Runway incursion and FSDO aftermath

U

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Highly embarrassed. Landed at an airport where the parallel runways are extremely close together. First time at the airport. I had looked at the chart and A/FD beforehand. After landing was told to hold short of parallel runway and contact ground. Freq was extremely congested. I saw the exit hold short lines for the runway I was on but didn't see the enter hold short lines for the parallel runway, which I was looking for. So I held short on the exit side of the parallel runway instead, and was actually holding short of a taxiway, even though I thought I was holding short of the runway.

After landing was given phone number for tower. Spoke to tower, apologized profusely, but they said a report had to be filed and I would be hearing from FSDO, etc. Immediately filed ASRS report.

Fast forward about 2 or 3 weeks later: received a call from FSDO inspector, explained what happened, was forthcoming etc, wrote a narrative for him. He closed the file in about 15 minutes and said he would just note it as "counseling given." No violation or enforcement action or suspension. Dodged a bullet there.
 
Was the PBOR ever mentioned by anyone? Did you request the tapes? Review them? talk to the principles in the chain?
 
docmirror said:
Was the PBOR ever mentioned by anyone? Did you request the tapes? Review them? talk to the principles in the chain?
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I was advised of my PBOR rights. Did not exercise them or request tapes. Spoke to no one but tower controller and safety inspector. Figured they had me dead to rights so my best bet was to cooperate. Glad I did.
 
If it was that confusing, even after checking the charts, I bet you weren't the first and won't be the last.
 
Matthew said:
If it was that confusing, even after checking the charts, I bet you weren't the first and won't be the last.
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The inspector said runway incursions at that airport were very common. I recommended updating the A/FD remarks to clarify that the exit and enter hold short lines are basically on top of each other. He said that sounded like a good idea.
 
Matthew said:
If it was that confusing, even after checking the charts, I bet you weren't the first and won't be the last.
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And also the reason for the ASRSto exist. Even though the markings are standardized, it can be a challenge. Also one of the reason I like geo-referenced SafeTaxi charts.
 
I am not clear on exactly what you did?

It sounds like you did not fully exit the active runway and you were on the runway side of the hold short lines for the runway you landed on?

If this is the case, what was the violation? You didn't violate your instructions you just didn't complete the taxi route. You could have asked for help (progressive taxi instruction)
 
Cruiser said:
I am not clear on exactly what you did?

It sounds like you did not fully exit the active runway and you were on the runway side of the hold short lines for the runway you landed on?

If this is the case, what was the violation? You didn't violate your instructions you just didn't complete the taxi route. You could have asked for help (progressive taxi instruction)
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No it was the opposite. I fully exited. But the hold short lines are so close together that by the time one exits the other hold short lines (for the ENTRANCE) to the parallel runway are behind the view of the pilot. So I crossed an active runway without ever realizing I was, and held short on the other (wrong) side of the parallel runway.
 
Unregistered said:
I was advised of my PBOR rights. Did not exercise them or request tapes. Spoke to no one but tower controller and safety inspector. Figured they had me dead to rights so my best bet was to cooperate. Glad I did.
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Thank you. Just wondering if it was mentioned along the way.

Could we know the identifier, since the rest of us may face this at some point? Better to know of a sticky wicket before striking the mallet to the ball.
 
Unregistered said:
No it was the opposite. I fully exited. But the hold short lines are so close together that by the time one exits the other hold short lines (for the ENTRANCE) to the parallel runway are behind the view of the pilot. So I crossed an active runway without ever realizing I was, and held short on the other (wrong) side of the parallel runway.
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Is there room to fit between them, or did you just not expect them to be so close together that you simply missed the 2nd one?

With enough ASRS reports at that airport, they might actually try to do something about it.
 
