Royally P.O.'d at an A&P/IA

[Tom-D]

I thought Yetti posted those pics?

That doesn't matter, A&Ps get the blame anyway.

 

[bnt83]

That doesn't matter, A&Ps get the blame anyway.

I'm doing a bit of a panel makeover and found:

Speaker soldered to a white wire (3 inches long)

Butt spliced to a green wire (3 inches long)

A quick disconnect to another green (3 feet long)

Butt spliced to a white/green stripe (3 feet long)

Butt spliced to a white/blue stripe (2 feet long)

Finally terminates into the audio panel connector.

 

[wsuffa]

I'm doing a bit of a panel makeover and found:

Speaker soldered to a white wire (3 inches long)

Butt spliced to a green wire (3 inches long)

A quick disconnect to another green (3 feet long)

Butt spliced to a white/green stripe (3 feet long)

Butt spliced to a white/blue stripe (2 feet long)

Finally terminates into the audio panel connector.

I had an avionics shop do something similar when first installing a Garmin 430. They then mashed the pins trying to insert it into the tray. Costing more time, money and aggravation later. And one that committed theft when the airplane was in for some panel work by swapping out the remote gyro in the back of the plane with a "loser" that had to be rebuilt later for $1000+.

I've also had some great shops work on the plane.

Rule of thumb is to know everything you can about your plane, and to instruct the shop to not recowl it until you've done a careful inspection after maintenance.

 

[N801BH]

I had an avionics shop do something similar when first installing a Garmin 430. They then mashed the pins trying to insert it into the tray. Costing more time, money and aggravation later. And one that committed theft when the airplane was in for some panel work by swapping out the remote gyro in the back of the plane with a "loser" that had to be rebuilt later for $1000+.

I've also had some great shops work on the plane.

Rule of thumb is to know everything you can about your plane, and to instruct the shop to not recowl it until you've done a careful inspection after maintenance.

..

I have heard horror stories about (less then honest) repair shops..

Building and maintaining an experimental and holding a repairmens cert for it is priceless...

 

[wsuffa]

..

I have heard horror stories about (less then honest) repair shops..

Building and maintaining an experimental and holding a repairmens cert for it is priceless...

Yep. If I own again, it will most likely be an EAB.

The worst part of the gyro issue was that it "lost it" on an IFR takeoff from Durango. Not a great area for a gyro to go TU. It did stabilize once we climbed, but that would have been something impossible to prove & hold the shop accountable later. We discovered the switch when we compared serial numbers and dates of manufacture later.

 

[N801BH]

Yep. If I own again, it will most likely be an EAB.

The worst part of the gyro issue was that it "lost it" on an IFR takeoff from Durango. Not a great area for a gyro to go TU. It did stabilize once we climbed, but that would have been something impossible to prove & hold the shop accountable later. We discovered the switch when we compared serial numbers and dates of manufacture later.

In my book, that would be damn close to a attempted murder charge from a prosecuting attorney...

 

[mkosmo]

In my book, that would be damn close to a attempted murder charge from a prosecuting attorney...

Negligent manslaughter at worst... But you know they'd just get civil fines from the FAA for failure to document it if it even came to that lol

 

[kontiki]

I believe with a lot of old airplane, new owner stories the blame is shared between mechanics and the string of owners. Most owners understand very little about aircraft configuration management, which is half of the story. At an airline there is usually an engineering department, records departments and a technical publications department devoted to the function. That's what "airworthiness" is too; being in the approved configuration.

 

[Tom-D]

I'm doing a bit of a panel makeover and found:

Speaker soldered to a white wire (3 inches long)

Butt spliced to a green wire (3 inches long)

A quick disconnect to another green (3 feet long)

Butt spliced to a white/green stripe (3 feet long)

Butt spliced to a white/blue stripe (2 feet long)

Finally terminates into the audio panel connector.

So you give all A&Ps a bad name for a avionics shop's F---up.

 

[N801BH]

So you give all A&Ps a bad name for a avionics shop's F---up.

Interesting....

I thought an A&P can build harnesses??

 

[Tom-D]

Interesting....

I thought an A&P can build harnesses??

They can, but most won't because they do not want the liability of smoking the avionics.

And your speaker wire is a prime example of what I find in most old aircraft. That is why I simply remove all of it and rewire, using new teflon coated wire and C/B's

 

[bnt83]

They can, but most won't because they do not want the liability of smoking the avionics.

And your speaker wire is a prime example of what I find in most old aircraft. That is why I simply remove all of it and rewire, using new teflon coated wire and C/B's

Teflon or Tefzel?

Avionics really aren't that difficult. Does take reading and I draw my own interconnect drawings

 

[yetti]

How did this get in the system if not by addition?

Best guess is rag stuffed in one of the fuel lines to keep dirt out. Second guess would be parts of a diaphragm of a mechanical fuel pump. The fuel screens are listed on the Annual / 100 hour inspection.

Fuel Servo Denver Pilot. Used on fuel injected lycomings. works on differential of air pressure. No idea why it is called a servo.

