Royally P.O.'d at an A&P/IA

[Tom-D]

Something odd about this. There are specific areas where PA28's are prone to corrosion, seat tracks ain't one of them.

Unless they have Pi$$ tubes installed.

 

[Tom-D]

Those people recovered the costs of their corrosion repair? Name me a PA-28 or any common plane where that's possible... Do you think that when someone pays $40k for a PA-28 in a $40k corrosion free market, that when they spend $12,000 to repair that corrosion, now the plane is suddenly worth $52,000 because when people look in a log book and see a bunch of corrosion repair and skins drilled and replaced they "OOOO Look! It already needed a bunch of corrosion repairs, I'll pay extra for this one!" Are you ****ing kidding me? Get the **** real, NOBODY EXCEPT THE REPAIR STATION MAKES MONEY OFF CORROSION REPAIR. Even good corrosion repairs detract from the value of your aircraft, just not as much as if you didn't do them. The entire cost is unrecoverable +.

IOWs you'd throw away a 30k aircraft for a $2000 repair.

 

[James331]

I don't generally tell the buyer whether to buy the plane or not. I give them a list of things that I see are wrong now and things that I reasonably anticipate may cost them money in the next few years. If they ask me whether I would purchase it, then I will offer that opinion. But much of what I find that may be a problem in the future comes down to the buyer's assessment of risk and value of money. This often involves an engine that has been sitting too long. I have had owners roll the bones where I would not have done so, but maybe they have more spare money than I do.

That is why I don't usually opine on value unless specifically asked to do a market comparison with what is available.

Come on.

If you're doing a prebuy with a low time guy, or someone who isn't in the industry, go over EVERYTHING, logs, ADs, inspection panels, test flight against book numbers, as well as verifying all instruments work as advertised, go over what he is paying for the plane and let him know what he's looking at compared to the market.

"Joe, she's as advertised and it probably worth a little more than you're paying, good find!"

Or

"Man Joe, sorry you wasted your money, this thing is MAYBE worth 10k, no way on earth I would give him 40k for it, getting this plane up to standard you'd probably pay off my mortgage by the time we had her straight".

If you're too weak to let someone FULLY know where they stand, please don't offer to do prebuys.

 

[Tom-D]

Come on.

If you're doing a prebuy with a low time guy, or someone who isn't in the industry, go over EVERYTHING, logs, ADs, inspection panels, test flight against book numbers, as well as verifying all instruments work as advertised, go over what he is paying for the plane and let him know what he's looking at compared to the market.

"Joe, she's as advertised and it probably worth a little more than you're paying, good find!"

Or

"Man Joe, sorry you wasted your money, this thing is MAYBE worth 10k, no way on earth I would give him 40k for it, getting this plane up to standard you'd probably pay off my mortgage by the time we had her straight".

If you're too weak to let someone FULLY know where they stand, please don't offer to do prebuys.

Most A&Ps could care less what you are paying for the aircraft. they only care if you are going to pay them for fixing what they find. thus the long list of discrepancies.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Most A&Ps could care less what you are paying for the aircraft. they only care if you are going to pay them for fixing what they find. thus the long list of discrepancies.

Which is another reason why it helps to find an independent expert in the type. They know what to look for and problem areas for the type and they get paid a set rate regardless of how long the list is.

 

[ahkahn]

Sorry about your situation. My purchase was a similar situation, but I actually had a lot of protections on the purchase when I bought mine last year. Basically I elected to do an annual (rather than a pre-buy), and offered to pay for the annual expense if I purchased the aircraft. Within a day of opening up the plane, my mechanic called me, told me he is buttoning it back up, and return it to the seller. The seller (long and short of it) had been screwed for a number of years on his annuals... basically they were all paper and he didn't know it (yes, this is true). Rather than taking it back, he authorized MY mechanic to fix the entire plane. I paid for the annual cost (around $1800) and he paid the rest... about $16,000. Yes, total it was an $18,000 annual on a PA-32R. Major corrosion that involved reskinning, all new belly hat rails, and more. It was ugly.

I wish you luck.

 

[Caramon13]

The plane I almost bought before the one I own now went through a pretty thorough pre-buy. The owner thought it was all fine and that he was maintaining it properly by flying it every other year for a short amount of time and keeping it tied down in a high humidity area.

Long story short, the A&P that did the pre-buy found over 10K worth of repairs, that's also excluding what it would take to re-paint the plane (looked horrible). Some of the items included corrosion, particularly on the engine mounts. Told the owner and he refused to fix any of it, so I walked.

End of the day I was out the pre-buy cost but man, saved myself a ton of maintenance costs. Sorry to hear about your situation, that definitely sucks, I hope you are able to get through it!

 

[SkyDog58]

Which is another reason why it helps to find an independent expert in the type. They know what to look for and problem areas for the type and they get paid a set rate regardless of how long the list is.

Expert on type is always a good idea. Even as an A&P/IA, I would consult with a type expert even if I was doing a pre-buy myself. There are numerous makes/models that I have never touched thus I would seek out the advice.

