Remote ATC Tower

murphey said:
Jeffco had to change the name because it was no longer in Jefferson county, but in Broomfield. Norco Aka Ft Collins or Ft Love depending on your age, just decided it wanted to be a Big Time Airport, which is silly, since it hasn't had the one scheduled Allegiant flight to Vegas for years. There's no food other than the popcorn in the office.
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They didn't *have* to. They were already Broomfield-Jeffco. They just didn't want to sound like a place a maid service goes shopping for tools. :)
 
murphey said:
Jeffco had to change the name because it was no longer in Jefferson county, but in Broomfield. Norco Aka Ft Collins or Ft Love depending on your age, just decided it wanted to be a Big Time Airport, which is silly, since it hasn't had the one scheduled Allegiant flight to Vegas for years. There's no food other than the popcorn in the office.
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We've had twice a week to Rockford, IL. Woodword opened an office and headquarters is here. Allegiant was full pretty much every trip but the owner decided he wanted to serve Hawaii so pulled the plane. When Allegiant was flying there was a lunch counter in the terminal (after screening). FNL has tried many ways over the years. Just too close to DEN for most to pay.
 
I've often thought that a lot of smaller airports don't really need a full control tower, but do need something other than 122.8 babble to keep paint from being scrapped. Used to be the on field FSS could do this, but outside of Alaska that's gone.

I can see a remote tower being a real safety improvement at a lot of airports that don't need the full in person tower.
 
ColoPilot said:
Just think, the FAA could outsource tower controllers to call centers in India. I heard some of those centers are hurting as some US companies bring their call centers back to the US.

"Podunk Tower, N1234 inbound for landing with delta"
"Please Mr. N1234, it would please me very much if you will land on 23 runway. Thank you very much, have a good day "
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Well, do we address them as "tower" then? Since they are not truly a tower building.
Maybe I'll open with "Podunk camera pole ...". ;)
 
roncachamp said:
Perhaps some would, but it's what those who understand these things would consider a government contractor.
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If they aren't a federal employee, with the feds issuing the W2.. then... its a pedantic nit..

Kind of like calling the current FSS guys "government employees".
 
roncachamp said:
It's pure logic.



The private control tower at Red Dog? There's no control tower there, it's unlikely there ever was.



Clearances do come from towers.

It was asserted that there may be a private control tower at PADG, a brief bit of research shows that there isn't. The airport is shown on the sectional in magenta, airports having control towers are shown in blue. Towered fields show a CT frequency, PADG shows only 123.0, a frequency allocated by the FCC for UNICOM at airports with no control tower. An examination of aerial imagery shows there is no structure resembling a control tower, but does show a ramp area so small that operations at a level approaching the need for a control tower to be impossible.

And then there is Zeldman's description of the operation:

"You are right, there is not a FAA control tower there. It is still a private advisory tower, which on the first position report they will give out current weather, winds, runway braking report, runway condition and advise of any other traffic. But they do weather, which they are well equipped and trained on. They can't give IFR clearances, and it looks like there is not a NDB approach there anymore so it is possibly a FVR only airport now. And it is still a privately owned airport."

That's not a bad description of the services available through Unicom, it does not describe control tower operations.

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I understand that you are so desperate to support your position that you are willing to say anything. First it was towers issued clearances. Now it is towers have to be a different color and they have to have a building which shows up on google earth. Yes I really do understand that in your mind you have to be "right" and someone else has to be wrong. Got. None of that stuff means it isn't a private tower. Sorry. HTH and HAND.
 
Clark1961 said:
I understand that you are so desperate to support your position that you are willing to say anything. First it was towers issued clearances. Now it is towers have to be a different color and they have to have a building which shows up on google earth. Yes I really do understand that in your mind you have to be "right" and someone else has to be wrong. Got. None of that stuff means it isn't a private tower. Sorry. HTH and HAND.
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Actually, all of those things indicate there is no control tower at PADG. There is nothing that indicates there is or has ever been one there.
 
Doggtyred said:
If they aren't a federal employee, with the feds issuing the W2.. then... its a pedantic nit..

Kind of like calling the current FSS guys "government employees".
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Who calls the current FSS guys "government employees"?
 
murphey said:
Jeffco had to change the name because it was no longer in Jefferson county, but in Broomfield.
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Nope. BJC is still in Jefferson County and is owned by Jefferson County. While they list Broomfield as the closest city, it is outside the consolidated Broomfield City/County limits. The name was purely a marketing change.

