Reporting low altitude aircraft?

[Sac Arrow]

I didn't decide that it was an "emergency" to "waste water" - it's not to spite the pilot or "show anyone", it's in the regs.

As of August 1st wasting water in California will be in the regs too.

My take on it is if the pilot in question is actually posing a hazard, well then okay. Going after him simply because he wasn't technically in compliance with the regs sounds kind of lame to me. In your original post, you painted the situation as if he was just doing some low passes over an empty field. Crop dusters routinely come close to building structures, probably also in technical non-compliance of the regs.

 

[overdrive148]

As of August 1st wasting water in California will be in the regs too.

My take on it is if the pilot in question is actually posing a hazard, well then okay. Going after him simply because he wasn't technically in compliance with the regs sounds kind of lame to me. In your original post, you painted the situation as if he was just doing some low passes over an empty field. Crop dusters routinely come close to building structures, probably also in technical non-compliance of the regs.

There are plenty of stupid laws and regulations in California, I will agree with you there. Few related to anything important or major, unlike the FAR's (also in my opinion).

No radio call either. After buzzing the field a few times, the pilot flew over the town at the same low altitude

That's what I said in the OP. If it was a guy just out doing low passes over open fields, I'd probably not bother. The guy was directly over the terminal and then flew over the city. He was pushing 500-600 ft AGL, maybe a bit lower, and the chapel tower is 400" AGL. I consider that to be pretty dangerous as well as in violation of the FAR's. Definitely not reporting crop dusters, although I think they're legal at low altitude through an exemption or something like that.

//edit
Oh, the "field" threw you off. I see it now - I meant airfield, sorry for the confusion!

 

[MachFly]

Are you willing to live with the consequences of not reporting it and it becoming a bunch of fatalities on the ground? You'd think a real acro pilot would know that there are aerobatic areas for a reason, and those are assuredly over sparsely populated areas and not directly over towns. Just my two cents.

I'm not putting his certificate on the line - he is, by flying too low over populated areas. The FSDO gets to review the information and decide if that's a necessary course of action, not me.

Why would I need to live with that consequence? I'm ain't responsible for what some guy does with his plane. Once I call the FAA though, I become responsible.

 

[MachFly]

There are plenty of stupid laws and regulations in California, I will agree with you there. Few related to anything important or major, unlike the FAR's (also in my opinion).

Are you the same overdrive148 who said:

but don't pick and choose what FARs you want to follow

So let me get this straight, you think all FARs must be followed to the letter (I'm not saying their not), but California's laws shouldn't be?

 

[MachFly]

That's what I said in the OP. If it was a guy just out doing low passes over open fields, I'd probably not bother. The guy was directly over the terminal and then flew over the city. He was pushing 500-600 ft AGL, maybe a bit lower, and the chapel tower is 400" AGL. I consider that to be pretty dangerous as well as in violation of the FAR's. Definitely not reporting crop dusters, although I think they're legal at low altitude through an exemption or something like that.!

Wow, this whole thread and you're not even sure.

 

[overdrive148]

Are you the same overdrive148 who said:



So let me get this straight, you think all FARs must be followed to the letter (I'm not saying their not), but California's laws shouldn't be?

I didn't say I didn't follow them - I don't go out and, say, buy a Dragunov even though it's banned by name in California because I think it's stupid to have them banned. I didn't say I liked that specific, or any other regulation either. What's the point you're driving at?

So let me get this straight, you think all FARs must be followed to the letter (I'm not saying their not), but California's laws shouldn't be?

So you went from saying that he shouldn't be reported to claiming you're not saying the regulations should be violated? The regs say he'd have to be 1000 above the tallest object which would be 1400 feet, something he was clearly not, even though you poke at me not having a specific altitude other than 500-600 feet. Sorry, he was at exactly 550 feet. Maybe he was at 700 feet? Obviously aircraft stay at one altitude when maneuvering haphazardly.

