Restaurants keeping a portion of server's tips

denverpilot said:
How does this relate to minimum wage? There'd be a lot of businesses closing up shop tomorrow if the minimum wage were repealed, but not all. Priorities of the consumers would shift and some would just stop working altogether.
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You have made an assumption that wages would instantly plummet so low that aggregate demand would be reduced. This implies that you think an increase in minimum wage increases aggregate demand. Apparently, one could stimulate the economy by increasing the minimum wage. Obviously (I hope) that's not the way it works.

Minimum wage law doesn't cause people to get paid more than they would in a free market. People are paid what they are worth. Minimum wage law increases unemployment because people who are not worth at least the minimum wage simply do not get a job at all. Decreasing minimum wage will decrease unemployment. Economic efficiency is increased from reduced government interference--and that's important because when economic efficiency increases, everyone benefits. It's called a pareto-improving move.

The minimum wage law has been particularly tough on teens, but extremely tough on black teens. When it was first enacted in the 1950s, unemployment among black youth nearly tripled.
 
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dmspilot said:
An adult and a teenager are the same price because of minimum wage law. I think you proved the point you were arguing against.
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Nope because I don't lose the adult when school kicks in. The adult is also probably available more hours. The adult is (probably) more responsible. The adult probably has their own transportation. The adult, especially if ex-military, is probably used to following orders. I could go on, but it's getting to the point of piling on.

If I can pay an adult $1 less during the probationary period, then is it $2 less for the teenager? So you'd have a kid working for $0.75 / hr (plus tips) as waitstaff? What's the low point? $0.10 an hour? $0.50 an hour?


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wsuffa said:
This really is nothing new (some restaurants have been doing it for a number of years). It's one reason that I normally tip above the suggested 15% (somewhere between 17 and 21%)
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Where did these "suggested" levels come from? I remember (yeah, I'm old) when 10% was considered "normal". Then it went to 15% and some (many?) places say 18%. All the while the price of the meal has gone up, too. I don't live in NYC, so what gives?

wsuffa said:
Y'all really want to send this to Spin Zone?

As for tipping, should we move to a model of having the service charge built into the bill, and little or no tips? Like the custom in many other countries?

via Tapatalk
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It is more convenient, but what do you do when the service is poor? Now, I will admit, I haven't run into that problem in countries where tipping is not the norm.

jesse said:
I must have no heart.
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Me, neither.

p1l0t said:
When you pay someone so little that they begin to depend on either you or society as whole for basic needs it is basically slave labor. I make well over minimum wage, but its tough enough as it is to pay the bills even with my girlfriend chipping in. I can't imagine how someone can support a family on even $10/hr..

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Not intended to support a family. If you can't support one, don't have one.

Gerhardt said:
1. Sorry folks, I think the restaurant is out of line on this. Withholding a small % of tips for card processing fees is disrespectful to your employees. It's not like they're overpaid and underworked already.

2. If I get terrible service I don't tip. Period. Anything above that gets 15-20%. Just a few times a year I get service that's so good I'll tip 100%.

3. But my pet peeves with waitstaff is a long list. When I'm talking with someone I don't like the waiter to walk up and talk over me, asking to take our order. It takes just a few seconds to let me finish my sentence. I don't like sitting down to find the table still wet. I want to be able to get the waiter's attention when I want something (like the check) within a short period of time. (it shouldn't take 15 minutes to make eye contact to signal for the check)

4. It's a thorn in my side every time I hear about how someone can't raise a family of four on minimum wage. It was never meant to sustain a family. Good heavens, it's not even aimed at most adults. It's designed to avoid teen summer job slave labor.
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+1
 
Ghery said:
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Not intended to support a family. If you can't support one, don't have one.

....
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On this point alone, a low birthrate caused France major, major, major, major, major, major, major, major, major problems.
 
Ok when you do tip do you tip the 15-20% on just the meal and drinks or do you include the tax when figuring your tip?
 
