"Remain this frequency, taxi to park"

Timbeck2

Timbeck2

Final Approach
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Timbeck2
Can someone tell me why this phrase is so confusing? At least seven of the pilots I've told this to tonight get off the runway, switch to ground frequency (also me since I'm alone) and ask to taxi to park.

(sigh)
 
Seems clear to me. I did have tower give me full taxi instructions and never say “remain with me”, but I felt it was implied being late and having given full instructions to my parking while still on the runway.

Just curious, is “remain with me” a phrase that’s “in the book”?

what I’m never sure about is when I stop for a quick refuel and they said “remain” should I switch to ground when I’m ready to go again? I always do, because I figure maybe things changed in the last 15 minutes and the ground guy might have come back from the toilet by then.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Can someone tell me why this phrase is so confusing? At least seven of the pilots I've told this to tonight get off the runway, switch to ground frequency (also me since I'm alone) and ask to taxi to park.

(sigh)
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When they do that, do they say "oh shoot, not him again" when you reply?
 
They hear but don’t listen. That’s why we have to repeat everything.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Can someone tell me why this phrase is so confusing? At least seven of the pilots I've told this to tonight get off the runway, switch to ground frequency (also me since I'm alone) and ask to taxi to park.

(sigh)
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Because people don't listen, they just hear what they expect to hear.

Since I've bought the Bonanza, I've been spending a lot more time in the GA airplane altitudes, and I am amazed how many people can't talk on the radio.
 
I get that often, and it seems pretty damned simple to me????
 
Groundpounder said:
Since I've bought the Bonanza, I've been spending a lot more time in the GA airplane altitudes, and I am amazed how many people can't talk on the radio.
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Maybe people who trained at uncontrolled airports and did minimal training at controlled facilities? Dunno.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Can someone tell me why this phrase is so confusing? At least seven of the pilots I've told this to tonight get off the runway, switch to ground frequency (also me since I'm alone) and ask to taxi to park.

(sigh)
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Ignore them. When they come back to Tower and say no ones home at Ground, launch into a that’s why I told you to remain this frequency rant
 
Timbeck2 said:
Can someone tell me why this phrase is so confusing? At least seven of the pilots I've told this to tonight get off the runway, switch to ground frequency (also me since I'm alone) and ask to taxi to park.

(sigh)
Click to expand...
?, I always like hearing that one, one less knob to twist and button to push.

Side question for you, when you're working both do you normally transmit to both? I don't recall hearing tower on ground before but on my last flight, I tuned up ground and was hearing all sorts of takeoff and landing clearances, I got confused for a sec thinking I tuned the wrong frequency till I figured out it was one guy working both. Seemed like a busy fella, so maybe he was just doing that to lighten the load?
 
Timbeck2 said:
Can someone tell me why this phrase is so confusing? At least seven of the pilots I've told this to tonight get off the runway, switch to ground frequency (also me since I'm alone) and ask to taxi to park.

(sigh)
Click to expand...

I almost always get this at my home airport.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Can someone tell me why this phrase is so confusing? At least seven of the pilots I've told this to tonight get off the runway, switch to ground frequency (also me since I'm alone) and ask to taxi to park.
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I don't know, but you might try varying when you give the instruction. You might be giving when they are busy with other tasks associated with the landing and clearing of the runway which increases the chance of them missing part of your instructions. IOW, you might be giving it to them when they aren't yet ready to hear their taxi instructions. Try mixing it up a little bit and see if it makes any difference.
 
maybe they thought there was a park nearby they could taxi up to, you know, have a picnic or something, feed some ducks......
 
Salty said:
Just curious, is “remain with me” a phrase that’s “in the book”?
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Technically, anything is "in the book" because the final instruction is "transmit in an easy to understand manner." In other words, if they don't get it with standard phraseology, just talk normally and see if that works. It doesn't.
 
luvflyin said:
Ignore them. When they come back to Tower and say no ones home at Ground, launch into a that’s why I told you to remain this frequency rant
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Wish I could do that. My next reply will explain why.
 
exncsurfer said:
?, I always like hearing that one, one less knob to twist and button to push.