Brake reservoir had a 3/8 vs. 1/4 hose on it. So all the fluid leaked out and got on the carpet.

 

[GlennAB1]

I'm doing a bit of a panel makeover and found:

Speaker soldered to a white wire (3 inches long)

Butt spliced to a green wire (3 inches long)

A quick disconnect to another green (3 feet long)

Butt spliced to a white/green stripe (3 feet long)

Butt spliced to a white/blue stripe (2 feet long)

Finally terminates into the audio panel connector.

And not a speck of credit for recycling.

 

[Tom-D]

Teflon or Tefzel?

Avionics really aren't that difficult. Does take reading and I draw my own interconnect drawings

OK customer has 15k GPS moving map, coupled to the Autopilot, plus 2 new solid state Coms, and an audio panel to install, Just trays and racks, you Screw it up, you get to buy new. Do you want the job? You stand to make 2000 for the instal. risk doesn't play good odds.

 

[kyleb]

OK customer has 15k GPS moving map, coupled to the Autopilot, plus 2 new solid state Coms, and an audio panel to install, Just trays and racks, you Screw it up, you get to buy new. Do you want the job? You stand to make 2000 for the instal. risk doesn't play good odds.

...Customer has $60K Bonanza airframe with Continental motor which needs rebuilt - parts and machine work costs of $20k. Screw it up, the owner and his family die. You stand to make $5k on the job...

 

[Tom-D]

..

I have heard horror stories about (less then honest) repair shops..

Building and maintaining an experimental and holding a repairmens cert for it is priceless...

But when you hurt anyone with it, your the deep pocket. No lawyer is going to pass you by to get to Cessna or Piper.

 

[GlennAB1]

...Customer has $60K Bonanza airframe with Continental motor which needs rebuilt - parts and machine work costs of $20k. Screw it up, the owner and his family die. You stand to make $5k on the job...

Or you do the work, make $5k, the owner does some undocumented maintenance, they all die, and you blamed.

 

[Tom-D]

...Customer has $60K Bonanza airframe with Continental motor which needs rebuilt - parts and machine work costs of $20k. Screw it up, the owner and his family die. You stand to make $5k on the job...

That's absolutely correct.. choose your jobs and customers carefully.

My old PMI once told me, your only and best insurance is doing the job correctly, make the entry correctly, because I can't defend you to my supervisor when either is wrong. But don't worry about me and the FAA we can only take your certificate, the civil lawyer can take your house.

and this month I found out how right he was.

 

[Tom-D]

Or you do the work, make $5k, the owner does some undocumented maintenance, they all die, and the mechanic gets blamed.

Not always. Do the job correctly, document it correctly, they can't place blame where it does not belong.

 

[weirdjim]

ive seen a whole lot more certificated aircraft maintained by a properly certificated technicians that were in terrible shape and should not be flying than them homebuilt things that were built by amateurs.

bob

The Ark was built by amateurs, the Titanic was built by "professionals".

 

[petrolero]

Yeah mechanics never make mistakes, including the one who left his plastic oil funnel to melt on top of my cylinders. He missed it. I missed it too. Plastic could have dripped on my turbo and caused who knows what. **** happens. I can't check everything they do, but I have learned the hard way to check what I can and ask probing questions about the stuff I can't. They catch a lot of things that I miss also. No one is perfect but there are some things you see that just make you wonder what a guy was thinking.

 

[kmead]

I do anywhere from 1 to 2 prebuy son a week. I hate to say but the quality of the maintenance being done by a large number of shops in the world is horrible. All owners should try to learn as much about the maintenance needs of their aircraft.

 

[Bill]

Most new buyers won't look, and won't pay the price when they do accidentally find one.

Paid a good bit to inspect the 1st two candidates and sent them away after finding the aircraft not as represented. Third plane was the charm, but yes, we did pay a good amount to check out all three.

 

[steingar]

I found a shop light under my passenger rudder pedals once after annuals. I was wondering why I couldn't make that right turn. Couldn't see the damn thing during my preflight.

Good news is now I have a really nice shop light in my garage at home.

 

[N801BH]

I found a shop light under my passenger rudder pedals once after annuals. I was wondering why I couldn't make that right turn. Couldn't see the damn thing during my preflight.

Good news is now I have a really nice shop light in my garage at home.

Ya ever noticed how aircraft mechanics NEVER engrave their names on their tools.... .....

 

[bluerooster]

Something odd about this. There are specific areas where PA28's are prone to corrosion, seat tracks ain't one of them.

Exactly. And the usuall areas are nice and clean.

 

[bluerooster]

Good Lord! I hadn't expected 5 pages in such a short time.

Well, I removed the worst of the seat rails today, and inspected the skin underneath. I havn't bothered to order the new rails yet, as I didn't know if I needed to scrap the airplane or not. There are 44 rivits that old the rail in, and 4 others that need to be removed in order to get to one of them.
After I got all but the last one punched out, I decided to take a pic.