Anthony said:
Jobs, like these are typically stepping stones to more lucrative positions while going to school, etc, or a second job. Sure there are some career wait staff at restaurants, but I don't think that's the norm. They are not meant to support a family, but meant to offer income until you acquire skills to earn more. Maybe those skills are in the restaurant industry, or a field where you are focused elsewhere.
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I agree except for the very high-end restaurants. When I go somewhere and a four-course dinner for two is over $200.00, I still tip at my normal rate. 15-20% at a place like that is a wage that can support a family. And those guys earn it, with their knowledge of food, wine, and their great skills as a service provider.

I once had this idea for a Ronco-like gadget called the Tip-o-Meter. It's a little device with a base, and an LED screen. Turn it on and it displays 15%. With a pair of buttons you can increase or increase the tip-o-meter, and your waitstaff knows where they stand. When it gets below 10% the numbers turn red, and it can also display negative numbers (meaning the waiter owes YOU money). It would be interesting to see what such a device would do to the behavior of the waitstaff.
 
TMetzinger said:
I agree except for the very high-end restaurants. When I go somewhere and a four-course dinner for two is over $200.00, I still tip at my normal rate. 15-20% at a place like that is a wage that can support a family. And those guys earn it, with their knowledge of food, wine, and their great skills as a service provider.

I once had this idea for a Ronco-like gadget called the Tip-o-Meter. It's a little device with a base, and an LED screen. Turn it on and it displays 15%. With a pair of buttons you can increase or increase the tip-o-meter, and your waitstaff knows where they stand. When it gets below 10% the numbers turn red, and it can also display negative numbers (meaning the waiter owes YOU money). It would be interesting to see what such a device would do to the behavior of the waitstaff.
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That would only work if you were served all your food, including dessert because if you set to thing to display red you can bet the waiter possible could /would spit in your food.:idea::idea:
IMHO
 
I thought it was illegal for the restaurant to touch the tips (at least in Ma). Even if I pay the bill with a credit card, I usually pay the tip with cash and usually in the 20-30% range. If I found the restaurant skimming from the tips, I'd let them know I disagreed with the practice and if they still wanted me as a customer, they'd best stop the practice.
I don't care what the businesses rationale is for it, the server or servers worked hard for the money and they deserve the whole thing.
 
JesseD said:
Nope because I don't lose the adult when school kicks in. The adult is also probably available more hours. The adult is (probably) more responsible. The adult probably has their own transportation. The adult, especially if ex-military, is probably used to following orders. I could go on, but it's getting to the point of piling on.
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You are telling me that adults are more valuable to you, and that is what I said. I don't know what you are trying to argue for or against.

JesseD said:
If I can pay an adult $1 less during the probationary period, then is it $2 less for the teenager? So you'd have a kid working for $0.75 / hr (plus tips) as waitstaff? What's the low point? $0.10 an hour? $0.50 an hour?
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If a waiter get paid 10 cents/hour but get $20/hr in tips does it matter?
 
I'm with Gerhardt on wait staff. I know it's hard for them, but walking up and just butting in really bothers me. I don't think they understand if they approach and stand in a obvious position for a few seconds, we'll stop. If we don't they can walk away and come back.
I actually had someone come from behind me, slap me lightly on the back and ask how the meal was! I pretended to choke on what I was eating until it clicked with them I was trying to eat.
Nothing is worse, especially when I'm alone (usually just trying to eat and leave) than not bringing a bill and getting change so I can go.
We're all sailing against strong head winds right now. I can't imaging trying to actually support a family on minimum wage. It seems the better folks float to the surface and get better positions, even in the food service industry.
I usually lean toward 20% if folks do a good job. 15% if mediocre. I only deduct tax and drinks if it's a large bill. Since I don't normally drink, that's rare for me.