Unregistered said:
After landing was told to hold short of parallel runway and contact ground. Freq was extremely congested. I saw the exit hold short lines for the runway I was on but didn't see the enter hold short lines for the parallel runway, which I was looking for. So I held short on the exit side of the parallel runway instead, and was actually holding short of a taxiway, even though I thought I was holding short of the runway.
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You didn't clear the runway you landed on? Because the significance of the yellow dashed lines on your side of the solid yellow lines didn't register?

dtuuri
 
Matthew said:
Is there room to fit between them, or did you just not expect them to be so close together that you simply missed the 2nd one?

With enough ASRS reports at that airport, they might actually try to do something about it.
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I think the latter although the space between the hold short lines between the parallel runways is actually less than the full length of a GA plane, I think. I would post a google maps screenshot but not sure how I can do that, seems like a bit of a pain.
 
I think he was clear of his runway's markings and beyond the parallel runway's markings. Sounds like the markings were probably so close to each other, they were easy to miss. Clearly his isn't the first to do this, and likely not the last either.

This is the kind of thing that makes the discovery channel when a bad accident happens. It's been a problem for years and nobody did anything about it but check off some boxes on a piece of paper every time it happened.
 
dtuuri said:
You didn't clear the runway you landed on? Because the significance of the yellow dashed lines on your side of the solid yellow lines didn't register?

dtuuri
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No. Oy. Let me explain.

From left to right or whatever:
1. Runway xxL
2. Runway xxL hold short line
3. Runway xxR hold short line
4. Runway xxR
5. Runway xxR hold short line
6. Taxiway

I cleared one and two. I missed 3 so crossed 3 and 4 inadvertently. I held short at 5 thinking I was holding short at 3. Does this make sense?
 
Unregistered said:
No. Oy. Let me explain.

From left to right or whatever:
1. Runway xxL
2. Runway xxL hold short line
3. Runway xxR hold short line
4. Runway xxR
5. Runway xxR hold short line
6. Taxiway

I cleared one and two. I missed 3 so crossed 3 and 4 inadvertently. I held short at 5 thinking I was holding short at 3. Does this make sense?
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I see. Note to self, "Keep one eye on the parallel runway concrete in case the hold lines are missing or obscured."

dtuuri
 
So you didn't just cross the hold short bars and stop. You actually crossed the entire runway. That didn't look a little strange?
 
Unregistered said:
Highly embarrassed. Landed at an airport where the parallel runways are extremely close together. First time at the airport. I had looked at the chart and A/FD beforehand. After landing was told to hold short of parallel runway and contact ground. Freq was extremely congested. I saw the exit hold short lines for the runway I was on but didn't see the enter hold short lines for the parallel runway, which I was looking for. So I held short on the exit side of the parallel runway instead, and was actually holding short of a taxiway, even though I thought I was holding short of the runway.

After landing was given phone number for tower. Spoke to tower, apologized profusely, but they said a report had to be filed and I would be hearing from FSDO, etc. Immediately filed ASRS report.

Fast forward about 2 or 3 weeks later: received a call from FSDO inspector, explained what happened, was forthcoming etc, wrote a narrative for him. He closed the file in about 15 minutes and said he would just note it as "counseling given." No violation or enforcement action or suspension. Dodged a bullet there.
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Was there a hot spot noted for that airport at that location?
 
Sounds like he cleared his runway went right passed the hold short lines, crossed the parallel runway and held on the other side of that??? Yeah, that would definitely be a runway incursion.
 
Unregistered said:
But the hold short lines are so close together that by the time one exits the other hold short lines (for the ENTRANCE) to the parallel runway are behind the view of the pilot.
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Do you mean like this?

skitch.png


This is Flying Cloud, KFCM.
 
Can you give us the identifier of the airport and I will pull it up on a SafeTaxi diagram. Be easier to understand what happened.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
So you didn't just cross the hold short bars and stop. You actually crossed the entire runway. That didn't look a little strange?
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Correct. So you have to remember I didn't see the second set of hold short lines. And while in retrospect I'm sure that crossing the runway looked strange had I been properly looking out for that, I must have been focused on the ground in front of me looking for the hold short lines. All I can tell you is that I don't recall seeing the second set of hold short lines or the runway.

