Requirements to enter Class A; B; C; D

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Geewiz

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Geewiz
During the ground school portion of my BFR, the instructor asked me to describe the requirements for entering A; B; C; and D airspace.

I replied that A and B always requires specific clearance before entering, but as a VFR pilot, C and D airspace requires only that communications with the tower is established before entering. He nearly beat me with a stupid stick and adamantly corrected me saying that all controlled airspace requires clearance before entering. When I tried to explain my answer, he beat me some more with the stick and I simply capitulated. But I really felt kind of p**sed.

I felt rattled by this experience and the flight portion showed it when he had me do VOR intercepts under the hood. My brain became a vacuous realm of dead air space.

So...he wants to spend another hour reviewing VOR work on the ground and in the air.

Do I bring my FAR/AIM manual with the appropriate clearance requirements marked and try and discuss this with him? Or do I just let it go and try and get this over with? Maybe my understanding really is wrong?

I'll confess that this is my first BFR and the instructor is a retired commercial pilot who probably has +30k hours compared to my paltry <.2k hours.
 
I would say that he needs to freshen up on his airspace himself and go with a different instructor. If he insist to finish the flight review, show him the requirements for entering D and C, then the entrance requirements for B and A. Technically, you need an instrument clearance to enter A, not just a clearance, so maybe that is what he was referring to?
 
I can see a small issue with your answer for class A since you can only be IFR there, as a pp you can never enter this space. You are technically correct for the remainder of your answer. The minor difference he may have been looking for is with class B. With class B you must specifically ask for and be granted permission to enter. With C and D radio communication is all that is needed, not specific permission.

The remained of the requirements are A,B,C require an altitude encoding transponder (mode C) and a radio. D only requires a radio and a transponder.
 
drotto said:
I can see a small issue with your answer for class A since you can only be IFR there, as a pp you can never enter this space. You are technically correct for the remainder of your answer. The minor difference he may have been looking for is with class B. With class B you must specifically ask for and be granted permission to enter. With C and D radio communication is all that is needed, not specific permission.

The remained of the requirements are A,B,C require an altitude encoding transponder (mode C) and a radio. D only requires a radio and a transponder.
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Right. Class A requires an IFR flight plan and that always requires clearance prior to entering. Class B, under VFR, requires clearance prior to entering. Class C and D requires only that communications be established, as in entering Class D:

Me: "Martinsburg tower, N123AB 10 north inbound for runway 26"

Tower "N123AB" standby"


Technically I've established communications and am free to enter Class D.
 
drotto said:
I can see a small issue with your answer for class A since you can only be IFR there, as a pp you can never enter this space. You are technically correct for the remainder of your answer. The minor difference he may have been looking for is with class B. With class B you must specifically ask for and be granted permission to enter. With C and D radio communication is all that is needed, not specific permission.

The remained of the requirements are A,B,C require an altitude encoding transponder (mode C) and a radio. D only requires a radio and a transponder.
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Private pilots can enter Class A airspace, private pilots can achieve an instrument rating, get a clearance and fly aircraft capable of climbing above 18,000ft.
 
nimdabew said:
I would say that he needs to freshen up on his airspace himself and go with a different instructor. If he insist to finish the flight review, show him the requirements for entering D and C, then the entrance requirements for B and A. Technically, you need an instrument clearance to enter A, not just a clearance, so maybe that is what he was referring to?
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I'm beginning to think that I need to go with a different instructor. Like, maybe I got off on a bad start with this one and it's not worth trying to salvage it?
 
Class E is controlled airspace.

Do you need clearance to enter it? Nope.

I guess it could be a play on words as "establishing communication" could be viewed as your "clearance to enter" but seems like he's being a nit-picking jerk.

Me, I'd find a different guy for my BFR.
 
Sounds like regardless of his length of experience he needs a refresher, both on the regulations and on instructing. If he was beating you over the head with things he's not a very good teacher. His job is to teach and evaluate, not to badger. If you're deficient he's supposed to get you up to speed, not beat you over the head with it. The fact that he's wrong doesn't make it any better.
 
Just because some old airline pilot has 30k hours does not mean he knows (1) how to instruct, (2) the regulations and how to interpret, (3) did I mention knowing how to teach?

If you can, find another instructor, explain what happened, if he agrees to complete your flight review, call up the first instructor, they'll him you've found another instructor, (you need not tell him who).