Best,

Dave
 
silver-eagle said:
I thought it was illegal for the restaurant to touch the tips (at least in Ma). Even if I pay the bill with a credit card, I usually pay the tip with cash and usually in the 20-30% range. If I found the restaurant skimming from the tips, I'd let them know I disagreed with the practice and if they still wanted me as a customer, they'd best stop the practice.
I don't care what the businesses rationale is for it, the server or servers worked hard for the money and they deserve the whole thing.
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If your tipping in cash then there is no issue. I would not say they are skimming they are simply recovering the cost that they pay for processing the tip.
 
p1l0t said:
Call me a commie but I think that a reasonable minimum wage no matter what your job is fair.
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Do you think the employee should bring in more money than he is paid?

Or do you think that it's ok to force the employer to pay more than the employee is worth?
 
woodstock said:
You mean, the cost of doing business?
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This is the exact excuse the banks use for giving us .03% on our money while charging us an average of $15 a month for that account.
If you can't manage your business without stealing from your employees, you have no business being IN BUSINESS. In fact, you should be in jail.
 
silver-eagle said:
This is the exact excuse the banks use for giving us .03% on our money while charging us an average of $15 a month for that account.
If you can't manage your business without stealing from your employees, you have no business being IN BUSINESS. In fact, you should be in jail.
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Thanks for making my point.
 
I'm sorry but how to you equate not wanting to pay the processing fee for a tip with stealing from the employee?
 
jtheune said:
I'm sorry but how to you equate not wanting to pay the processing fee for a tip with stealing from the employee?
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How do you evaluate it? Didn't you just give the server a tip to improve your service? Isn't the reason they get less than minimum an hour, and the restaurant is allowed to pay them less, is because they GET THE TIPS? And now you're suggesting they give up part of the MONEY you gave them to augment the business's cost of doing business.
That, sir, is stealing. Massachusetts law does not allow the business to take ANYTHING from the tip.
Let's put it another way. You want a clean glass for your can of coke you just bought from the restaurant. They charge you 10 cents for that glass. Now the FEE for doing business is in your lap. Pay it or tell them to get lost?
How about when they charge you $1 to serve you on a clean plate?
 
silver-eagle said:
How do you evaluate it? Didn't you just give the server a tip to improve your service? Isn't the reason they get less than minimum an hour, and the restaurant is allowed to pay them less, is because they GET THE TIPS? And now you're suggesting they give up part of the MONEY you gave them to augment the business's cost of doing business.
That, sir, is stealing. Massachusetts law does not allow the business to take ANYTHING from the tip.
Let's put it another way. You want a clean glass for your can of coke you just bought from the restaurant. They charge you 10 cents for that glass. Now the FEE for doing business is in your lap. Pay it or tell them to get lost?
How about when they charge you $1 to serve you on a clean plate?
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How about if the business either charged you (the customer) 3% for using a credit card? Or, gave you a 3% cash discount? Processing credit cards costs money. If you're a restaurant owner and you've been holding prices as costs go up, at some point you can't sustain it. You can 1) raise prices, 2) reduce or recapture costs somewhere. Hmmm. Get cheaper (lower quality) food? Stop taking credit cards? Where do you take your cuts?

Paying the credit card processing fees for tips means the restaurant is tipping the servers an extra 3%. Which they can do if they like. It's certainly not stealing to do otherwise. Any more than charging the same price to cash paying customers is stealing.

John
 
Think FBOs charging a "Fuel Service Charge". That amount goes directly to the FBO. This cuts out the leaseback owner from the NOW $120 price of the hourly rental.
The restaurants might as well list the burger for $5, the clean tablecloth for $1, the clean plates and silver for $2, and the server for $10. Your $5 burger is now $18 but you think it's fair.
The restaurant would like you to believe this is not theft but think. You diligently calculate 15%. The restaurant takes, what?, 10% of that to pay their CC charge. Or 3.5%? Or, since they ARE trying to recoup their costs, they take 3.5% of the total bill from the TIP. Why should THEY pay the charge at all? You in fact gave them the extra to pay it off.
The point is, where does it end? Your electric company charges a fuel service charge, a delivery charge, and passes you ALL the taxes they have to pay. And you just roll over and pay them.
Where does it end? I'll say again. If you can't afford the business, get out. Don't steal from your employees. Don't lie to your customers.
 