Side question for you, when you're working both do you normally transmit to both? I don't recall hearing tower on ground before but on my last flight, I tuned up ground and was hearing all sorts of takeoff and landing clearances, I got confused for a sec thinking I tuned the wrong frequency till I figured out it was one guy working both. Seemed like a busy fella, so maybe he was just doing that to lighten the load?
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Yes I do, otherwise there would be a lot of button pushing on my part. There is all the simulcasting when you are clearing someone to land and someone else is asking for engine start and clearance but that just goes with the territory.
 
"Stay with you. Taxi to parking..."
Get this all the time. Sometimes it is, "Taxi to parking via Bravo Echo monitor ground." OP's confused pilot would have his mind blown by that one, I guess.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Mostly, but with some Aussies and US Marines too.
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Is there some War Games operation going on? Is this new that you are 'one holing' it because of Covid staffing? Or have you done it routinely during slow times in the past?
 
Larry in TN said:
I don't know, but you might try varying when you give the instruction. You might be giving when they are busy with other tasks associated with the landing and clearing of the runway which increases the chance of them missing part of your instructions. IOW, you might be giving it to them when they aren't yet ready to hear their taxi instructions. Try mixing it up a little bit and see if it makes any difference.
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Controllers are trained not to talk to aircraft while their nose gear is still in the air. I only talk to them on roll out and when they've slowed enough to exit the runway. They aren't that busy, they just don't pay attention and I'm talking about a C-130 where 5 people hear me at once.
 
luvflyin said:
Is there some War Games operation going on? Is this new that you are 'one holing' it because of Covid staffing? Or have you done it routinely during slow times in the past?
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Yeah some sort of exercise. I don't even ask anymore even though I could, I just don't care. I've endured hundreds of them in 28 years. Yes, one holing because of Covid; there is usually another controller to lighten the load but we've had a couple of pilots come to the tower and test positive the next day. Its wiped us out with people quaranteening at home for two weeks. We don't get "healthy" until the middle of December.
 
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Timbeck2 said:
Yeah some sort of exercise. I don't even ask anymore even though I could, I just don't care. I've endured hundred of them in 28 years. Yes, one holing because of Covid; there is usually another controller to lighten the load but we've had a couple of pilots come to the tower and test positive the next day. Its wiped us out with people quaranteening at home for two weeks. We don't get "healthy" until the middle of December.
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They're just not listening in 'detail.' They are use to landing, Tower makes noises to them about getting off the runway and then they go to ground.
 
Solution (based on taxi diagram for Davis-Monthan AFB):

TWR->Plane: Remain this frequency, taxi to parking.
Plane->GND: Ground, request taxi to parking.
GND->Plane: Turn left on Alpha 4, then left Alpha, right on Charlie, left on Delta, Left on Alpha, Right on Alpha 3, hold short runway 30 and contact Tower.
Plane->GND: ... What's with the weird taxi route? Are you guys okay up there?
GND->Plane: We're fine, just checking if you're listening to anything we say since you already ignored me when I told you to remain on Tower and taxi to parking an hour ago.
 
Not knowing CRM in a C-130, I wonder if the FO has Ground dialed in before you give the instruction. If it's his leg, he flew the landing while the captain (aircraft commander, whatever) did the talking. As soon as they're on the ground, the captain takes over for taxi, putting the FO on the radio.
 
OneCharlieTango said:
Not knowing CRM in a C-130, I wonder if the FO has Ground dialed in before you give the instruction. If it's his leg, he flew the landing while the captain (aircraft commander, whatever) did the talking. As soon as they're on the ground, the captain takes over for taxi, putting the FO on the radio.
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Yeah, but no matter who is the PF, they all have ears.
 
Reminds me of Elizabeth Taylor's 7th husband. She just couldn't find a good man.

In other words, maybe it's not them. Maybe it's you. Or more specifically, maybe that instruction at that time is not conducive to good comprehension. Pilots anticipate a certain sequence of tasks in a certain order, and mentally rehearse their actions so they don't screw it up. If you want them to deviate from what they expect, perhaps you need to do more to call their attention to the deviation.