Tell him yelling and belittling does not work for you, then recommend he review the applicable reg by paragraph number before he continues to pass bad information to his next student.
 
nimdabew said:
I would say that he needs to freshen up on his airspace himself and go with a different instructor. If he insist to finish the flight review, show him the requirements for entering D and C, then the entrance requirements for B and A. Technically, you need an instrument clearance to enter A, not just a clearance, so maybe that is what he was referring to?
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The instructor can insist on finishing the flight review, but one needs not stay with him and tell him to pound sand. You the customer can choose your instructor.
 
If he tried to beat you with a stick, I'd say find another instructor. That's no way for an instructor to behave.

On the other hand, his point might be that you technically need a clearance but they differ in how that clearance is delivered. In B you need to hear the phrase "cleared", but in C ATC calling you by your tail number implies clearance. In any case, he should have explained what he was trying to get at instead of beating you with a stick.



Geewiz said:
During the ground school portion of my BFR, the instructor asked me to describe the requirements for entering A; B; C; and D airspace.

I replied that A and B always requires specific clearance before entering, but as a VFR pilot, C and D airspace requires only that communications with the tower is established before entering. He nearly beat me with a stupid stick and adamantly corrected me saying that all controlled airspace requires clearance before entering. When I tried to explain my answer, he beat me some more with the stick and I simply capitulated. But I really felt kind of p**sed.

I felt rattled by this experience and the flight portion showed it when he had me do VOR intercepts under the hood. My brain became a vacuous realm of dead air space.

So...he wants to spend another hour reviewing VOR work on the ground and in the air.

Do I bring my FAR/AIM manual with the appropriate clearance requirements marked and try and discuss this with him? Or do I just let it go and try and get this over with? Maybe my understanding really is wrong?

I'll confess that this is my first BFR and the instructor is a retired commercial pilot who probably has +30k hours compared to my paltry <.2k hours.
Click to expand...
 
BillTIZ said:
Private pilots can enter Class A airspace, private pilots can achieve an instrument rating, get a clearance and fly aircraft capable of climbing above 18,000ft.
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Yup......

During flight testing for my experimental, I contacted ZLC, got a block altitude up to FL 25, remained in that sector, was on the bottle from 12.5 up to 180, then switched to a mask and preceded up to FL 230... Talking to center the whole time. It was still climbing at 200FPM but I bagged the test and headed back to JAC....

All with a PP...

Ps... I picked a crystal clear day to do the test...:yes:
 
A requires an IFR flight plan. Clearance into A is implied when you receive your IFR clearance that includes instructions into that airspace. You never will hear "Cleared into Alpha".

B is the same as A for IFR, VFR requires an explicit clearance to enter

C&D only require establishing communication with the ACT facility that has jurisdiction over that airspace...which is not necessarily even the tower. It can be the approach control. Once the controller says your tail number, communication has been established. Zero clearance is required to enter but you are required to follow their instructions to remain clear if given and follow instructions within that airspace.

E is technically controlled airspace as mentioned and Captain Nordo can fly there. Your CFI needs to refresh his understanding of the term "controlled airspace"

Based on your description of your encounter your CFI is an idiot when it comes to VFR ops. Find a new one.
 
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You can look up in the FARs to get the exact requirements for entering each airspace.
 
How difficult are most BFRs? I need an annual check-out for my timeshare, but how difficult are BFRs supposed to be? Nearly the same as the original checkride? I'm not due for my first BFR until next August.
 
sarangan said:
On the other hand, his point might be that you technically need a clearance but they differ in how that clearance is delivered.
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If that was his point, he was still mistaken.

In B you need to hear the phrase "cleared", but in C ATC calling you by your tail number implies clearance.
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No, it doesn't. The term "clearance" has a specific technical meaning in aviation, and ATC permission to enter Class C or D does not constitute a clearance.
 
sarangan said:
If he tried to beat you with a stick, I'd say find another instructor. That's no way for an instructor to behave.

On the other hand, his point might be that you technically need a clearance but they differ in how that clearance is delivered. In B you need to hear the phrase "cleared", but in C ATC calling you by your tail number implies clearance. In any case, he should have explained what he was trying to get at instead of beating you with a stick.
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Class C VFR communications is ****NOT**** a clearance in any FAA sense of the word.

You don't need clearance or any permission to enter class C, D, or E controlled airspace.
 
flyingron said:
Class C VFR communications is ****NOT**** a clearance in any FAA sense of the word.

