Rotorx (rotorway) - What's it's mission?

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Brad W

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I've always wanted to fly helicopters, even since before my 1st discovery flight.... but of course it's always about money, right?

Anyway, I've been daydreaming a lot lately about trying to retire in a few more years and getting a kit project. I keep circling back to something like an RV 14 maybe....

But I found myself in a youtube rat hole yesterday evening watching videos about the little rotorway helicopters.

The new company, rotorx's web site stinks.....not much info there regarding cruise speeds, range, fuel burn, payload, etc...

Anyway, I got to thinking about the mission for that aircraft...what is it?
Seems like it would be a bit loud and shakey to be much of a cross country traveler...not to mention probably limited capability in weather (IFR, etc..)
Doesn't seem like an autopilot is likely in that thing, etc...

so what's it for?
Just a local fair weather flyer to cover the same ground over and over?
Better if you live in an area where there's lots of off airport opportunities (camping, exploring, whatever)?​

I don't know how many of you here are rotorcraft pilots, but from your perspective how do you see it?
 
It's a toy, just like an ultralight... or a lot of other aircraft.
 
FWIW, my understanding, based on what I was told by someone who was a flight test engineer for Bell, is that there is about a 0% margin for error in the Rotorway when the engine decides to stop making noise due to lack of inertia in the rotors.
 
Brad W said:
but from your perspective how do you see it?
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From a general perspective it depends specifically on the person and specific category: ultralight vs E/AB helicopter. However, there are a number of other brands available in these 2 categories that in my opinion are much better than a RotorWay like Helicycle, Mosquito, Safari. But stay away from the Mini500s. In my experience, the main "mission" people buy on the E/AB side is to obtain their rotorcraft rating. From there some people pursue a rotor career and others upgrade to a TC'd helicopter as a second aircraft, however, there are also a number of people who tire of the fun and sell them at some point. On the ultralight side its really just another toy in the collection.

As to your specific questions its definitely a fair weather flyer but can be a blast for the right person. As to camping, etc. most of these have very limited useable weights which do not fit into that type of exploration unless you travel solo in a 2 place and only pack a tarp and a toothbrush.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
is that there is about a 0% margin for error in the Rotorway when the engine decides to stop making noise due to lack of inertia in the rotors.
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FYI: You'll find all light inertia main rotor blade systems have a minimal "margin for error" equal to the RotorWay. Even the larger turbine helicopters have this problem with light blades but you get a few more seconds to react. However, if the blade RPMs decay below a certain percent you go into lawn dart mode with no recovery possible in most cases regardless of altitude. For example, in a R22 you have less than 2 seconds to lower the collective once there is a drivetrain failure and given it takes the average human 2-4 seconds to react to a sudden change puts you in negative MoE territory. This is why Robbie pilots are taught to dump the collective immediately at any sign of problem which can lead into other issues. But technically this is no different than airplanes with very high stall speeds as they need the higher forward "inertia" to make lift.
 
Bell206 said:
From a general perspective it depends specifically on the person and specific category: ultralight vs E/AB helicopter. However, there are a number of other brands available in these 2 categories that in my opinion are much better than a RotorWay like Helicycle, Mosquito, Safari. But stay away from the Mini500s. In my experience, the main "mission" people buy on the E/AB side is to obtain their rotorcraft rating. From there some people pursue a rotor career and others upgrade to a TC'd helicopter as a second aircraft, however, there are also a number of people who tire of the fun and sell them at some point. On the ultralight side its really just another toy in the collection.

As to your specific questions its definitely a fair weather flyer but can be a blast for the right person. As to camping, etc. most of these have very limited useable weights which do not fit into that type of exploration unless you travel solo in a 2 place and only pack a tarp and a toothbrush.


