"Remain this frequency, taxi to park"

I'm not disagreeing with Ed, but...

As a low-time (~200 hours) pilot, even I am not confused by these instructions. The first part - "Remain this frequency" is as clear as it gets. The second could be confusing if they aren't familiar with the taxiways. But, in that case, the next transmission from the aircrew would be (on the same frequency since they followed instructions to 'remain this frequency') to ask for directions to parking...

Again, not really disagreeing, but I just don't see how it would be an issue if the crew just followed the initial instruction to remain this frequency.

Of course you are not confused by these instructions. You are reading them in your living room with no distractions and plenty of plenty of time to think about the meaning, not hearing them while turning off a runway and saying to yourself "cross line, change freq, contact ground, ask for taxi".
 
Really? I do this often. Because if I don't, more often than not, when it's been quiet for a long time I have to repeat my request because they aren't paying attention.

Even after you just talked to the controller 20 seconds ago? I can understand on initial call up...usually.
 
Oh c'mon! You can't start a comment like that and not finish it. This doesn't have anything to do with "the hierarchy of Air Force pilots" that almost every F-16 pilot I've flown with just loves to bring up? ;) ;)

You're on the right track. ;) From my 28 years of experience doing this I've seen it proven time and time again. Having said that, I've also seen my fair share of bonehead moves and transmissions from fighters as well.

I've even got a few zingers myself floating out in the ether and that from both sides of the microphone.
 
what I’m never sure about is when I stop for a quick refuel and they said “remain” should I switch to ground when I’m ready to go again? I always do, because I figure maybe things changed in the last 15 minutes and the ground guy might have come back from the toilet by then.

I get this a lot at my home field (KSUS - Spirit of St Louis)...and when you start back up after refueling they want you to call Ground.
 
@Timbeck2 - I got this instruction on my first solo as a student. Only difference was order was reversed. "Turn left when able, stay with me". Maybe if you add "Dumbass" at the end :) ?
 
... not hearing them while turning off a runway and saying to yourself "cross line, change freq, contact ground, ask for taxi".

And how is this the controllers fault for not conveying a simple instruction to remain on tower frequency in such a way that they may understand?
 
I get this a lot at my home field (KSUS - Spirit of St Louis)...and when you start back up after refueling they want you to call Ground.

This is true and for good reason. Tower will only offer the "remain my freq.." thing when not much is going on. After you refuel, you don't want to step on anyone trying to land.
 
My usual reply is "To the (ramp, parking, apron, restaurant) with tower, Mooney 642"
I went down to LZU a few weeks ago for the usual lunch run. I was rolling out on the runway and Tower asked where I was parking - “The Flying Machine” - he said “turn right when able, monitor Ground and taxi to the restaurant via whiskey, g’ day.” I replied and read back the instruction. Once I cleared the runway, I changed over to Ground and monitored as I taxied to the restaurant and shortly after, the Ground controller (who was the same guy working tower) says ‘CHEROKEE ON WHISKEY SAY YOUR CALLSIGN!’ I gave him my tail number and he says ‘roger disregard’. I was like ??? you just changed me over to Ground 15 seconds ago! LOL

That was a first.
 
Is it just me, or are controllers at Class D airports more snappy and often times less professional? Maybe it’s just been at the ones I’ve frequented, but I’ve noticed this more than once.
 
I don't have an explanation for ya Ryan. However, there is a lot of student training in Class D. After 8 hours of dealing with all the issues this thread is about, it would be pretty easy to get snappy I would imagine. Having said that, most the ones I've flown to are just great despite the wear and tear student shenanigans may inflict.
 
