Restaurants keeping a portion of server's tips

[pilot_dude]

How can you assign a number to what an employee brings in? If you are going to say that a server brings in $10,000 in revenue a year what number are you going to assign to the cooks or the dishwashers? I don't think you can divide up the revenue like that using any logical formula.

You are correct. Most people in most organizations I have worked with/for do not directly produce income for the company. In a broad sense, management fits this category.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

You're assuming it is a business' responsibility to pay enough to make ends meet.

I'll stand by the concept of: if a business cannot make a profit unless it does not pay its employees enough to live on, it's not a sound business.

We can argue about "social justice" and all of that nonsense, but I'd say the foregoing is a fundamental concept, and is an inherent part of running a good business.

 

[TMetzinger]

I'll stand by the concept of: if a business cannot make a profit unless it does not pay its employees enough to live on, it's not a sound business.

We can argue about "social justice" and all of that nonsense, but I'd say the foregoing is a fundamental concept, and is an inherent part of running a good business.

hmm... Define "enough to live on".

 

[Anthony]

Australia.

As long as you're away from the places that prey upon the US or Europeans, tipping is unheard of.

My question of the person that said other countries are "better" had nothing to do with tipping.

Plus the population of Australia is 22.7M vs. 300M in the U.S. Big difference.

 

[jtheune]

I'll stand by the concept of: if a business cannot make a profit unless it does not pay its employees enough to live on, it's not a sound business.

We can argue about "social justice" and all of that nonsense, but I'd say the foregoing is a fundamental concept, and is an inherent part of running a good business.

So the many fast food restaurants and ice cream places that often employee young and unskilled workers are not sound? And to force a business to pay it's employees a wage that allows them to live in a live style you have chosen for them is socialism at it's finest.

Minimum wage jobs pay enough for some one to live on. They just won't live in a 2 bedroom garden apartment with a cell phone, cable and their own car.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

hmm... Define "enough to live on".

Enough to have shelter and food - we're talking the basics here.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

So the many fast food restaurants and ice cream places that often employee young and unskilled workers are not sound? And to force a business to pay it's employees a wage that allows them to live in a live style you have chosen for them is socialism at it's finest.

Totalitarianism would be a better word than socialism, I think.

Minimum wage jobs pay enough for some one to live on.

Agreed.

Guess what doesn't pay minimum wage, though?

They just won't live in a 2 bedroom garden apartment with a cell phone, cable and their own car.

I'd say this is clearly outside "enough to live on."

 

[Anthony]

Businesses pay what employees are worth in the market place. Don't make enough? Go work somewhere else, or acquire the skills to earn a higher wage. Nobody is forcing anyone to work in low paying fast food jobs, or anywhere for that matter.

To force businesses to pay higher wages will force them out of business, and will create yet more unemployment.

Most of these low wage jobs are stepping stones for people.

 

[Bob Noel]

You're assuming it is a business' responsibility to pay enough to make ends meet.

What idiot would pay someone more than their contribution is worth?

 

[dmspilot]

I'll stand by the concept of: if a business cannot make a profit unless it does not pay its employees enough to live on, it's not a sound business.

So you would rather a person be unemployed and making zero, than making less than the desirable amount?

The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit.
Milton Friedman

 

[p1l0t]

Do you think the employee should bring in more money than he is paid?

Or do you think that it's ok to force the employer to pay more than the employee is worth?

First of all, the employee doesn't bring in the money. He merely does the actual work providing what the customer is willing to pay for. And force employers to pay more than $5/hr or else do it themselves, yes.

 

[denverpilot]

How can you assign a number to what an employee brings in? If you are going to say that a server brings in $10,000 in revenue a year what number are you going to assign to the cooks or the dishwashers? I don't think you can divide up the revenue like that using any logical formula.

Businesses do that all the time. Do they pay the front desk receptionist the same as a 20 year software developer? Both may be critical to the business' success, but one is a lot easier to replace than the other...

Cooks make more than dishwashers...

 

[denverpilot]

You are correct. Most people in most organizations I have worked with/for do not directly produce income for the company. In a broad sense, management fits this category.