FYI: You'll find all light inertia main rotor blade systems have a minimal "margin for error" equal to the RotorWay. Even the larger turbine helicopters have this problem with light blades but you get a few more seconds to react. However, if the blade RPMs decay below a certain percent you go into lawn dart mode with no recovery possible in most cases regardless of altitude. For example, in a R22 you have less than 2 seconds to lower the collective once there is a drivetrain failure and given it takes the average human 2-4 seconds to react to a sudden change puts you in negative MoE territory. This is why Robbie pilots are taught to dump the collective immediately at any sign of problem which can lead into other issues. But technically this is no different than airplanes with very high stall speeds as they need the higher forward "inertia" to make lift.
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Actually in the sim today and we’ll intentionally put a couple second delay to react on a power failure. Nr will get uncomfortably close to the bottom (85%). TR failure at a hover, generally we’ll let a complete rotation occur before we chop the throttle to simulate a “human factors” delay. But yeah, in a low inertia rotor, she’ll bleed quick if you delay reaction to eng out. ;)
 
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Velocity173 said:
she’ll bleed quick if you delay reaction to eng out.
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Back in the day, when B206s and AS350Ds were flying by the 100s in the GOM, the "normal" upgrade was from 206 to 350. At the same time the 350Ds were notoriously referred to as Falling Stars due to a few things notably the ever-reliable Lycoming LTS 101 engine. You could always pick out a recent upgrade pilot when you could hear the 350 low rotor Renault truck horn blaring in the background as he was transmitting his mayday calls. As I recall those narrow 350D model blades were even lighter than your 407 blades.
 
A slow aircraft like most rotorcraft just has a smaller circle of fun than a fast fixed wing aircraft.

I have flown the 21 nautical mile flight from Santa Maria, CA (SMX) to San Luis Obispo, CA (SBP) many times in my Experimental Gyroplane (rotorcraft).

I never fly direct and typically make it a 45 nautical mile flight along the beach or through the Huasna Valley and over Lake Lopez.

It is always an adventure and a visual delight.

Most of my flights are less than 200 nautical miles round trip.

In 2,500 hours of flying I have not run out of things to see and do and have made a lot of friends.
 

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that 2 second thing sure is eye opening....but then it's probably somewhat theoretical. Out of all the engine failures how many were instantaneous seizures? More often I recon it's a power loss, or a stumble...some sort of warning. Running out of gas maybe...but even then there's probably usually a burp first.....
 
Brad W said:
that 2 second thing sure is eye opening....but then it's probably somewhat theoretical.
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Not really theoretical. Robinson actually measured it and put it in print. Originally the R22 had about 1 second worth of "spin", i.e., inertia in the blade system to maintain a specific RPM range, in the blade rotation when drive was stopped or reduced to the main rotor. So they added some tip weights to the blades and got that up to 1.6 or 1.8 seconds. The R44 with heavier blades has somewhere around 4 or 5 seconds of inertia. But as mentioned before if take off in a 172 and lose an engine but don't push your nose over how many seconds do you think it would take to stall? Same physics just different dynamics.
Brad W said:
Out of all the engine failures how many were instantaneous seizures?
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In general terms, its not so much "seizures" as the MR to engine drive has a clutch which will automatically disengage the engine allowing the MR to freely spin on its own. So as you mentioned it could be a simple decel which tends to be typical engine failure. The only thing controlling the rate of that spin is the positioning of the blades by the pilot via the collective and cyclic controls. No different than how a pilot controls the unpowered decent in an airplane. To look at it another way, you actually have more options in a helicopter than an airplane when the motor quits because you have a vertical component the airplane does not.
 
I have thought about a small helicopter.

Pretty sure I could do as good as Hogg on my first lesson...
 
Bell206 said:
But as mentioned before if take off in a 172 and lose an engine but don't push your nose over how many seconds do you think it would take to stall? Same physics just different dynamics.
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The Cessna will pretty much nose over itself as speed decays and not stall as long as you don't try to hold the nose up or have it trimmed way up.
 
The smaller the helicopter, the more "twitchier" it will be. One way to begin a self-paced learning process is: (1) Master the unicycle. (2) When mounted, rub your belly with one hand and pat your head with the other. (3) Switch hands.
 