I don't have an explanation for ya Ryan. However, there is a lot of student training in Class D. After 8 hours of dealing with all the issued this thread is about, it would be pretty easy to get snappy I would imagine. Having said that, most the ones I've flown to are just great despite the wear and tear student shenanigans may inflict.
I think that’s really it in a nutshell. At least two of the Class D airports I’ve been two on several different occasions both have an ATP base on field + other local flight schools. Just seems like I can just about count on hearing a controller or two raise their voice and get snappy at least once during my visit - or maybe it’s just having me around, I dunno! :dunno:
;)
 
I've seen very few fighters ignore an instruction to remain on tower frequency and taxi to park.
A fighter pilot is single-pilot. He isn't in a crew that must coordinate their actions which involve a number of required verbal exchanges. He doesn't have to transfer control from the pilot who landed to the pilot who will taxi. There's a lot going on in the cockpit of a multi-crew airplane between the time that the nose wheel touches down and the aircraft is clear of the runway and configured for taxi-in.

Now, tell me this. Why do controllers working Ground so frequently miss that the pilot included the ATIS code in his initial call to taxi?

"[Facility] Ground, [Callsign], [Location], Taxi with Alpha"

"[Callsign], [Facility] Ground, Runway 23, Taxi via Delta, Novermber, Echo, Hold short Runway 10. Information Alpha is current"

This happens so much that I changed my call up to "... Taxi with Information Alpha" to give it a bit more emphasis.
 
A fighter pilot is single-pilot. He isn't in a crew that must coordinate their actions which involve a number of required verbal exchanges. He doesn't have to transfer control from the pilot who landed to the pilot who will taxi. There's a lot going on in the cockpit of a multi-crew airplane between the time that the nose wheel touches down and the aircraft is clear of the runway and configured for taxi-in.

Now, tell me this. Why do controllers working Ground so frequently miss that the pilot included the ATIS code in his initial call to taxi?

"[Facility] Ground, [Callsign], [Location], Taxi with Alpha"

"[Callsign], [Facility] Ground, Runway 23, Taxi via Delta, Novermber, Echo, Hold short Runway 10. Information Alpha is current"

This happens so much that I changed my call up to "... Taxi with Information Alpha" to give it a bit more emphasis.

I'll tell you exactly why. The ground controller is too busy listening to the story of the flight data controllers date last night that he couldn't be bothered with your ATIS information. I call 'em as I see 'em.

As far as the transfer of control in a crewed aircraft...its an answer, not one I'll buy into especially when they repeat, "okay, we'll turn left next taxiway with you to park." then I hear, ground [callsign] taxi to park.

There is a left seat and a right seat. So you're saying that whoever is flying doesn't work the radios and whoever is working the radios isn't flying. Okay, so assuming the other crew members aren't jumping into those seats to taxi the aircraft - the guy who answered the "remain this frequency, taxi to park" is now "configured" to taxi the aircraft. Wouldn't he be in a better position to remember what I just said and remind the guy who landed the plane who is now on the radios asking ground to park? Let's use a C-130 as an example. There are 5 (five) people in that cockpit with headsets on who just heard me say, "remain this frequency, taxi to park" you would think at least ONE of them would remember.
 
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Can someone tell me why this phrase is so confusing? At least seven of the pilots I've told this to tonight get off the runway, switch to ground frequency (also me since I'm alone) and ask to taxi to park.

(sigh)

Training, exit first taxiway, switch to ground
 
There is a left seat and a right seat. So you're saying that whoever is flying doesn't work the radios and whoever is working the radios isn't flying. Okay, so assuming the other crew members aren't jumping into those seats to taxi the aircraft - the guy who answered the "remain this frequency, taxi to park" is now "configured" to taxi the aircraft. Wouldn't he be in a better position to remember what I just said and remind the guy who landed the plane who is now on the radios asking ground to park?

My guess is you have an FO that's landing and you're giving the instruction just prior to him handing the controls over to the CA, and it's the CA that's reading the instruction back. Don't know much about the nature of C-130 flight crews, but perhaps the FOs are still relatively new and not fully processing your instruction because they're not quite ahead of the airplane yet. CA clears the runway while the FO begins cleaning up - the CA not thinking to mention what you said since he assumes the FO heard it. He keeps taxiing. FO switches to ground and keys up.

(I know CA and FO probably doesn't apply to military stuff, but you get the point!)
 