I'll be sure to watch for the yellow and black tape telling me that this is a no-estimation zone next time

 

[MachFly]

I didn't say I didn't follow them - I don't go out and, say, buy a Dragunov even though it's banned by name in California because I think it's stupid to have them banned. I didn't say I liked that specific, or any other regulation either. What's the point you're driving at?

I just can't seem to find any consistency in your posts. Seems like this guy that did that low pass offended you in some way, or when you were doing you're training you were taught that anyone going remotely low will surely kill everyone within line of sight.

 

[Palmpilot]

...

I like your user ID!

 

[SkyHog]

Overdrive and anyone praising him are douches and not anyone I'd like to associate with. You have no "responsibility" to report anything. If the govt wants to catch him, let them. Nothing says you need to sell someone out, especially when their actions have nothing to do with you.

Butt out, get a life, and live it.

****ing losers.

 

[SkyHog]

By the way, which FAR are you following by reporting him? You made reference to you following the FARs, so obviously there must be one, right?

 

[MachFly]

Overdrive and anyone praising him are douches and not anyone I'd like to associate with. You have no "responsibility" to report anything. If the govt wants to catch him, let them. Nothing says you need to sell someone out, especially when their actions have nothing to do with you.

Butt out, get a life, and live it.

****ing losers.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[overdrive148]

Overdrive and anyone praising him are douches and not anyone I'd like to associate with. You have no "responsibility" to report anything. If the govt wants to catch him, let them. Nothing says you need to sell someone out, especially when their actions have nothing to do with you.

Butt out, get a life, and live it.

****ing losers.

Whoa buddy, no need to start slinging like that :/

Okay, since you said that his actions have 'nothing to do with me', what if I was in the pattern and the guy cut across my flight path? What if my girlfriend was at the college under his low passes today? Then would it be legitimate to report it? That's a pretty weak argument

 

[SkyHog]

Whoa buddy, no need to start slinging like that :/

Okay, since you said that his actions have 'nothing to do with me', what if I was in the pattern and the guy cut across my flight path? What if my girlfriend was at the college under his low passes today? Then would it be legitimate to report it? That's a pretty weak argument

You're right. Those are weak arguments. Are any of them true?

If not, you have hypotheticals and you were NOT affected.

Butt out.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Overdrive and anyone praising him are douches and not anyone I'd like to associate with. You have no "responsibility" to report anything. If the govt wants to catch him, let them. Nothing says you need to sell someone out, especially when their actions have nothing to do with you.

Butt out, get a life, and live it.

****ing losers.

Well said.

 

[PW_Plack]

What about when you know with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY a plane was not legal?

I couldn't care less if he's illegal. Laws and liability precedent have become so oppressive today that I feel calling the cops is often the wrong thing to do morally. If a person behaves recklessly but is not endangering anyone but himself, I applaud his spirit and might even applaud his civil disobedience.

I know of a guy who appears to have been a pretty good pilot, and put a thousand PIC hours on a Champ without ever getting a pilot certificate. He was safer than many certificated pilots I know, and I feel no need to report someone in such a case.

But if the guy cited in the OP was buzzing an airport NORDO and doing low-level turns over a populated area, he's putting at risk people who were given no choice in accepting that risk. I'd favor personal contact first, with a warning that a follow-up to the authorities, including the video of the first offense, would follow if he didn't knock it off.

There's also the question: If you report him and the FAA pulls his ticket, given his level of respect for the regs, will it even stop him from flying?

 

[MachFly]

Whoa buddy, no need to start slinging like that :/

Okay, since you said that his actions have 'nothing to do with me', what if I was in the pattern and the guy cut across my flight path? What if my girlfriend was at the college under his low passes today? Then would it be legitimate to report it? That's a pretty weak argument

If you're in the pattern you see and avoid. If your girlfriend was at that college under his low pass she would have seen a beautiful sight of a low flying airplane.

 

[ClimbnSink]

I dont know how the whole drunk flying thing came into play here but regardless its going to be reported and yes i will put his license on the line and show the FSDO that clip

If you are a jump pilot that is not the standard you want to live by. We know you, and your charges(whom you take the CFR bust for) are never 100% CFR kosher on any given day. Perhaps you should start building up some blind eye forgiveness karma you might need it some day.