You don't need clearance or any permission to enter class C, D, or E controlled airspace.
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No "permission" needed to enter, but two-way communication with your tail number must be established. That communication may well consist of "N1234, remain clear of the class D (or C), check back in 5 minutes."
So the controlling facility retains a "veto" right over their airspace, and may decline permission to enter.
 
woodchucker said:
How difficult are most BFRs? I need an annual check-out for my timeshare, but how difficult are BFRs supposed to be? Nearly the same as the original checkride? I'm not due for my first BFR until next August.
Click to expand...


Don't sweat the small stuff.
BFRs are supposed to emphasize safety and not instructor elitism or chest pounding.
The likelihood is that a Timeshare annual will be more demanding than the typical BFR -- which will more likely emphasize that you are operatively competent to bring back an aircraft without dings in it --- or in someone else's property
 
sarangan said:
On the other hand, his point might be that you technically need a clearance but they differ in how that clearance is delivered. In B you need to hear the phrase "cleared", but in C ATC calling you by your tail number implies clearance. In any case, he should have explained what he was trying to get at instead of beating you with a stick.
Click to expand...
My guess is that the instructor was thinking in a different context than the OP. You DO need a clearance to enter any controlled airspace when IFR. If the airspace is uncontrolled, you neither need a clearance to operate IFR there nor will ATC issue one (except when you're departing a field to enter controlled airspace 700 or 1200 feet above the surface).

So my question to the OP would be: are you sure the context of the discussion was general operations and not specifically IFR operations?

(Of course, it's possible that this old airline pilot hasn't operated VFR in umpteen years and has even forgotten that there is such a thing. More likely, he's just confused.)
 
N801BH said:
Yup......

During flight testing for my experimental, I contacted ZLC, got a block altitude up to FL 25, remained in that sector, was on the bottle from 12.5 up to 180, then switched to a mask and preceded up to FL 230... Talking to center the whole time. It was still climbing at 200FPM but I bagged the test and headed back to JAC....

All with a PP...

Ps... I picked a crystal clear day to do the test...:yes:
Click to expand...

With prior permission, you can enter A without IFR...gliders doing mountain wave do it all the time.
 
Any instructors that do "BFRs" is way behind the times. I would find a new instructor and just do a Flight Review instead.
 
BillTIZ said:
Private pilots can enter Class A airspace, private pilots can achieve an instrument rating, get a clearance and fly aircraft capable of climbing above 18,000ft.
Click to expand...

This. I've done it regularly with my single-engine plane (on oxygen, of course).
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Are you saying that if approach ignores my call, I can enter the C anyways?
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Not if ignored...if they say "aircraft calling, standby" or ignore you...you can not enter C or D. IF they say "N12XYZ, standby" on your initial call up you have established communication with ACT and can enter C or D unless instructed otherwise. No permission needed. As soon as they repeat you tail # in any context "communication" is considered established for the purposes of legally being able to enter C or D...assuming you are dealing with the ATC facility that has jurisdiction over that space.

That is in the pure legal sense. Practical sense is to advise if you wanna transition C or D airspace, but there is zero requirement to do so.
 
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Class A - Need IFR clearance
Class B - VFR if explicitly cleared to enter the airspace. You must hear something like "cleared into Bravo..."
Class C - You need to establish 2-way communication. The controller must acknowledge with your callsign. As Shawn says if the tower says "standby" without your callsign you cannot enter.
Class D - establish communication with the tower. Just calling the tower is sufficient. They don't have to answer in order to enter.
Class E, G - no communication required.
 
Shawn said:
Not if ignored...if they say "aircraft calling, standby" or ignore you...you can not enter C or D. IF they say "N12XYZ, standby" on your initial call up you have established communication with ACT and can enter C or D unless instructed otherwise. No permission needed. As soon as they repeat you tail # in any context "communication" is considered established for the purposes of legally being able to enter C or D...assuming you are dealing with the ATC facility that has jurisdiction over that space.

That is in the pure legal sense. Practical sense is to advise if you wanna transition C or D airspace, but there is zero requirement to do so.
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The point of my post, was that you do need "permission" to enter in the form of your call sign being read back.

I realize it's a play on words and someone will say I'm wrong, that's fine by me:)
 
VictorValencia said:
Class D - establish communication with the tower. Just calling the tower is sufficient. They don't have to answer in order to enter.
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91.129 says two-way communications must be established prior to entry and while operating in the class D.
 
We're getting into semantics here. As the rule is written, 2 way communication is not a clearance, nor is it considered "permission". You can call it what you want in your head, or whatever makes it easy to remember, but the answer to the question is "you must establish and maintain 2 way communication to enter class C or D airspace"

Then look up the definition of 2 way communication.