Everyone forgets there's two sides to revenue... making it or saving it.

Lawyers don't make money for a company either, but they usually save the company money they already earned.

And... if you don't make or save your company money, you're right... you're what's known as "overhead". And, often the first one shown the door in bad times.

Agreed that often management is overhead too... but they have nepotism, buddies, and the good old boy network politics covering their um... assets.

 

[Everskyward]

Businesses do that all the time. Do they pay the front desk receptionist the same as a 20 year software developer? Both may be critical to the business' success, but one is a lot easier to replace than the other...

Cooks make more than dishwashers...

That's not what I was talking about. Does the front desk receptionist create $10,000 in revenue? How about $5,000? Does he or she create any revenue at all?

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

So you would rather a person be unemployed and making zero, than making less than the desirable amount?

The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit.
Milton Friedman

Did I say anything of the sort?

 

[p1l0t]

Anthony,

1 Liechtenstein 142,700 2008
2 Luxembourg 110,400 2010 est.
3 Norway 88,600 2010 est.
4 Qatar 75,300 2010 est.
5 Switzerland 68,700 2010 est.
6 United Arab Emirates 60,700 2010 est.
7 Jersey 57,600 2005 est.
8 Australia 57,400 2010 est.
9 Denmark 56,300 2010 est.
10 Kuwait 51,600 2010 est.
11 Faroe Islands 50,300 2008 est.
12 Sweden 50,200 2010 est.
13 San Marino49,300 2009
14 United States 47,600 2010 est.

Source: CIA Factbook

And being that the United States is one of the largest countries in the world only allowing Russia and China to compare to is a little unfair, no?

 

[denverpilot]

That's not what I was talking about. Does the front desk receptionist create $10,000 in revenue? How about $5,000? Does he or she create any revenue at all?

Technically no. Realistically, a business has to put a price on it.

No one *has* to have a front-desk receptionist, but most places can find plenty of work for one to do. It's often phone work, clerical work, etc.

Maybe that's a third category... folks that do "easy" stuff that customers expect to be done, that stuff has to be done so that you free up a more valuable employee who's making the money to pay payroll plus lots more.

Frankly there's a lot of "busywork" in many businesses, attached to the concept that we even need offices and places to go to do business. A receptionist to meet/greet customers in a lobby isn't too valuable in a virtual company with no office, for example... but they still may be needed for telephone work.

 

[Everskyward]

Technically no. Realistically, a business has to put a price on it.

They need to put a price on the employee as in what they are willing to pay for someone, but due to the nature of some people's jobs they can't always put a price on the amount of revenue an employee brings in.

 

[gismo]

Enough to have shelter and food - we're talking the basics here.

So you think there's no point in a business that provides teenagers with pocket cash for unskilled labor? When I was in school I was pretty happy to get a summer job that gave me enough to put gas in the car and to to a movie occasionally. Living at home (sans rent) my other expenses were pretty minimal.

 

[Anthony]

And being that the United States is one of the largest countries in the world only allowing Russia and China to compare to is a little unfair, no?

Agreed, but when someone asks where it is better to live, I still think we have an overall better standard of living comparitively.

I do understand your point, which is valid.

 

[Mason]

I never charge tips. Always pay cash. Even if I charge the meal.

 

[Bob Noel]

First of all, the employee doesn't bring in the money. He merely does the actual work providing what the customer is willing to pay for.

Don't be obtuse. Or are you really unable to understand that the employee has to provide a net benefit to the employer? Or do you think that employers should be forced by the government to provide pay the employer more than the value to the employer?

And force employers to pay more than $5/hr or else do it themselves, yes.

hmmmmm.

 

[p1l0t]

Don't be obtuse. Or are you really unable to understand that the employee has to provide a net benefit to the employer? Or do you think that employers should be forced by the government to provide pay the employer more than the value to the employer?



hmmmmm.

I understand the employee has to do something worthwhile. The employer cannot possibly pay the employee more than the value. What I'm saying is that if the job isn't worth a living wage than the job shouldn't exist.

