied.

What is your best guess as to total cost of completed aircraft with new engine, instruments, and radios?

Could these kits be built and sold at a profit ?

What would a bare assembled airframe sell for? (no engine or instruments and radios)
 
Geico266 said:
Friends don't let friends fly plastic airplanes. ;)

The RV 10 is an amazing airframe and performs extremely well. Easy to fly, and easy to work on. Easily carries 4 full size adults, full fuel, and 100 pounds of bagage. I have taken off and landed at Laramie, WY. 7,300 MSL in the summer. :D
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Glass/plastic doesn't bother me for a good design. There are advantages to metal, and there are advantages to fiberglass (and advantages to rag & tube). It's all about the mission....
 
Tom-D said:
What turned you off?
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Are they runway hogs? Can you land one in a 25 kt gusty crosswind?

(is it tandem?) seating is a bit of a turn off.

I like them for their efficiency and speed. Not sayin I wouldn't buy one, they have some excellent qualities.
 
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Tom-D said:
The up front cost of a RV 10 is 43,265 plus freight, and sales tax if applied.

What is your best guess as to total cost of completed aircraft with new engine, instruments, and radios?

Could these kits be built and sold at a profit ?

What would a bare assembled airframe sell for? (no engine or instruments and radios)
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Many finished 10's are selling for $100k and up, I saw one recently for $150k. People have looked at it repeatedly from the standpoint of building and selling for profit. Not only is it questionable from a legal standpoint (at least here in the US), but the profit on the sale at current market value works out to about $7 per labor hour. What is your time worth?
 
airguy said:
Many finished 10's are selling for $100k and up, I saw one recently for $150k. People have looked at it repeatedly from the standpoint of building and selling for profit. Not only is it questionable from a legal standpoint (at least here in the US), but the profit on the sale at current market value works out to about $7 per labor hour. What is your time worth?
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It is perfectly legal to build and sell E-AB aircraft. The aircraft sales web pages are full of them.
 
Tom-D said:
It is perfectly legal to build and sell E-AB aircraft. The aircraft sales web pages are full of them.
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Sure, if that's not your only reason to do it. Personally, I think a professional builder, such as yourself, building kits for the purpose of selling them on the open market, isn't in the spirit of the rule.

Now if you line a client up that wants you to build it for them from day 1, I don't have a problem with that.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Sure, if that's not your only reason to do it. Personally, I think a professional builder, such as yourself, building kits for the purpose of selling them on the open market, isn't in the spirit of the rule.

Now if you line a client up that wants you to build it for them from day 1, I don't have a problem with that.
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I think you got that backwards.....

<you could argue that> If he builds 10 RV's on his own, each is a learning experience, honing his craft, etc and he's just selling them to fund the next. If he's taking orders for airplanes....that's totally outside the realm of E-AB....
 
Tom-D said:
The up front cost of a RV 10 is 43,265 plus freight, and sales tax if applied.

What is your best guess as to total cost of completed aircraft with new engine, instruments, and radios?

Could these kits be built and sold at a profit ?

What would a bare assembled airframe sell for? (no engine or instruments and radios)
Click to expand...

Add in $50k for the engine/prop, $10k for paint, $5k for the interior, $5k for incidentals, and $25k for an "inexpensive" glass panel and you're at $135k. Many (most?) builders spend far more than that because they don't stop at $25k for the panel.

If you wanted to paint it yourself, went with a rebuilt engine, and a $12k panel (radio, transponder, engine monitor, and low end glass panel), you might build one for just over $100k. Finding a second hand kit and a mid-time engine could save you a few more bucks, and if you wanted a J-3 panel, you could cut your cost again. A flyable, day VFR airplane might be doable for $85k, but from a practical standpoint, a 200 mph traveling airplane *needs* to be day/night VFR with radios, transponder, and an autopilot.

Could you make money building them? Doubtful. The only way to make much money (IMO) would be to start a builder assist center where you're helping multiple builders and charging for space and time.
 
If a home builder had Charley Malot build a Superior kit engine to be installed in a E-AB aircraft, would that be legal?
 
Tom-D said:
If a home builder had Charley Malot build a Superior kit engine to be installed in a E-AB aircraft, would that be legal?
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Absolutely. Engines, panel, and paint are among the things that are legal to farm out.
 
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