Now APA, Centennial formerly Arapahoe County is another story. While it is owned by Arapahoe County's airport board, it extends south into Douglas County.
 
roncachamp said:
Actually, all of those things indicate there is no control tower at PADG. There is nothing that indicates there is or has ever been one there.
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Nothing other that when people fly there they contact the tower for clearance? Sorta hard to ignore that fact.

In other words, you can keep dancing and attempting to obfuscate but it just won't work.
 
Clark1961 said:
Nothing other that when people fly there they contact the tower for clearance? Sorta hard to ignore that fact.

In other words, you can keep dancing and attempting to obfuscate but it just won't work.
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There's no tower there for them to contact.
 
roncachamp said:
There's no tower there for them to contact.
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LOL. Other folks say otherwise. Folks who have flown there. Have you been there? In other words, you can keep dancing and attempting to obfuscate but it just won't work.
 
Clark1961 said:
LOL. Other folks say otherwise. Folks who have flown there. Have you been there? In other words, you can keep dancing and attempting to obfuscate but it just won't work.
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Thank you. But it's like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer. It will feel good when you stop.
 
Zeldman said:
Thank you. But it's like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer. It will feel good when you stop.
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No worries. Steve can't stand being exposed so he keeps digging a deeper hole. All of us know it and just watch him dig.
 
Clark1961 said:
LOL. Other folks say otherwise. Folks who have flown there.
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I believe just one folk has said otherwise, but his description of the operation there was not that of a control tower.

Have you been there?
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No. Have you?

In other words, you can keep dancing and attempting to obfuscate but it just won't work.
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I'm the only one who has presented any documentation on the issue. Do you feel that's an attempt to obfuscate?
 
flibmeister said:
Non-Federal Control Towers used to be fairly common-- Gary, Indiana, was one; Lakeland, Florida was another. In the old days, when FAA controllers arrived at LAL for Sun 'N' Fun, all the city-employed controllers went on vacation for the week.

While most NFCT's were converted to FCT's, there may be a few NFCT's left-- Gillette, WY; Valdosta, GA; Portsmouth, NH; and East Hampton, NY, were all NFCT's as recently as 2012, although I don't know if that's still the case.

NFCT's can also be found occasionally at temporary sites, such at air shows or forest fire fighting operations.

FAA direction regarding NFCT's can be found here: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-93B.pdf.
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Deer Valley, DVT, used to be an NFCT. The city ran it for a few years, then the FAA took it. This was long before the Contract Tower program began. Ain't arguing anything here, just a bit of trivia.
 
roncachamp said:
I believe just one folk has said otherwise, but his description of the operation there was not that of a control tower.

No. Have you?

I'm the only one who has presented any documentation on the issue. Do you feel that's an attempt to obfuscate?
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Really Steve? you've presented your opinion many times. Repeating an opinion is not "documentation". Yes you do attempt obfuscation any time you are exposed.
 
Clark1961 said:
Really Steve?
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Really.

you've presented your opinion many times. Repeating an opinion is not "documentation".
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I've stated facts and posted documentation. Reexamine message #78.

Yes you do attempt obfuscation any time you are exposed.
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What did I post that you feel to be obfuscation? Please be specific.
 
Zeldman said:
You are right, there is not a FAA control tower there. It is still a private advisory tower, which on the first position report they will give out current weather, winds, runway braking report, runway condition and advise of any other traffic. But they do weather, which they are well equipped and trained on. They can't give IFR clearances, and it looks like there is not a NDB approach there anymore so it is possibly a FVR only airport now. And it is still a privately owned airport.

Since it is a mine, lots of traffic going in and out that supports the mine and employees. It is not open to the public except for emergency only. And they have a great mess hall. When ever I had to stay on the ground there, I chose going to the mess hall over taking a tour of the mine.

And I see the runway is now paved. Too bad, I always enjoyed watching the Alaska 737s landing on gravel.
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That is a nice runway. 737's really landed there on gravel? Did they have some kind of screen on the engines? Anyway, its a private airport. You can't land there without the owners permission. While I suppose a case could be made that he and his employees really shouldn't be calling themselves "Tower," seeing as how you can't be there without his permission I doubt if the "case" is going to be pursued. If I owned it I just might call myself "Tower" to. Or maybe 'Your Eminence.' "Your Eminance, ASA123 5 mile final." I might even get all froggy and say "Cleared to land." But even if there is a 'tower' there, like a tall skinny building with big glass windows on top, it ain't the "Tower."
 