 

[overdrive148]

You're right. Those are weak arguments. Are any of them true?

If not, you have hypotheticals and you were NOT affected.

Butt out.

My girlfriend does work on the campus, I was in the terminal that he buzzed, and a friend on the airport was in a hangar that he buzzed as well.

Do I get my signed and stamped "something to do with it" badge now?

Also, there's no FAR that I know of that requires you to report people for anything whatsoever. I don't get how that fits into your point but as an airman I like to believe that I have a responsibility to report it for safety's sake. Since y'know, I have the badge now of officially affected by this turn of events.

Blasted goodie two shoes pilots trying to follow the rules and encourage safety!

Maybe you shouldn't even be posting Nick, you weren't even affected by the buzzing

 

[MachFly]

My girlfriend does work on the campus, I was in the terminal that he buzzed, and a friend on the airport was in a hangar that he buzzed as well.

Yeah and what if a satellite falls and it's trajectory randomly puts it on top of your head? If you want to be perfectly safe buy yourself a nuclear bunker and live there.

 

[MachFly]

Maybe you shouldn't even be posting Nick, you weren't even affected by the buzzing

In that case neither was anyone else on this forum, so why are you discussing it with us? I'll even go a step further, FAA wasn't effected by the buzzing either, why would you report it to them?

 

[overdrive148]

Yeah and what if a satellite falls and it's trajectory randomly puts it on top of your head? If you want to be perfectly safe buy yourself a nuclear bunker and live there.

So you're equating a random event that can't be predicted with an event that can be easily reported and prevented, and exists in the FAR's to do just that. Am I missing something?

In that case neither was anyone else on this forum, so why are you discussing it with us? I'll even go a step further, FAA wasn't effected by the buzzing either, why would you report it to them?

By the way, talking about my girlfriend/myself/my friend here on the airport was a direct response to the asinine statement of "if it doesn't affect you, butt out" to prove, y'know, that I am affected. The shot back was more of a jab than anything else.

I was asking for how to report it not about anyone's opinion as to whether I should report it or not

 

[Timmer]

Overdrive and anyone praising him are douches and not anyone I'd like to associate with. You have no "responsibility" to report anything. If the govt wants to catch him, let them. Nothing says you need to sell someone out, especially when their actions have nothing to do with you.

Butt out, get a life, and live it.

****ing losers.

Glad to see adult conversations going on here.

There is a middle ground, you know, between reporting the old lady watering her lawn for five minutes too long and not calling the cops as you watch someone attack another with an axe.

While history has its share of atrocities that err too close to the former, much of history can be attributed towards being too close to the later. For the gray area most of this conversation is discussing, though, I think your words amazingly harsh. Part of that is because I don't get it. Turning a blind eye has never been a good solution.

That said, for someone going a little too fast on the freeway, someone doing something thoughtless for a moment, or someone flying a touch out of bounds, yeah, we don't want to be our own worst enemy on the rules and I also agree on those types of offenses, I much rather err on the side of non-reporting.

Really, though, my opinion doesn't matter to anyone except to me. I'm only commenting because I'd rather see issues discussed in a manner which enables us to think about the issue rather than acting like third graders throwing stones.

 

[MachFly]

So you're equating a random event that can't be predicted with an event that can be easily reported and prevented, and exists in the FAR's to do just that. Am I missing something?

What's a difference between a satellite falling and a low airplane falling?

 

[ClimbnSink]

So you're equating a random event that can't be predicted with an event that can be easily reported and prevented, and exists in the FAR's to do just that. Am I missing something?

If it can be easily prevented why does it still happen? Grow up child, they taught you the wrong way to be in school. We sound like they used to warn us the Russians supposedly were.

 

[Zeldman]

Using the video and the aircraft's known dimensions, its distance and height can be calculated to double-check the witnesses' perceptions.

True, but these services aren't free. Who is going to pay for it?

If you feel the need to do something, call the FSDO and ask to speak to a fed. Tell him what you observed and ask what to do next. If he wants to talk more about it, let him know you have a video and then let him decide the next course of action.

