Required to overfly the VOR?

[DesertNomad]

I recently flew out of KAPC (Napa, CA) on runway 24 and was given the following clearance:

After t/o: SGD-SIGNA-TRUCK-KRNO

So I took off on 24 and flew a heading of about 235 towards SGD. The outbound heading was 35, so I had to make a 160 degree right turn. My GTN750 drew this track as a turn well before the VOR to correctly intercept the outbound path after a standard rate turn.

ATC didn't say anything specific, but in cases like this am I expected to overfly the VOR?

Enroute I always lead turns, but they are never 160 degree turns of course.

 

[mscard88]

I don't know the official rule on this, but using automation will cause the earlier turn. I know when I flew with FMS it did that and was accepted by ATC.

Manually I would think you'd fly to the VOR and turn when you displayed station passage. I imagine 'cheating' a bit by turning a little early wouldn't be noticed.

 

[flyingron]

If you are flying via VOR, you kind of have to fly over it so that you can identify station passage.

If you are using area navigation, unless you're specifically told this is a FLY OVER waypoint, then you can lead the turn.

 

[luvflyin]

I recently flew out of KAPC (Napa, CA) on runway 24 and was given the following clearance:

After t/o: SGD-SIGNA-TRUCK-KRNO

So I took off on 24 and flew a heading of about 235 towards SGD. The outbound heading was 35, so I had to make a 160 degree right turn. My GTN750 drew this track as a turn well before the VOR to correctly intercept the outbound path after a standard rate turn.

ATC didn't say anything specific, but in cases like this am I expected to overfly the VOR?

Enroute I always lead turns, but they are never 160 degree turns of course.

AIM 5-3-5 talks about this. Leading the turn is not only 'ok,' it's recommended in certain situations.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If you are flying via VOR, you kind of have to fly over it so that you can identify station passage.

If you are using area navigation, unless you're specifically told this is a FLY OVER waypoint, then you can lead the turn.

Back when I got my instrument rating, we didn't have GPS, and we still led the turn.

 

[aterpster]

Back when I got my instrument rating, we didn't have GPS, and we still led the turn.

We didn't have DME either. Nonetheless, we did mostly a flyby based on CDI movement. How's that for going waaay back?

 

[MauleSkinner]

We didn't have DME either. Nonetheless, we did mostly a flyby based on CDI movement. How's that for going waaay back?

I used DR.

And no, Wally, I'm not claiming to be older than you, just dumber.

 

[James331]

In garmin/fms we trust.

Only time I dial a VOR is for my 30 day checks.

 

[aterpster]

I used DR.

And no, Wally, I'm not claiming to be older than you, just dumber.

You're not either one.

 

[Clip4]

I recently flew out of KAPC (Napa, CA) on runway 24 and was given the following clearance:

After t/o: SGD-SIGNA-TRUCK-KRNO

So I took off on 24 and flew a heading of about 235 towards SGD. The outbound heading was 35, so I had to make a 160 degree right turn. My GTN750 drew this track as a turn well before the VOR to correctly intercept the outbound path after a standard rate turn.

ATC didn't say anything specific, but in cases like this am I expected to overfly the VOR?

Enroute I always lead turns, but they are never 160 degree turns of course.

In the world of automated cockpits, ATC would have been more concerned had you delayed the turn until crossing the VOR.

 

[mscard88]

We didn't have DME either. Nonetheless, we did mostly a flyby based on CDI movement. How's that for going waaay back?

Ditto here.

 

[Palmpilot]

Don't forget how to use those VORs!

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2018/Apr/NTC_18-19_GPS_Flight_Advisory.pdf

 

[Eric Gleason]

How far from the VOR were you when you started the turn?

A good friend is a former controller. He always knew the exact moment to call for clearance to the next VOR on the route. Every single time he’d call when we were about 10 miles from the station. “Boston Center, 16E.” “16E, cleared direct XYZ.” He rarely asked, they knew what he wanted when he got their attention.”

 

[TheGolfPilot]

If they don't specify to flyover and it isn't published as a flyover point, I don't think ATC cares as long as it looks like you are going in the correct direction. I may be wrong but I remember reading something somewhere about remaining within 4 miles of the route so on a turn you don't want to lead so far out as to put you greater than 4 miles from the VOR in your turn. That is a long way away... Even in a fast airplane. With GPS that doesn't even make sense.

 

[luvflyin]

How far from the VOR were you when you started the turn?

A good friend is a former controller. He always knew the exact moment to call for clearance to the next VOR on the route. Every single time he’d call when we were about 10 miles from the station. “Boston Center, 16E.” “16E, cleared direct XYZ.” He rarely asked, they knew what he wanted when he got their attention.”

Ah Ha! That's 'insider trading.'

 

[luvflyin]

If they don't specify to flyover and it isn't published as a flyover point, I don't think ATC cares as long as it looks like you are going in the correct direction. I may be wrong but I remember reading something somewhere about remaining within 4 miles of the route so on a turn you don't want to lead so far out as to put you greater than 4 miles from the VOR in your turn. That is a long way away... Even in a fast airplane. With GPS that doesn't even make sense.

AIM 5-3-5. It doesn't say specifically stay within 4 miles of the VOR, but you need to stay within 4 miles of the airway centerline. Turns in excess of 90 degrees could have you beginning the turn farther than 4 miles from the VOR. The airway you are turning 'to' could already be overlapping the one you are turning 'from.'

 

[Salty]

AIM 5-3-5 talks about this. Leading the turn is not only 'ok,' it's recommended in certain situations.

Oh, but I'm sure we can debate it for nearly 5 more pages if we want to. Thanks for the reference, it's pretty clear.