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[Anthony]

I understand the employee has to do something worthwhile. The employer cannot possibly pay the employee more than the value. What I'm saying is that if the job isn't worth a living wage than the job shouldn't exist.

<---<^>--->

Who determines what a living wage is going to be? What does "living" mean? Flat screen, i phone, nice car, nice house, free health care?

Companies exist to MAKE a PROFIT. They are not job shops nor employment agencies.

Maybe read an econ book or take a business course? Better yet, start a business, and see how it works for real.

 

[Bob Noel]

I understand the employee has to do something worthwhile. The employer cannot possibly pay the employee more than the value. What I'm saying is that if the job isn't worth a living wage than the job shouldn't exist.

Think it through

Please define "living wage"

Does part-time work need to pay this so-called "living wage"?

What about seasonal work?

What about the person that wants to pick up some cash?

What do you think happens to employment rates when minimum wages rise? What do you think would happen if the minimum wage was $20/hour? After all, you'd think that someone would be able to live on $40,000 per year, right?

 

[Anthony]

Let's put it into perspecitve. Say I'm a teenager, and want to learn to fly. I go to my local airport and get a job as a line person. I make minimum wage, and occasionally a tip. I get free rides with the pilots, and can hang out an get advice from CFI's etc. I live at home with my parents, so I can use my earnings for flying lessons, if I save wisely.

So because this job does not provide a "living wage" according to you, it shouldn't exist?

 

[p1l0t]

Who determines what a living wage is going to be? What does "living" mean? Flat screen, i phone, nice car, nice house, free health care?

Companies exist to MAKE a PROFIT. They are not job shops nor employment agencies.

Maybe read an econ book or take a business course? Better yet, start a business, and see how it works for real.

Well my father owns a tool and die company and I know better than to start my own business, lol! Actually I shouldn't complain because it paid for my flight training, college, and mortgage. Still, my father pays well above minimum even for just starting or learning the trade. He dosen't believe the minimum wage is high enough either. The reason our company does so well is because if the job isn't worth it, WE DON'T DO IT! And as for comment about me not belonging here just because I don't believe in YOUR idealogy, why don't you just try and make me tough guy? America was founded on the idea that people could speak their minds and fight for what they believe in and if you think that I should go away because I don't think like you than your an ignorant fool.

<---<^>--->

 

[dmspilot]

I understand the employee has to do something worthwhile. The employer cannot possibly pay the employee more than the value. What I'm saying is that if the job isn't worth a living wage than the job shouldn't exist.

"If you can't work at a job earning at least a living wage then you shouldn't work at all."

 

[p1l0t]

"If you can't work at a job earning at least a living wage then you shouldn't work at all."

Unemployment is inefficency. Now right now people can collect for 2.5 years which is obsurd and I think part of the reason why. Heck if I lost both my jobs I would collect and only apply for the best jobs.. There is more work out there to be done than there are humans, machines, and computers put together. The problem is that it always comes down to who gets what. Who is going to invest in it? How much is it worth? What is the ROI? When do I collect? What are the risks? Who wants to insure it? At what cost? The good news is they are starting to come out with apps that match jobs to workers. Unfortunately, right now it is only for small side jobs because of who gets what basically. Will I get sued if these guys make money and don't pay taxes? What is the liability? Can I be insured against that too? Do I need a patent? These are things HAVE to be considered with the way things are. I have no problem with those who go the extra mile, study more, work harder, contribute to society to make the most money. I do have problem with people prescribe to the idea that 10 people need to work more for less so that 1 person can do less for more. I am not advocating some kind of totaltarian government, that never works because authority for te sake of authority breeds ignorance and opression, take the TSA for example. I will take freedom over security anyday of the week. Freedom means freedom for all, not for one. I purposely used the word commie early in this thread because I knew the second I dared to stand in the face of the almighty pyramid scam the first things tha would be said would sound lik "communist" "entitlements" "poor people are poor they are stupid" all wrong. We can live in a society where everyone has oppurtunity without standing in long lines for bread. And doesn't have to be at the cost of our neighbors. Its time to start thinking about what is best for us and not the man.