I would prefer the man to man approach myself. Sometimes that makes a deeper impact than hiding and telling someone else.

 

[FastEddieB]

A fellow rented my Citabria in 1996, flew it over gross, did low level aerobatics without parachutes and crashed and died, taking a teenage passenger with him.

In the newspaper report, people said he had "often entertained" crowds with aerobatic displays.

Maybe if someone had reported his antics, enforcement action may have saved his life and that of his teenage passenger. If any of those watching were fellow pilots, maybe they just didn't want to get him in trouble.

But I'm sure their deaths only interested a small circle of friends.

 

[ClimbnSink]

A fellow rented my Citabria in 1996, flew it over gross, did low level aerobatics and crashed and died, taking a teenage passenger with him.

In the newspaper report, people said he had often amused crowds with aerobatic displays.

Maybe if someone had reported his antics, enforcement action may have saved his life and that of his teenage passenger.

But I'm sure their deaths only interested a small circle of friends.

Easy fix, ban teenagers from riding in GA airplanes. You can't stop the 'bad stuff' without stopping what you and the rest of us do.

 

[overdrive148]

Glad to see adult conversations going on here.

There is a middle ground, you know, between reporting the old lady watering her lawn for five minutes too long and not calling the cops as you watch someone attack another with an axe.

While history has its share of atrocities that err too close to the former, much of history can be attributed towards being too close to the later. For the gray area most of this conversation is discussing, though, I think your words amazingly harsh. Part of that is because I don't get it. Turning a blind eye has never been a good solution.

That said, for someone going a little too fast on the freeway, someone doing something thoughtless for a moment, or someone flying a touch out of bounds, yeah, we don't want to be our own worst enemy on the rules and I also agree on those types of offenses, I much rather err on the side of non-reporting.

Really, though, my opinion doesn't matter to anyone except to me. I'm only commenting because I'd rather see issues discussed in a manner which enables us to think about the issue rather than acting like third graders throwing stones.

If he was out buzzing a field or something, that'd be different. I honestly have an issue with what he was doing in the area and how he was doing it, and so do the regs. That's why I opted to report him.

What's a difference between a satellite falling and a low airplane falling?

I don't know, humor me?

If it can be easily prevented why does it still happen? Grow up child, they taught you the wrong way to be in school. We sound like they used to warn us the Russians supposedly were.

Because apparently there's no shortage of pilots who turn a blind eye to the rules and ends up getting himself, or his passengers, or people on the ground killed because of something easily preventable or that was black and white in the rules. Sound familiar?

A fellow rented my Citabria in 1996, flew it over gross, did low level aerobatics and crashed and died, taking a teenage passenger with him.

In the newspaper report, people said he had often amused crowds with aerobatic displays.

Maybe if someone had reported his antics, enforcement action may have saved his life and that of his teenage passenger.

But I'm sure their deaths only interested a small circle of friends.

Sorry for the loss. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about (to the others who are apparently anti-safety)

Easy fix, ban teenagers from riding in GA airplanes. You can't stop the 'bad stuff' without stopping what you and the rest of us do.

Maybe we should ban older guys who act like teenagers in relation to safety too

 

[Mistake Not...]

Maybe if someone had reported his antics, enforcement action may have saved his life and that of his teenage passenger.

I dunno. I mean, someone might think me a douche bag, and then they wouldn't want to talk to me, 'cause I'm not cool with this sort of thing. I mean, wow, man, like, don't rat your fellow pilots out to the Man. Whatever you can get away with without being caught is our way of fightin' the State, man.

Idiots.

 

[MachFly]

I don't know, humor me?

Me neither. You just sounded like there was a major difference in your previous post.

 

[acrophile]

True, but these services aren't free. Who is going to pay for it?

What services are you referring to? The calculations are simple arithmetic.

 

[overdrive148]

Me neither. You just sounded like there was a major difference in your previous post.