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My guess is you have an FO that's landing and you're giving the instruction just prior to him handing the controls over to the CA, and it's the CA that's reading the instruction back. Don't know much about the nature of C-130 flight crews, but perhaps the FOs are still relatively new and not fully processing your instruction because they're not quite ahead of the airplane yet. CA clears the runway while the FO begins cleaning up - the CA not thinking to mention what you said since he assumes the FO heard it. He keeps taxiing. FO switches to ground and keys up.

(I know CA and FO probably doesn't apply to military stuff, but it's all I know)

I don't know man...I just don't know. What I DO know is that I'm not going to buy excuses from pilots not paying attention just like the guy above is peeved (and rightly so) because the ground controller didn't pay attention when he said he had the ATIS.
 
I don't know man...I just don't know. What I DO know is that I'm not going to buy excuses from pilots not paying attention just like the guy above is peeved (and rightly so) because the ground controller didn't pay attention when he said he had the ATIS.

You mention that you tend to start talking to the aircraft just prior to their turnoff - I think @Larry in TN 's idea to play around with the timing is a good one. Try giving the instruction a little later - the idea being that the transfer of control has already happened and the FO is forced to give you more attention since he's the one that needs to read it back.

To your point I don't understand it either, but this is definitely one of those situations where there might be a human factors explanation.
 
Can someone tell me why this phrase is so confusing? At least seven of the pilots I've told this to tonight get off the runway, switch to ground frequency (also me since I'm alone) and ask to taxi to park.

I probably missed it but did you say where they are responding to the thread title, Tim?
Because if they are all completely silent after you give that instruction, I would have to guess no one is hearing it.
You note they all switch to ground despite your instruction: were they silent after landing, and up to that point?
 
I've had "monitor this frequency to parking" and or "monitor ground to parking" a lot in Juneau
 
Here is the scenario on a 13,643' runway. The C-130 lands, nose wheel comes down and the engines go into delta. After the engines are out of delta and the C-130 has slowed to the speed of smell, THAT'S when I tell them to remain my frequency, taxi to park. There are 4 taxiways they can use and I tell them to use their favorite one...my actual words.

Having said that, a couple questions:
1. Why is there so much transfer of control going on at the last minute and exactly what is being transferred?
2. Why can't the guy who landed the plane taxi it too? (I don't know if the C-130 is taxied via a wheel which is only on one side or via the rudder pedals.
 
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I probably missed it but did you say where they are responding to the thread title, Tim?
Because if they are all completely silent after you give that instruction, I would have to guess no one is hearing it.
You note they all switch to ground despite your instruction: were they silent after landing, and up to that point?

Um no, as I said, they REPEAT the thread title and STILL switch to ground.
 
That's fine. You asked a question. I gave you my best answer based on flying multi-pilot aircraft since 1991. Use it, or not, as you like.

Perhaps you can answer the questions I had regarding multi-pilot aircraft? You may not be familiar with the C-130 but you're the closest I've got. I'm not here to argue, I'm here to learn and what I learn will be passed on to other controllers. Controllers that I've seen tell aircraft to turn left next taxiway when the nose gear is still in the air.
 
Can’t speak to the C-130 or military procedures, but at my airline the 737 only has a tiller on the CA’s side. So if my FO was the one flying the leg, there’s going to need to be a point after landing where he gives control of the aircraft over to me (and he’ll start working the radios). There’s some variation on exactly when this is done, but usually it’ll happen after the reversers are stowed and we’re just under 60 knots.
 
Can’t speak to the C-130 or military procedures, but at my airline the 737 only has a tiller on the CA’s side. So if my FO was the one flying the leg, there’s going to need to be a point after landing where he gives control of the aircraft over to me (and he’ll start working the radios). There’s some variation on exactly when this is done, but usually it’ll happen after the reversers are stowed and we’re just under 60 knots.

Thank you sir. So lets say the TRs are stowed and you're under 60 knots, you're communicating with the FO and tower tells you to "remain tower frequency and taxi to park" Who answers the tower or do you just ignore them and do what you want? Now I asked that facetiously and I do mean it tongue in cheek so please take it as such.