What I found under the rail, after removal was both surprizing, and relieving. The skin is in good shape. So I have new rails comming.

No Pizz tubes. Mabe that's the reason?
Now prior to purchase, I had inspected all the likely areas for corrosion, and found none, Spar carry through looks good, rear spar attach points look good, Even the area around the battery looked better than most. Had no reason at that time to remove seats, and pull out the carpet.

I've owned, and mantained several Cherokees in the past, and have a pretty good idea about what to look for. And seat tracks are pretty far down on the list.

 

[N801BH]

Good Lord! I hadn't expected 5 pages in such a short time.

Well, I removed the worst of the seat rails today, and inspected the skin underneath. I havn't bothered to order the new rails yet, as I didn't know if I needed to scrap the airplane or not. There are 44 rivits that old the rail in, and 4 others that need to be removed in order to get to one of them.
After I got all but the last one punched out, I decided to take a pic.

What I found under the rail, after removal was both surprizing, and relieving. The skin is in good shape. So I have new rails comming.

No Pizz tubes. Mabe that's the reason?
Now prior to purchase, I had inspected all the likely areas for corrosion, and found none, Spar carry through looks good, rear spar attach points look good, Even the area around the battery looked better than most. Had no reason at that time to remove seats, and pull out the carpet.

I've owned, and mantained several Cherokees in the past, and have a pretty good idea about what to look for. And seat tracks are pretty far down on the list.

Pic # 4...... HOLY siht.....

 

[GlennAB1]

That's ate up. Exfoliation. Alloy going back to ore state...

 

[bluerooster]

Now for the $10 question. What causes intergranular corrosion, which, if left un-checked, leads to exfoliation?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

....and why can an A&P "not" overhaul an internally supercharged engine?

 

[GlennAB1]

Now for the $10 question. What causes intergranular corrosion, which, if left un-checked, leads to exfoliation?

Anyone can look up intergranular corrosion, but, as I recall there's not a single simple answer. It can be due it improper heat treat or alloy composition and is triggered by electrochemical attack, Maybe. I winged that.

 

[GlennAB1]

....and why can an A&P "not" overhaul an internally supercharged engine?

You have to take manufacturers requirements into account, but, as I understand the FAR's, an A&P mechanic can do anything he has been properly trained and has tooling to do. Can an A&P assemble RB211 modules? Not if he isn't trained and doesn't have tooling. Can an A&P mechanic perform a JT8-D PS4/Drain boss UT inspection? Only if he's been trained by Pratt & Whitney and has the proper tooling.

 

[GlennAB1]

Ya ever noticed how aircraft mechanics NEVER engrave their names on their tools.... .....

Good luck selling them, or getting a decent amount, if you engrave them.

 

[bnt83]

Good Lord! I hadn't expected 5 pages in such a short time.

Well, I removed the worst of the seat rails today, and inspected the skin underneath. I havn't bothered to order the new rails yet, as I didn't know if I needed to scrap the airplane or not. There are 44 rivits that old the rail in, and 4 others that need to be removed in order to get to one of them.
After I got all but the last one punched out, I decided to take a pic.

What I found under the rail, after removal was both surprizing, and relieving. The skin is in good shape. So I have new rails comming.

No Pizz tubes. Mabe that's the reason?
Now prior to purchase, I had inspected all the likely areas for corrosion, and found none, Spar carry through looks good, rear spar attach points look good, Even the area around the battery looked better than most. Had no reason at that time to remove seats, and pull out the carpet.

I've owned, and mantained several Cherokees in the past, and have a pretty good idea about what to look for. And seat tracks are pretty far down on the list.

Ha! I saw corrosion like that on a 2008 jet's aileron sector (where the fuselage cables meet the wing cables). Corroded out just that bad at each hi-lok where the cable horn is attached to the tube/bearing assembly. It was a whopping 7 years old and it looked like it was scrap 2 years ago.

 

[N801BH]

Good luck selling them, or getting a decent amount, if you engrave them.

Ha.......


Virtually every A&P and IA I know has told me ...the very first thing they teach ( quietly suggest) in A&P school is to NEVER put your Id on any tool in case one gets left in a plane and causes a crash......

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Good luck selling them, or getting a decent amount, if you engrave them.

no worries....HF tools don't bring much.

 

[GlennAB1]

Ha.......


Virtually every A&P and IA I know has told me ...the very first thing they teach ( quietly suggest) in A&P school is to NEVER put your Id on any tool in case one gets left in a plane and causes a crash......

I'm a product of the Air Force. Tools were marked and accounted for. Some of my tools are marked, I quit when I found out no one else (hardly) marked theirs. I have a fine mix of Snap-On, Mac, and Craftsman, vintage Craftsman are good tools. Thank you.

 

[N801BH]

I'm a product of the Air Force. Tools were marked and accounted for. Some of my tools are marked, I quit when I found out no one else (hardly) marked theres. I have a fine mix of Snap-On, Mac, and Craftsman, vintage Craftsman are good tools. Thank you.

Now you have changed your story on why not to mark them....