A satellite only falls from the sky once. A dangerous pilot flies multiple times? At least until he ends up killing himself or someone else. Also you can report a pilot to, I dunno, try to make sure he doesn't fly dangerously in the future? GL doing that to the satellite. Kind of a cut and dry point I was trying to make there, I'm still not sure what you're driving at though. Enlighten me maybe?

 

[MachFly]

A satellite only falls from the sky once. A dangerous pilot flies multiple times? At least until he ends up killing himself or someone else. Also you can report a pilot to, I dunno, try to make sure he doesn't fly dangerously in the future? GL doing that to the satellite. Kind of a cut and dry point I was trying to make there, I'm still not sure what you're driving at though. Enlighten me maybe?

Okay now I'm confused what do you have against him flying low? If you're okay with him falling once, what's the problem? It's not like he'll be able to fall twice.

 

[Palmpilot]

Glad to see adult conversations going on here.

There is a middle ground, you know, between reporting the old lady watering her lawn for five minutes too long and not calling the cops as you watch someone attack another with an axe.

While history has its share of atrocities that err too close to the former, much of history can be attributed towards being too close to the later. For the gray area most of this conversation is discussing, though, I think your words amazingly harsh. Part of that is because I don't get it. Turning a blind eye has never been a good solution.

That said, for someone going a little too fast on the freeway, someone doing something thoughtless for a moment, or someone flying a touch out of bounds, yeah, we don't want to be our own worst enemy on the rules and I also agree on those types of offenses, I much rather err on the side of non-reporting.

Really, though, my opinion doesn't matter to anyone except to me. I'm only commenting because I'd rather see issues discussed in a manner which enables us to think about the issue rather than acting like third graders throwing stones.

Amen to that.

 

[redtail]

Man, all of this silly babbling about 'ratting out' a fellow pilot is foolish.

Just follow your gut and use your best judgement.

IF in your honest opinion, his behavior is careless and reckless, report his ass and maybe he'll remain...wreck-less

This has nothing to do with "watering a lawn" or "blasting loud music"

 

[FastEddieB]

Easy fix, ban teenagers from riding in GA airplanes. You can't stop the 'bad stuff' without stopping what you and the rest of us do.

It sure seems like attempting to stop 'bad stuff' might start with...

...stopping pilots from flying over gross...

...and doing low level aerobatics without a waiver...

...and doing aerobatics with a passenger sans parachutes?

THAT'S the 'bad stuff' links in a chain that led to two deaths.

The comment about banning teenagers came across to me as inane.

Nothing personal, just my take on that particular comment.

 

[overdrive148]

Okay now I'm confused what do you have against him flying low? If you're okay with him falling once, what's the problem? It's not like he'll be able to fall twice.

Are you even reading your own posts? The behavior is preventable and reportable. The regulations say that you can't go flying over populated areas at low altitudes. The FAA says that if pilots do that, then you can call the FSDO and report them and even walks you through the process to encourage the behavior in the interest of safety. That is the difference. A satellite falling from the sky is a random event to you and you can't report it and you can't prevent it. What's so hard to understand about that?

What is the point you were trying to make with the satellite? Maybe I'm just not understanding you.

 

[CharlieTango]

Buzzed you by overflying the field at 500-600'?

Buzzed a hangar, again at 500-600'?

sounds scarey

 

[CharlieTango]

We have a local guy, lives at 5 mile final for 27. He will report me if I overfly at 1,200' for being under 500'. He's an ex deputy sheriff and an ex county supervisor.

I've been reported a number of times for 'going down, into the terrain'.

People are sure what they see with their own eyes.

 

[ClimbnSink]

It sure seems like attempting to stop 'bad stuff' might start with...

...stopping pilots from flying over gross...

...and doing low level aerobatics without a waiver...

...and doing aerobatics with a passenger sans parachutes?

THAT'S the 'bad stuff' links in a chain that led to two deaths.

The comment about banning teenagers came across to me as inane.

Nothing personal, just my take on that particular comment.

Yeah they should make all those things against the rules so no one does them anymore. So simple. Like I said the only way to stop those things is to stop all the other GA things as well. We'd all live longer.