You guys are making it more complicated than it is, and in the case of the OP his "instructor" is just plain confused.

Why do so many pilots choose to make something so simple into something so complicated?
 
VictorValencia said:
Class D - establish communication with the tower. Just calling the tower is They don't have to answer in order to enter.
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They do have to at least respond with your call sign to establish communication to enter. If Tower ignores you or does not respond on initial call up, you have not yet met the requirement to enter their D airspace.

StinkBug said:
Why do so many pilots choose to make something so simple into something so complicated?
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Well, as pointed out by this thread, the fine details of the rules and regulations of VFR airspace are not fully understood by everyone...which is the great thing about this board...we can all learn a bit more and clear up any confusions cuz as we all know, there is a lot of incorrect information being taught by even some CFI's.

fiveoboy01 said:
The point of my post, was that you do need "permission" to enter in the form of your call sign being read back.

I realize it's a play on words and someone will say I'm wrong, that's fine by me:)
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Yeah, you are correct and we are talking semantics. "Permission" or "clearance" in terms of VFR in my mind implies a verbal instruction to enter as permissions and clearances are typically asked for and given verbally. "Authorization" to enter may be a better term to use as once communication is established you are authorized to enter and nothing else has to be given or said to enter.
 
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StinkBug said:
nor is it considered "permission".
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permission - noun:

authorization granted to do something; consent

If it's not, then what is it??

"you must establish and maintain 2 way communication to enter class C or D airspace"
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The other "half" of the 2-way communication is ATC reading your tail back, and if they don't, you're not authorized to enter.

Semantics I agree, but neither of us is "wrong". Our personality types lead us to over-analyze everything:)
 
note where I said "look up the definition of 2 way communication". I'm talking about FAA definitions, not dictionary ones. The 2 are often not the same.

We are all grasping at straws at this point though. I think at this point we've clarified what the rules are, and are now just making them confusing again.
 
And again, to be clear, you CAN fly in Class A VFR, without even a radio. You just need to pre-arrange it with ATC. I know many who have done it.
 
JeffDG said:
And again, to be clear, you CAN fly in Class A VFR, without even a radio. You just need to pre-arrange it with ATC. I know many who have done it.
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No doubt...there is also a way to fly through LAX bravo VFR without even talking to ATC, let alone a Bravo clearance, so there are exceptions to the rules...but understanding the basic rules are critical to know when and where those exceptions can exist.
 
Yup, get a new instructor.

Despite what many of these airline gods would like you to believe, flying a transport catagory jet IFR all the time doesn't mean you know, or are even very good at, VFR GA ops.

...or flying a pits or tailwheel, if I had a dollar for every retired airline guy who thought his million hours in a airliner ment jack to tailwheel flying, I'd be frickin rich.
 
Shawn said:
No doubt...there is also a way to fly through LAX bravo VFR without even talking to ATC, let alone a Bravo clearance, so there are exceptions to the rules...but understanding the basic rules are critical to know when and where those exceptions can exist.
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It's not really an exception to the rule, it is written into the rules.

If people can argue about 2-way-communications and permission, this is at least less pedantic.
 
StinkBug said:
note where I said "look up the definition of 2 way communication". I'm talking about FAA definitions, not dictionary ones. The 2 are often not the same.

We are all grasping at straws at this point though. I think at this point we've clarified what the rules are, and are now just making them confusing again.
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Yep.

If you're on the street and you yell "Hey, Jeff!"

If I say "Hey, Dallas", we've established 2 way communications.

If I say "Hey, Dallas, come on in and grab a beer", I've given permission.

Either way, you're cool coming on my lawn.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
The point of my post, was that you do need "permission" to enter in the form of your call sign being read back.

I realize it's a play on words and someone will say I'm wrong, that's fine by me:)
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Using the work "permission" in aviation communications makes my teeth hurt. Controllers issue clearances and instructions. You are the PIC...tell the controller what you want to do: "Request taxi instructions;" "Ready for takeoff;" (to ground control: "1234x clear of the runway;" Ground: "Taxi to the ramp?"

Ground controllers are not supposed to use the word "cleared."

Bob Gardner
 
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JeffDG said:
Yep.

If you're on the street and you yell "Hey, Jeff!"

If I say "Hey, Dallas", we've established 2 way communications.

If I say "Hey, Dallas, come on in and grab a beer", I've given permission.

Either way, you're cool coming on my lawn.
Click to expand...

LOL, good one!
 
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