The set rate only covers the inspection, not the repairs. I believe Tom was commenting about the repairs in regards to the long list.

 

[Tom-D]

Which is another reason why it helps to find an independent expert in the type. They know what to look for and problem areas for the type and they get paid a set rate regardless of how long the list is.

Amen to that. Don't expect me to inspect your grummie.

 

[GlennAB1]

Expert on type is always a good idea. Even as an A&P/IA, I would consult with a type expert even if I was doing a pre-buy myself. There are numerous makes/models that I have never touched thus I would seek out the advice.

Yeah, except that with nearly 30 years aircraft inspection experience, I know that airplanes are airplanes and if one's completely opened up I'm confident I or any other experienced inspector could do a thorough inspection.

 

[James331]

Most A&Ps could care less what you are paying for the aircraft. they only care if you are going to pay them for fixing what they find. thus the long list of discrepancies.

It's a shame, that's the difference between a professional and a shade tree mechanic.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The flight school at the FBO that I did maint at (plus trained at) bought an Archer and brought it in to get a fresh 100hr, we open it up, there are wing attach bolts missing. Ray had flown it in, he **** when we showed him.

This is why you buy type certificated aircraft that are maintained by properly certificated technicians and not some homebuilt thing that were built and maintained by some amateur.

 

[bnt83]

Id say probably 10% of the airplanes out there 45 years or older doesn't need about a $1000 in labor replacing wiring. That is, anything that is up front and/or passes through the firewall.

The costs to do that on a twin would likely be triple.


Some of these things still have the original engine controls, that bind and are hard to move.

 

[denverpilot]

Most A&Ps could care less what you are paying for the aircraft. they only care if you are going to pay them for fixing what they find. thus the long list of discrepancies.

I've worked with a lot of mechanics over the years, and never met any that are that big of an ass. I'm sure they're out there, but don't be too mean to ALL of your brethren, Tom. Most are genuinely interested in their customer's airplanes and whatnot.

 

[taters]

Reading this thread makes me not miss owning !

 

[steingar]

Reading this thread makes me not miss owning !

Your loss. I have to admit, my annual will be a bit suspenseful. I didn't do everything I wanted for the pre buy (everything I wanted would have included about 3 days worth of pre-buy at a Mooney Service Center). Everything I could see or find looked clean as a whistle. I'm hoping the stuff I didn't find is likewise, and if not I get burned hard.

I tend to doubt it though. I know where the owner and his mechanic live, and both swore up and down the the airplane was in top shape.

Still, always better to have your mechanic do the pre buy on the aircraft. I was working a trade, which complicates matters (though was still completely and utterly worth it!).

Thing is, the aviation world is pretty small. Someone gets burned, word gets around. I think most folks represent things pretty realistically.

 

[N801BH]

Your loss. I have to admit, my annual will be a bit suspenseful. I didn't do everything I wanted for the pre buy (everything I wanted would have included about 3 days worth of pre-buy at a Mooney Service Center). Everything I could see or find looked clean as a whistle. I'm hoping the stuff I didn't find is likewise, and if not I get burned hard.

I tend to doubt it though. I know where the owner and his mechanic live, and both swore up and down the the airplane was in top shape.

Still, always better to have your mechanic do the pre buy on the aircraft. I was working a trade, which complicates matters (though was still completely and utterly worth it!).

Thing is, the aviation world is pretty small. Someone gets burned, word gets around. I think most folks represent things pretty realistically.

Time to rehash the Barron Thomas thread..........

 

[Tom-D]

I've worked with a lot of mechanics over the years, and never met any that are that big of an ass. I'm sure they're out there, but don't be too mean to ALL of your brethren, Tom. Most are genuinely interested in their customer's airplanes and whatnot.

that's true of all the A&Ps that freelance, the FBO managers, not so much.

 

[James331]

Time to rehash the Barron Thomas thread..........

Lies of commission or omission, one would be a fool to presume the aircraft was anything other than a pile of crap, or the owner and his A&P are anything other than incompetent low lifes.

Guilty until proven innocent, and even than there is airworthy and there is the market, airworthy isn't even close to good enough.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Something odd about this. There are specific areas where PA28's are prone to corrosion, seat tracks ain't one of them.

Just spill some Coke or Pepsi and then don't clean it up. Found a badly corroded floor in a 210 from that. I have found it under seat rails in other airplanes, too. Those drinks have phosphoric acid in them.

 

[Clark1961]

Just spill some Coke or Pepsi and then don't clean it up. Found a badly corroded floor in a 210 from that. I have found it under seat rails in other airplanes, too. Those drinks have phosphoric acid in them.

This is why mixers shouldn't be carried in small aircraft. Neat, water, or rocks is fine but ditch the Coke.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

ditch the Coke.

You will never make the big bucks if you don't make the delivery.

 

[Clark1961]

You will never make the big bucks if you don't make the delivery.

They were on to me...