silver-eagle said:
Think FBOs charging a "Fuel Service Charge". That amount goes directly to the FBO. This cuts out the leaseback owner from the NOW $120 price of the hourly rental.
The restaurants might as well list the burger for $5, the clean tablecloth for $1, the clean plates and silver for $2, and the server for $10. Your $5 burger is now $18 but you think it's fair.
The restaurant would like you to believe this is not theft but think. You diligently calculate 15%. The restaurant takes, what?, 10% of that to pay their CC charge. Or 3.5%? Or, since they ARE trying to recoup their costs, they take 3.5% of the total bill from the TIP. Why should THEY pay the charge at all? You in fact gave them the extra to pay it off.
The point is, where does it end? Your electric company charges a fuel service charge, a delivery charge, and passes you ALL the taxes they have to pay. And you just roll over and pay them.
Where does it end? I'll say again. If you can't afford the business, get out. Don't steal from your employees. Don't lie to your customers.
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You really should stop taking the drugs or cut back on your drinking.
 
silver-eagle said:
The restaurant would like you to believe this is not theft but think.
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Theft only happens by force. You can't have theft in a voluntary transaction.

silver-eagle said:
The restaurants might as well list the burger for $5, the clean tablecloth for $1, the clean plates and silver for $2, and the server for $10. Your $5 burger is now $18 but you think it's fair.
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Yes, it's totally fair. I wouldn't eat there but who are you to stop someone that wanted to?

What if I brought my own plate and silverware to every restaurant I go to, and they decreased my bill by $2? Does that mean they are stealing from every customer except me?
 
I hate when people say "Oh you think its bad here... look at this third world country..." Sure it can be worse, but that doesn't excuse what is going on. There are many countries that have it much better. Maybe we should be studying them instead of the third world as our model!

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p1l0t said:
I hate when people say "Oh you think its bad here... look at this third world country..." Sure it can be worse, but that doesn't excuse what is going on. There are many countries that have it much better. Maybe we should be studying them instead of the third world as our model!

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Like where? Please give an example close to the size, and diversity of the U.S. Not Switzlerland or Lichtenstein please.

Restaurants should build the cost of the CC fees, into the price of the food, not take it away from the wait staff. That is just another cost shell game to artificially price their food more competitively.

In the end the consumer pays for it all anyways, in higher costs, poorer service or both.
 
p1l0t said:
I hate when people say "Oh you think its bad here... look at this third world country..." Sure it can be worse, but that doesn't excuse what is going on. There are many countries that have it much better. Maybe we should be studying them instead of the third world as our model!

<---<^>--->
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My point was not that we can't do better. My point was capitalism has done better than any other economic system at floating everybody's boat (so to speak). Of course it's not just capitalism in isolation. The US has had stable governments which are (compared to most 3rd world countries, Chicago notwithstanding) not corrupt. We have created more wealth and spread it further down the chain than any comparably sized country on earth, ever-while peopled with folks that are as selfish and dishonest as any other group. Be careful that whatever system you propose as better is not dependent on perfect people to make it work, because it won't.

John
 
Bob Noel said:
Do you think the employee should bring in more money than he is paid?

Or do you think that it's ok to force the employer to pay more than the employee is worth?
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<crickets>
 
Bob Noel said:
<crickets>
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The "crickets" are mulliung over if they really want to admit, that due to captitalism being soooo unfair, they deserve to get something for nothing from the successful out there.
 