Suggestions:

1. Separate the transmissions. "Remain this frequency during taxi", wait for acknowledgement, then give taxi instructions.
2. More words. "Remain on tower frequency, do not change to ground".
3. Add the instruction to your ATIS or AWOS when applicable.
 
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I'm not disagreeing with Ed, but...

As a low-time (~200 hours) pilot, even I am not confused by these instructions. The first part - "Remain this frequency" is as clear as it gets. The second could be confusing if they aren't familiar with the taxiways. But, in that case, the next transmission from the aircrew would be (on the same frequency since they followed instructions to 'remain this frequency') to ask for directions to parking...

Again, not really disagreeing, but I just don't see how it would be an issue if the crew just followed the initial instruction to remain this frequency.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Reminds me of Elizabeth Taylor's 7th husband. She just couldn't find a good man.

In other words, maybe it's not them. Maybe it's you. Or more specifically, maybe that instruction at that time is not conducive to good comprehension. Pilots anticipate a certain sequence of tasks in a certain order, and mentally rehearse their actions so they don't screw it up. If you want them to deviate from what they expect, perhaps you need to do more to call their attention to the deviation.

Suggestions:

1. Separate the transmissions. "Remain this frequency during taxi", wait for acknowledgement, then give taxi instructions.
2. More words. "Remain on tower frequency, do not change to ground".
3. Add the instruction to your ATIS or AWOS when applicable.
Click to expand...

These are college educated, base assigned military pilots. I'm not buying that they're so set in their CRM and/or their ways that they can't take a simple instruction and decide to ignore it. They are busier getting vectors to an ILS and they manage to comply with the heading, altitude, etc.

I've seen very few fighters ignore an instruction to remain on tower frequency and taxi to park. I know the answer to this and don't want to offend anyone by sharing it.
 
While I'm on the peeve train...it infuriates me when I get a "wake up call." What I mean is, the first time someone calls even if nobody has talked on the radio for hours is, "tower Pony21" "Pony 21 tower" "Yeah, I just wanted a wind check." Then 20 seconds later..."tower Pony21" :mad::mad::mad::mad2: <---- me

JUST SAY IT MAN!!! WHY MAKE 4 TRANSMISSIONS WHEN 2 WILL DO?!!!
 
Timbeck2 said:
These are college educated, base assigned military pilots. I'm not buying that they're so set in their CRM and/or their ways that they can't take a simple instruction and decide to ignore it. They are busier getting vectors to an ILS and they manage to comply with the heading, altitude, etc.

I've seen very few fighters ignore an instruction to remain on tower frequency and taxi to park. I know the answer to this and don't want to offend anyone by sharing it.
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And yet it happened to you 7 times last night alone. Seems like you have two choices: A) try to figure out why it happens and what you can do differently to change the outcome; or B) continue to sigh on the Internet.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I've seen very few fighters ignore an instruction to remain on tower frequency and taxi to park. I know the answer to this and don't want to offend anyone by sharing it.
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Oh c'mon! You can't start a comment like that and not finish it. This doesn't have anything to do with "the hierarchy of Air Force pilots" that almost every F-16 pilot I've flown with just loves to bring up? ;) ;)
 
Timbeck2 said:
While I'm on the peeve train...it infuriates me when I get a "wake up call." What I mean is, the first time someone calls even if nobody has talked on the radio for hours is, "tower Pony21" "Pony 21 tower" "Yeah, I just wanted a wind check." Then 20 seconds later..."tower Pony21" :mad::mad::mad::mad2: <---- me

JUST SAY IT MAN!!! WHY MAKE 4 TRANSMISSIONS WHEN 2 WILL DO?!!!
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Really? I do this often. Because if I don't, more often than not, when it's been quiet for a long time I have to repeat my request because they aren't paying attention.
 
Ed Haywood said:
And yet it happened to you 7 times last night alone. Seems like you have two choices: A) try to figure out why it happens and what you can do differently to change the outcome; or B) continue to sigh on the Internet.
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Oh I've got a good idea why it happens and there isn't anything I can do short of taxiing their aircraft for them to stop it. And I'll sigh all I want on the internet thank you very much. *flexes along with a stern look*
 
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