 

[unsafervguy]

This is why you buy type certificated aircraft that are maintained by properly certificated technicians and not some homebuilt thing that were built and maintained by some amateur.

ive seen a whole lot more certificated aircraft maintained by a properly certificated technicians that were in terrible shape and should not be flying than them homebuilt things that were built by amateurs.

bob

 

[N801BH]

ive seen a whole lot more certificated aircraft maintained by a properly certificated technicians that were in terrible shape and should not be flying than them homebuilt things that were built by amateurs.

bob

Agreed...

In fact, I cannot remember the last time I saw a homebuilt that was scary.. Most are way better built then factory stuff.. IMHO..

 

[Gsxrpilot]

I'm two annuals in and ownership has been good to me. I had my 1964 Mooney gone over very thoroughly by arguably the best Mooney specialist in the country. $6000 of owner money later, I bought the plane in nearly perfect condition. I'm through two annuals and am still in love.

 

[yetti]

This is why you buy type certificated aircraft that are maintained by properly certificated technicians and not some homebuilt thing that were built and maintained by some amateur.

Your faith in the A&P certified mechanic is greatly over rated. There are good ones and there are ones that should not have the certificate

 

[PPC1052]

This is why you buy type certificated aircraft that are maintained by properly certificated technicians and not some homebuilt thing that were built and maintained by some amateur.

ive seen a whole lot more certificated aircraft maintained by a properly certificated technicians that were in terrible shape and should not be flying than them homebuilt things that were built by amateurs.

bob

Your faith in the A&P certified mechanic is greatly over rated. There are good ones and there are ones that should not have the certificate

My sarcasm detector was a bit off this morning, too. It took me two read-throughs to pick it up.

 

[Anthony]

The two planes I have bought had an annual inspection done by MY MECHANIC prior to purchase. It is worth it IMHO.

 

[steingar]

Time to rehash the Barron Thomas thread..........

I live thousands of miles away from where he did his schtick and knew all about him within a month after I started flying. Like I said, word gets around.

 

[Tom-D]

This thread is typical of the owners here bashing the A&P.

But they never consider the A&P's opinion of them may not be all that high either.

 

[GlennAB1]

You're a low life grease monkey, till they need ya... and they expect ya to work for peanuts. LOL I do have to give credit to home builders, though, they do more "structures" than some mechanics do their whole life. But, for every fine example you see at an a fly in or airshow, how many bad ones are hidden from public sight or never finished at all?

 

[yetti]

This thread is typical of the owners here bashing the A&P.

But they never consider the A&P's opinion of them may not be all that high either.

Things that passed an annual

What came out of the servo screen

Can we all agree that channel locks on the threads on the oil cooler lines is always a bad idea

A recent redo of the fuel pump shows that the channel locks were a common practice.

If pilots were not around to break stuff A&Ps would not have any work.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

job security bro.....

 

[Tom-D]

job security bro.....

Like I've said many times before, I love owner maintenance, they will cheap it out and reuse tubes on their tire changes, forget to use a filter when adding fluids and use the wrong tool for the job.

 

[denverpilot]

Like I've said many times before, I love owner maintenance, they will cheap it out and reuse tubes on their tire changes, forget to use a filter when adding fluids and use the wrong tool for the job.

Filtering fluids?

Only fluids I regularly add are fuel and oil. Don't really see a need for a filter for either. I guess if I was pumping the gas from a 55 gallon drum in the middle of nowhere, I'd probably have a filter inline with the hand pump.

I suppose the fuel truck has one also. And the self-serve pump. Not that I'd have any say in when they get changed. Or hell, if they even have a cartridge in them. FBO probably isn't going to be too impressed if I ask to unscrew them and look. LOL.

I guess I could top off brake fluid, but if it's low I think I'd rather pay someone to find out why. Brake line leaks tend to lead to bigger problems at the next landing. Be nice to know if we're pumping it overboard or if it's going into the already trashed carpet and under it up around the master cylinder too.

No other "fluids" on board other than the stuff in the "whiskey" compass, that I'm aware of. Oh. Right. Also battery water if you have that sort of battery. That'd be distilled water so no filter needs there either.

Genuinely curious. What fluids normally used in aircraft, need filtering when adding them?

 

[Tom-D]

Genuinely curious. What fluids normally used in aircraft, need filtering when adding them?

How did this get in the system if not by addition?

 

[denverpilot]

How did this get in the system if not by addition?

You said it was found in a servo screen. I have no idea what kind of servo or what it's powered by.

Assuming it's hydraulic if you say it has some sort of fluid.

Not going to play 20 questions about it.

Asked a question, got no answer.

Moving on.

Not planning on adding any "mystery servo fluid" to my airplane so obviously not going to be much of a concern.

 

[GlennAB1]

I thought Yetti posted those pics?

 

[mkosmo]

Your faith in the A&P certified mechanic is greatly over rated. There are good ones and there are ones that should not have the certificate

That's universally true in any realm that requires any kind of certification or credentials, though.