Ghery said:
Where did these "suggested" levels come from? I remember (yeah, I'm old) when 10% was considered "normal". Then it went to 15% and some (many?) places say 18%. All the while the price of the meal has gone up, too. I don't live in NYC, so what gives?
+1
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+1. "Suggested" by who? IMHO 10% is fair, and 15% generous. This 18% nonsense is pure greed. Like the quoted poster says, the tip is a percentage of the total - so as prices rise, so do the tips. If other people want to be more generous, that is their perogative. However, in no case should a tip be automatic - but rather in direct proportion to the quality of service provided.

One thing I will not stand for is for a restaurant to add an involuntary "service charge" to a bill. One extreme example was when I joined some coworkers at a buffet lunch in a fancy hotel. It was all self-serve - except for the drinks. So what do these clowns do? add 18% to my bill for bringing me a glass of water.
Never again... Nuff said. Ask beforehand, and vote with your feet if you don't like the answer.

Dave
 
BillTIZ said:
I started paying cash at restaurants years ago, when the economy went south. We tip well, in cash.

We are moving back to a cash basis, not credit/debit cards. I deal primarily with three banks. One bank charges a monthly fee if I write checks, they charge me to "image" the cancelled check on the monthly statement. No I have not gone "paperless". I no longer write checks on that account, just free online bill pay. I have been with that bank through various owners for over 35 yrs. Now they want to charge a monthly fee for using my debit card. (BoA)

Another bank, local, that I use primarily for local debit card action, and what few checks I do write, will start charging a monthly fee for debit card use. (WF)

It's about time to drop both of those banks and go back to a credit union.
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+1. Time to get de-Banked. The banks got too greedy - and got the rug pulled out from under them. So they have decided to stick it to their customers. Think they will get away with it? I dont. There are alternatives.

Dave
 
Perhaps the simple answer is for the restaurants to Just have a policy that all tips must be in cash or check.
 
AdamZ said:
Ok when you do tip do you tip the 15-20% on just the meal and drinks or do you include the tax when figuring your tip?
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I base my tip on consumables only.
 
Anthony said:
Like where? Please give an example close to the size, and diversity of the U.S. Not Switzlerland or.
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Australia.

As long as you're away from the places that prey upon the US or Europeans, tipping is unheard of.
 
woodstock said:
1. What?

2. This is subjective, isn't it?
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1) "Do you think the employee should bring in more money than he is paid?" In other words, should the employer make a profit on the cost of the employee?

2) "Or do you think that it's ok to force the employer to pay more than the employee is worth?" How is that subjective? This isn't rocket science, it's simple math. For example, if the employee costs $20,000 year but only generates $10,000 more revenue, it isn't subjective to understand that the employer would be better off without that employee.
 
Bob Noel said:
1) "Do you think the employee should bring in more money than he is paid?" In other words, should the employer make a profit on the cost of the employee?

2) "Or do you think that it's ok to force the employer to pay more than the employee is worth?" How is that subjective? This isn't rocket science, it's simple math. For example, if the employee costs $20,000 year but only generates $10,000 more revenue, it isn't subjective to understand that the employer would be better off without that employee.
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Another relevant question might be whether the business is really a viable one if the only way it can turn a profit is to pay less than an amount reasonably necessary for an employee make ends meet (i.e., rent and food).
 
Bob Noel said:
2) "Or do you think that it's ok to force the employer to pay more than the employee is worth?" How is that subjective? This isn't rocket science, it's simple math. For example, if the employee costs $20,000 year but only generates $10,000 more revenue, it isn't subjective to understand that the employer would be better off without that employee.
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How can you assign a number to what an employee brings in? If you are going to say that a server brings in $10,000 in revenue a year what number are you going to assign to the cooks or the dishwashers? I don't think you can divide up the revenue like that using any logical formula.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Another relevant question might be whether the business is really a viable one if the only way it can turn a profit is to pay less than an amount reasonably necessary for an employee make ends meet (i.e., rent and food).
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You're assuming it is a business' responsibility to pay enough to make ends meet.
 
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