Remote ATC Tower

"This leading-edge project will be the first in the world to integrate both video and track-based surveillance (radar) to provide a comprehensive view of the airport surface and Class D airspace to air traffic controllers working in a remote facility. The high-tech array will provide an enhanced view and situational awareness of the airport environment and Class D airspace that will be superior to that of a traditional airport traffic control tower, with construction, operational and staffing costs dramatically lower than necessary with a traditional control tower."


Many low level towers are one controller operations most of the time. I fail to see how having that controller in a location other than the control tower offers any advantage. I also fail to see how the high-tech array will provide an enhanced view and situational awareness of the airport environment over that of the windows of the control tower. Nor do I see how that array can cost less than glass.
 
I just want to see how well it works in a snowstorm when the cameras get covered. :)
 
Should remove the controllers as well and go completely AI.
 
roncachamp said:
"This leading-edge project will be the first in the world to integrate both video and track-based surveillance (radar) to provide a comprehensive view of the airport surface and Class D airspace to air traffic controllers working in a remote facility. The high-tech array will provide an enhanced view and situational awareness of the airport environment and Class D airspace that will be superior to that of a traditional airport traffic control tower, with construction, operational and staffing costs dramatically lower than necessary with a traditional control tower."

Many low level towers are one controller operations most of the time. I fail to see how having that controller in a location other than the control tower offers any advantage. I also fail to see how the high-tech array will provide an enhanced view and situational awareness of the airport environment over that of the windows of the control tower. Nor do I see how that array can cost less than glass.
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On demand. The single controller will cover multiple airports. (Not saying this is a good idea, just where it is headed).
Further, eventually this could be used to allow TRACON or CENTER to have complete tower control to the remote airport. This is really ideal for small regional airports with commercial service and only have 30-50 actual movements a day.

Tim
 
tspear said:
On demand. The single controller will cover multiple airports. (Not saying this is a good idea, just where it is headed).
Further, eventually this could be used to allow TRACON or CENTER to have complete tower control to the remote airport. This is really ideal for small regional airports with commercial service and only have 30-50 actual movements a day.

Tim
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If this is the future it sure sounds a lot like Leidos.

So.... throwing the grenade... why not privatize it?

LOL
 
1900- "A horseless carriage?!! Why, anyone would be a dang fool idiot to think we could get around without our horses!"
 
tspear said:
On demand. The single controller will cover multiple airports. (Not saying this is a good idea, just where it is headed).
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I'm sure they've considered the simultaneous demand scenario and have that all worked out.

Further, eventually this could be used to allow TRACON or CENTER to have complete tower control to the remote airport. This is really ideal for small regional airports with commercial service and only have 30-50 actual movements a day.
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Really ideal for those locations that don't actually need a control tower.
 
denverpilot said:
If this is the future it sure sounds a lot like Leidos.

So.... throwing the grenade... why not privatize it?

LOL
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Private control towers exist now. I think there will be more of them. I read a few locations, that only because of regulations and union contract requirements, private control towers are actually cheaper. (They avoid the required hours of operations, staffing levels and other items, the towers are also "less capable of multiple operations").

Tim
 
tspear said:
Private control towers exist now. I think there will be more of them. I read a few locations, that only because of regulations and union contract requirements, private control towers are actually cheaper. (They avoid the required hours of operations, staffing levels and other items, the towers are also "less capable of multiple operations").
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What are some locations of these private control towers?
 
Can we stand it up at Alliance for the eclipse? 300 airplanes at an airport with no tower.
 
denverpilot said:
Dunno. Don't tower controllers have a way to stick their head outside a window and get snow in their hair? LOL.
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Never saw an openable window in a tower cab. They generally have a door out to a catwalk though.
 
denverpilot said:
Think any of the other "privatization" ideas won't? Nope.
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Irrelevant. It was asserted that private control control towers exist now. I know of none in the US so I asked for some locations. None received.
 
roncachamp said:
Irrelevant. It was asserted that private control control towers exist now. I know of none in the US so I asked for some locations. None received.
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Fair enough, for your usual level of pedantry. I'm pretty sure for most folks "run by non-FAA employees" is close enough, even if the facility/building was built by FAA.

Technically the thread was started about the "remote" thing which numerous controllers used to say "wouldn't work"... especially when we discussed having centralized/regional backup facilities.

But the privatization debate is fascinating to me. Never seen so many "dyed in the wool" members of the conservative cult (of the two big destructive political cults) scream and cry for big government to remain, harder than this example, in decades. People who've spammed my personal e-mail inbox for DECADES with "smaller government" crap (and still think that comes true, ever...) are currently spamming me with "call your congresscritter and tell them to keep big government!"

ROFLMAO. It's hilarious. Mega-hypocrites.

(And I'm not arguing it either way, but I'm certainly not sending out junk emails like that to anyone. Who'd want to be associated with organizations that lie that hard?)
 
denverpilot said:
Fair enough, for your usual level of pedantry. I'm pretty sure for most folks "run by non-FAA employees" is close enough, even if the facility/building was built by FAA.
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Run by non-FAA employees. Interesting. So in your mind these employees establish their own procedures and set their own standards?