<---<^>--->

 

[p1l0t]

Wow I typed that way to fast, at least three spelling errors, hey cut me a break I am on a rant on my cell phone doing the two-thumb dance

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[EdFred]

I skipped to the end, and didn't read all the responses. But, lets take it to the extreme....

The restaurant expects you to tip 15% or so, and build in their credit card processing fee into meal prices based on that 15 tip%. Then you get someone like me who every once in a while tips at 100% or even 200% (Yes, I have tipped at those levels). The restaurant is expecting to pay out, say $1 on the processing portion of the tip. But instead, they are now paying out $6 or $12 for that fee. Oops. Get a few people like me, and what choice does the restaurant have?

 

[jesse]

Then you get someone like me who every once in a while tips at 100% or even 200% (Yes, I have tipped at those levels).=

As have I. But it's rare enough that I seriously doubt it's much of an issue.

 

[EdFred]

As have I. But it's rare enough that I seriously doubt it's much of an issue.

That's why I said taken to the extreme. If I opened a restaurant, I would take no credit cards, but I would have an ATM in the lobby. Cash only = win. Hard to trace cash for taxes, and I get the processing fee from the ATM.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

We have places like that here in Dallas, Ed. Sign when one walks in says cash and approved checks only. If they get to know you, a check is fine. No CCs. They seem to be locally owned and run in a hands-on manner. Can't imagine large franchises could do that, but maybe. I could see where it would also be tough for more expensive places.

Best,

Dave

 

[jesse]

That's why I said taken to the extreme. If I opened a restaurant, I would take no credit cards, but I would have an ATM in the lobby. Cash only = win. Hard to trace cash for taxes, and I get the processing fee from the ATM.

I wouldn't go to your restraunt. I rarely carry cash and I'm not about to waste $2 on your ATM fee.

 

[EdFred]

I wouldn't go to your restraunt. I rarely carry cash and I'm not about to waste $2 on your ATM fee.

I know. Instead, you'll make someone drive you and Nick 26 miles one way to go to a different ATM.

 

[jesse]

I know. Instead, you'll make someone drive you and Nick 26 miles one way to go to a different ATM.

I learned my lesson and had about $400 in cash this year. Not sure why I thought I'd need that much. I probably spent less than $40 the entire weekend.

 

[Anthony]

Well my father owns a tool and die company and I know better than to start my own business, lol! Actually I shouldn't complain because it paid for my flight training, college, and mortgage. Still, my father pays well above minimum even for just starting or learning the trade. He dosen't believe the minimum wage is high enough either. The reason our company does so well is because if the job isn't worth it, WE DON'T DO IT! And as for comment about me not belonging here just because I don't believe in YOUR idealogy, why don't you just try and make me tough guy? America was founded on the idea that people could speak their minds and fight for what they believe in and if you think that I should go away because I don't think like you than your an ignorant fool.

<---<^>--->

I meant "here" as in the U.S., not this website. If you believe in government mandating wages, that is more akin to being in China, Cuba, or Venezuela. We live in a highly regulated capitalist society. We don't need to force more businesses out of businesses due to aritificially high wage rates.

You totally misunderstood what I was trying to say, and/or maybe I did not articulate myself the first time. If so, sorry about that.

Everyone is welcome here. Well almost everyone.

 

[p1l0t]

I meant "here" as in the U.S., not this website. If you believe in government mandating wages, that is more akin to being in China, Cuba, or Venezuela. We live in a highly regulated capitalist society. We don't need to force more businesses out of businesses due to aritificially high wage rates.

You totally misunderstood what I was trying to say, and/or maybe I did not articulate myself the first time. If so, sorry about that.

Everyone is welcome here. Well almost everyone.

I knew full well you meant the United States, and like I said, BRING IT!

<---<^>--->

 

[p1l0t]

That's why I said taken to the extreme. If I opened a restaurant, I would take no credit cards, but I would have an ATM in the lobby. Cash only = win. Hard to trace cash for taxes, and I get the processing fee from the ATM.

Cash is always King.

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