Bell206 said:
Back in the day, when B206s and AS350Ds were flying by the 100s in the GOM, the "normal" upgrade was from 206 to 350. At the same time the 350Ds were notoriously referred to as Falling Stars due to a few things notably the ever-reliable Lycoming LTS 101 engine. You could always pick out a recent upgrade pilot when you could hear the 350 low rotor Renault truck horn blaring in the background as he was transmitting his mayday calls. As I recall those narrow 350D model blades were even lighter than your 407 blades.
Click to expand...
I recall the time a high time pilot rode a 350 into Lake Palourde when he had all the indications of a high side governor failure. I'm told that this type does not have a dual tach. A single needle for engine and rotor. His immediate action was to pull collective. When the wreckage was recovered, they found a broken input drive shaft. My only brief exposure to the type was in the AS 355 Ecuerille (Fr for squirrel). Well named.
 
Had a high side in the sim today at the bottom of an IAP to mins. Knew he was going to see if I would pull collective to arrest Nr and go back into the clouds IIMC. Pulled just enough collective to level off, went manual FADEC and continued the approach to the ground. Sweet action! Balled it up later on with a severe stuck left pedal though. Oh well. :(
 
Maxnr said:
I'm told that this type does not have a dual tach. A single needle for engine and rotor
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They had dual tachs. If he had a busted input shaft that would have been a sight as it is a rather substantial piece of metal. On the FYI side, more than likely your 355 was referred to as a Twinstar with the 350 as the Astar. The french preferred to keep the "squirrel" name for their pure versions of this model and differentiate them from the "dirty" American version.:rolleyes:
 
Bell206 said:
They had dual tachs. If he had a busted input shaft that would have been a sight as it is a rather substantial piece of metal. On the FYI side, more than likely your 355 was referred to as a Twinstar with the 350 as the Astar. The french preferred to keep the "squirrel" name for their pure versions of this model and differentiate them from the "dirty" American version.:rolleyes:
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All I know of the AS 350 (ASTAR) is what I'm told by 350 pilots. I regret that the FAA didn't call me in on the investigation. My outfit's AS 355's were sold to us as TWIN STARS and about the price of a new BH 206L1. Universally referred to as "Twin Pigs". Top it off, & with a solo pilot and all you could carry was a verbal message. Nowadays, it's an Airbus.
 
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Maxnr said:
Universally referred to as "Twin Pigs". Top it off, & with a solo pilot and all you could carry was a verbal message.
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We upgraded the original 355E to F models for that reason. When the F1 and eventually 355F2 came out it could actually do something but things were changing and the 355s and eventually the BO105s couldn't hang no more. Fun aircraft to work on with the right attitude. Can you say micro-switches....:eek:
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
FWIW, my understanding, based on what I was told by someone who was a flight test engineer for Bell, is that there is about a 0% margin for error in the Rotorway when the engine decides to stop making noise due to lack of inertia in the rotors.
Click to expand...

Like an R-22??? :D
 
Brad W said:
The new company, rotorx's web site stinks.....not much info there regarding cruise speeds, range, fuel burn, payload, etc...

Anyway, I got to thinking about the mission for that aircraft...what is it?
Seems like it would be a bit loud and shakey to be much of a cross country traveler...not to mention probably limited capability in weather (IFR, etc..)
Doesn't seem like an autopilot is likely in that thing, etc...

so what's it for?
Just a local fair weather flyer to cover the same ground over and over?
Better if you live in an area where there's lots of off airport opportunities (camping, exploring, whatever)?​

I don't know how many of you here are rotorcraft pilots, but from your perspective how do you see it?
Click to expand...

That is the question for most helicopter operations. If you need the capability of a helicopter, you need a helicopter. But most things you want to do with a plane, fixed wing does better.

I loved flying helicopters, but once I got my ratings, there just wasn't enough to do with them to keep spending the money to fly them.
 
I suppose they would shine if you have a lot of backcountry options for places to go.
 
Usually when someone pursues a rotorcraft rating is because the have a need for them and not the other way around. Unless they they simply like collecting ratings like one customer I had.
 
I got the ratings because helicopters are fun to fly.

But not really useful for your average GA person.
 
There's a guy who flies one around us, he's pretty happy with it. There is or was one for sale in Mass. very recently. A 2011 I believe for about $55k. If I wasn't such a chicken **** I would take the leap.
 
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