Technically the thread was started about the "remote" thing which numerous controllers used to say "wouldn't work"... especially when we discussed having centralized/regional backup facilities.
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I don't recall anyone saying they wouldn't work. I recall some saying they wouldn't work better or be cheaper.

But the privatization debate is fascinating to me. Never seen so many "dyed in the wool" members of the conservative cult (of the two big destructive political cults) scream and cry for big government to remain, harder than this example, in decades. People who've spammed my personal e-mail inbox for DECADES with "smaller government" crap (and still think that comes true, ever...) are currently spamming me with "call your congresscritter and tell them to keep big government!"
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I'm amazed by how many people advocate fixing health care by nationalizing it and also advocate fixing Air Traffic Control by privatizing it. All of the problems in health care today were caused by government intervention. Health care would be improved by government getting out of it completely. But ATC cannot function outside of government.
 
roncachamp said:
Run by non-FAA employees. Interesting. So in your mind these employees establish their own procedures and set their own standards?
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No, never said that, and never will... but babble and make up whatever you like as an argument I never posed.

roncachamp said:
I don't recall anyone saying they wouldn't work. I recall some saying they wouldn't work better or be cheaper.
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Not worth the time nor effort to dig back and find the posts where folks said it couldn't be done at all, no way could controllers from another area ever possibly memorize all of the stuff necessary, blah blah blah. But it was definitely said. It certainly wasn't a discussion about price.

roncachamp said:
I'm amazed by how many people advocate fixing health care by nationalizing it and also advocate fixing Air Traffic Control by privatizing it. All of the problems in health care today were caused by government intervention. Health care would be improved by government getting out of it completely. But ATC cannot function outside of government.
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Technically the political cult that traditionally wants nationalized health care, also wants nationalized ATC, so not sure who the people are who you're meeting who go completely backward to their cult.

However we ARE seeing people go completely backward to their cult the other direction, at least when it comes to ATC. Even weirder, those same people will point to Leidos and AFSS as a "success"... and Judge Greene busting up the Bell System... and all sorts of other anti-government stuff... but say "privatized ATC" and they run to the arms of government.

Really both cults are about spending more than is taken in, that's all they're really both about at the end of the day. None of it really matters. Arguing over which entity is spending more loan money than another one, and which CEO or exec is making more doing it, is utterly useless without balancing inflow and outflow.
 
denverpilot said:
No, never said that, and never will... but babble and make up whatever you like as an argument I never posed.
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It was a question. If that's not it then please explain what you meant by "run by non-FAA employees".

Not worth the time nor effort to dig back and find the posts where folks said it couldn't be done at all, no way could controllers from another area ever possibly memorize all of the stuff necessary, blah blah blah. But it was definitely said. It certainly wasn't a discussion about price.
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If a remotely operated tower can't be operated better or cheaper than a manned tower there's no reason to contemplate remotely operated towers.

However we ARE seeing people go completely backward to their cult the other direction, at least when it comes to ATC. Even weirder, those same people will point to Leidos and AFSS as a "success"... and Judge Greene busting up the Bell System... and all sorts of other anti-government stuff... but say "privatized ATC" and they run to the arms of government.
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FSS privatization "worked" because FSS was obsolete. The tasks of FSSs and their predecessor facilities had been eliminated or automated or other, better means of providing the services were introduced. FSS shouldn't have been privatized, it should have been eliminated.
 
roncachamp said:
It was a question. If that's not it then please explain what you meant by "run by non-FAA employees".
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Exactly what it says.


roncachamp said:
If a remotely operated tower can't be operated better or cheaper than a manned tower there's no reason to contemplate remotely operated towers.
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Probably a little too late for that argument, since FAA is going to operate one. They're well past the "contemplation" stage, it would appear. Not my decision to make anyway, so why the eff do I care? They're going to do whatever they want to anyway, as you've already pointed out.

roncachamp said:
FSS privatization "worked" because FSS was obsolete. The tasks of FSSs and their predecessor facilities had been eliminated or automated or other, better means of providing the services were introduced. FSS shouldn't have been privatized, it should have been eliminated.
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Again, not my decision to make, but if that's your assertion, I don't mind. I wouldn't be missing anything if the entire Leidos contract were cancelled.

Whole bunches of airports wouldn't be missing much if a large number of towers were closed, either. It's pretty hard to justify the number of towered airports with a couple hundred thousand pilots less than when I started flying.
 
roncachamp said:
Irrelevant. It was asserted that private control control towers exist now. I know of none in the US so I asked for some locations. None received.
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Red Dog Mine near Noatak, AK.

At least it was 12 years ago...
 
denverpilot said:
Let me know which FAA employee is keying the mic in the cab. "Run by" and "managed by" are two different things, pedantry boy.
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Federal Contract Towers are run by the Federal Aviation Administration. Federal Contract Towers are operated by contractors.
 
Cameras are heated, have compressed air / wiper to keep them clean of debris.

 
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