This was also the departure end of the runway, and it's a skinny (75ft) runway, so it's not like I was crossing in the middle of a runway at JFK or something.

I started this thread by saying it was my error. Clearly, it was. I'm just lucky that the consequences weren't more servere.
 
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Let's see if that works. I should have held short at 1. Didn't see 1 so held short at 2 instead.
 
Unregistered said:
Correct. So you have to remember I didn't see the second set of hold short lines. And while in retrospect I'm sure that crossing the runway looked strange had I been properly looking out for that, I must have been focused on the ground in front of me looking for the hold short lines. All I can tell you is that I don't recall seeing the second set of hold short lines or the runway.

This was also the departure end of the runway, and it's a skinny (75ft) runway, so it's not like I was crossing in the middle of a runway at JFK or something.

I started this thread by saying it was my error. Clearly, it was. I'm just lucky that the consequences weren't more servere.
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Note for retrospect, fixation involved.
 
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What isn't clear from the photo but is there is that there are standard runway signs (red background with numbers) in line with the hold bars as expected.
 

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I did the same thing down at KSEE a long time ago in a Citabria. I pitched the banner in the grass, then merged over and landed on 27R, which took me down near the end. I requested a back taxi to 35 so I could drive down to parking at the south end, but they made me exit at a taxiway cuz they had traffic coming on that runway. I exited and crossed the left, and as soon as I turned on the taxiway, they called me and asked where I was going. I said 'south hangars' and that's when I recall hearing 'hold short of 27 left'. DOH. He let me off, and said be more careful in the future.
 
Unregistered said:
Fixation, fatigue, lack of familiarity, etc.
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I can see fixation also being in my incident the other week. I was fixated on the speeds as I added flaps and trim, and they were reacting perfectly, I was still rather pleased with my approach at this point because the turbulence just stopped and I was on the numbers and it was shaping up to be a greaser that 310s are so good at, and it was, just not on the wheels.:D
 
flyingron said:
What isn't clear from the photo but is there is that there are standard runway signs (red background with numbers) in line with the hold bars as expected.
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What's not clear from the photos is that a light aircraft CAN fit between those lines. If you see them, obviously.

As for the "hot spot" question, there isn't one between the runways, but there is at the likely taxiway he held short at (D).
 
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MAKG1 said:
What's not clear from the photos is that a light aircraft CAN fit between those lines. If you see them, obviously.

As for the "hot spot" question, there isn't one between the runways, but there is at the likely taxiway he held short at (D).
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No. I held short on Taxiway E at Taxiway Y.
 
I haven't looked at the diagrams, just sat photos, but did you stop short at the exit side of the opposite runway? I would think I'd be even more confused seeing the hold line from that side.
 
in order for the FSDO to get notified in a situation like there there must have been a loss of separation - good thing that was all.
 
comanchepilot said:
in order for the FSDO to get notified in a situation like there there must have been a loss of separation - good thing that was all.
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Nope, no loss of separation. It was classified at Cat D runway incursion (lowest level), meaning "An incident that meets the definition of a runway incursion such as incorrect presence of a single vehicle/person/aircraft on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take-off of aircraft of aircraft but with no immediate safety consequences."

There are five categories:
Accident: An incursion that results in a collision. For the purposes of tracking incursion performance, an accident will be treated as a Category A runway incursion.

A: A serious incident in which a collision was narrowly avoided.

B: An incident in which separation decreases and there is a significant potential for collision, which may result in a time critical corrective/evasive response to avoid a collision.

C: An incident characterized by ample time and/or distance to avoid a collision.

And D, which was this one.
 
mkosmo said:
I haven't looked at the diagrams, just sat photos, but did you stop short at the exit side of the opposite runway? I would think I'd be even more confused seeing the hold line from that side.
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Yes. It didn't look right obviously, and I figured out my error but this all happened relatively quickly within about 30 seconds or so.
 
A PD is a PD. Doesn't have to be a loss of separation to get sent to FSDO. There's a slight chance the ATC QA guy might not send it to them but in this case that didn't happen.
 
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