Yes, I have seen 737s, 727, DC-9s and DC-6/C-54s land on the gravel. The 737 had some sort of gravel guard on the nose wheel, looked more like a ski. Plus there was a stream of air that blew from the bottom front of the engine to help keep foreign material out of the engine. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can explain those extras on the 737.

I also used to go into some LRRS for the military. Same thing. Call on the landline before takeoff to give them a ETA and someone will be on frequency when I get close. They would tell me which direction to land and don't park close to the vehicle on the ramp... Yessir, staying away from the people with automatic weapons, no problem. And make sure the paper work is updated.
 
roncachamp said:
Towers give clearances. No clearances = no control tower.
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Yeah. There could be some entity there masquerading as a Tower. And they could give you a clearance but they have to preface it with "ATC Clears." FSS's do this. There are UNICOMS that do it to. The ATC facility that gives the clearance to the FSS or UNICOM to be relayed to the pilot must also preface it with "ATC Clears."
 
roncachamp said:
Really.



I've stated facts and posted documentation. Reexamine message #78.



What did I post that you feel to be obfuscation? Please be specific.
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I don't "feel" anything to be obfuscation. I know you attempt obfuscation when your errors are exposed. When the obfuscation fails you go into denial. The pattern is clear and repeated many times.
 
Clark1961 said:
I don't "feel" anything to be obfuscation. I know you attempt obfuscation when your errors are exposed. When the obfuscation fails you go into denial. The pattern is clear and repeated many times.
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What did I post that you feel to be errors? Please be specific.
 
roncachamp said:
What did I post that you feel to be errors? Please be specific.
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No "feel" about your error. Sorry. You miss the fact of your error. No worries that you fail to perceive reality. Really.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. There could be some entity there masquerading as a Tower. And they could give you a clearance but they have to preface it with "ATC Clears." FSS's do this. There are UNICOMS that do it to. The ATC facility that gives the clearance to the FSS or UNICOM to be relayed to the pilot must also preface it with "ATC Clears."
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What ATC facility would be relaying a clearance to an unrecognized control tower? And where are there clearance delivery relays available through UNICOM?
 
Harold Rutila said:
What ATC facility would be relaying a clearance to an unrecognized control tower? And where are there clearance delivery relays available through UNICOM?
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Whichever ATC facility had control jurisdiction over the airspace there. I don't know of any particular UNICOM's that do it. In the age of cell phones and a lot more RCO's there probably aren't very many. Here's the documentation on the subject.

From the AIM
4−1−12. Use of UNICOM for ATC Purposes
UNICOM service may be used for ATC purposes,
only under the following circumstances:
a. Revision to proposed departure time.
b. Takeoff, arrival, or flight plan cancellation
time.
c. ATC clearance, provided arrangements are
made between the ATC facility and the UNICOM
licensee to handle such messages.
4−4−2. Clearance Prefix
A clearance, control information, or a response to a
request for information originated by an ATC facility
and relayed to the pilot through an air−to−ground
communication station will be prefixed by “ATC
clears,” “ATC advises,” or “ATC requests.”

From the Controllers order
4−2−2. CLEARANCE PREFIX
a. Prefix a clearance, information, or a request for
information which will be relayed to an aircraft
through a non−ATC facility by stating “A−T−C
clears,” “A−T−C advises,” or “A−T−C requests.”
b. Flight service stations must prefix a clearance
with the appropriate phrase: “ATC clears,” “ATC
advises,” etc.

From the Facility Operation and Administration order
3−2−5. AERONAUTICAL ADVISORY
STATIONS (UNICOM/MULTICOM)
Pursuant to FCC Rules and Regulations, Part 87,
Subpart C, UNICOM stations are not authorized for
ATC purposes other than the relay of certain ATC
information between the pilot and the controller.
Relay of ATC information is limited to:
a. Takeoff, arrival, or flight plan cancellation
times.
b. ATC clearances, provided there is a LOA
between the licensee of the advisory station and the
FAA facility.
 
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