In other words, if you took offense, I meant it the other way. ;)

Edit: That goes for you too Larry.
 
Turning off the runway is about the busiest time IMO so stuff goes out the window sometimes you repeat something back on mental autopilot and you revert to a habit. In my current airframe Coming through 50-60kts TR's are getting stowed, speed brakes stowed, antiskid off, flaps up, recog lights off, various heats have to come off(8 switches worth!) bleeds getting configured, lights getting configured, cabin AC might be coming online cause our air cycle machine can't handle more than 70 degree heat throw in a transfer of controls and things get more messy.

For example I as an FO land i'm stowing TR's and getting on the brakes and CA takes your instruction and reads it back. I half hear it. CA "i got the plane" FO "your plane" (then I start slamming switches knobs and levers(flow has 17 items on it!)) start turning off the runway and what happens 90% of the time prompts habit to take over, ipad chart up, flip flop comm freq, "ground xjet on Alpha 7 going to atlantic. "
 
Of course you are not confused by these instructions. You are reading them in your living room with no distractions and plenty of plenty of time to think about the meaning, not hearing them while turning off a runway and saying to yourself "cross line, change freq, contact ground, ask for taxi".
Sorry. The instructions are not out of the ordinary or rare to hear. If someone is task saturated then any instruction will be hard to process. Receiving these instructions while clearing a runway is about as easy as it gets.
The controller has free rein to rant about the pilots.
 
Thank you sir. So lets say the TRs are stowed and you're under 60 knots, you're communicating with the FO and tower tells you to "remain tower frequency and taxi to park" Who answers the tower or do you just ignore them and do what you want? Now I asked that facetiously and I do mean it tongue in cheek so please take it as such.

In other words, if you took offense, I meant it the other way. ;)

Ha! You won't offend me - hell, I once hung out with @eman1200 on a CLT overnight! :p I don't mean to imply that you shouldn't be annoyed by this - certainly something is wrong on the pilot end if you're giving an instruction and it isn't being followed. It's not a complicated or unusual instruction either.

If the transfer of control to the CA has taken place the FO will answer your call. Sometimes that transfer happens later than usual if the CA lets the FO clear the runway (assuming there's a high speed available), and in that case you might still be talking to the CA. But that's pretty rare - I usually welcome my FOs to taxi clear of the runway and the vast majority still hand me the aircraft shortly after my '60' callout. But again, this is how it happens at my airline and all this could be handled really differently in an Air Force C-130.

Anyway, if you're talking to the FO I don't have an explanation. And even if you're talking to the CA my possible explanation is weak, I realize. But I find it hard to believe that you're being blown off or otherwise intentionally ignored. Throughout my career I've never seen anything like that occur. If anything we too often get ourselves in trouble 'making it work' for ATC!
 
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Ha! You won't offend me - hell, I once hung out with @eman1200 on a CLT overnight! :p

I thought I dialed the offensiveness down a notch, but that’s only because we went light on the shots. We can try harder next time!
 
I thought I dialed the offensiveness down a notch, but that’s only because we went light on the shots. We can try harder next time!

Ha! Definitely!
 
Sometimes I read things back without actually listening to what ATC said. Everyone has a brain fart here and there:)
 
The one that catches me sometimes is the "monitor ground" call. Especially at unfamiliar airports (and how are things at Flagstaff this morning? :D ) when I'm rolling out and hear "rightatalphaseventaxiparkingmonitorgroundpointeight." I find the appropriate intersection, turn, vacate the runway, and I vaguely remember that tower had mumbled something about "ground point eight." Did he say "contact ground" or "monitor ground"? The safe default answer is "contact", so I do, and get a response that sounds like I just distracted somebody from his crossword puzzle. :oops:
 
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Of course you are not confused by these instructions. You are reading them in your living room with no distractions and plenty of plenty of time to think about the meaning, not hearing them while turning off a runway and saying to yourself "cross line, change freq, contact ground, ask for taxi".
Why would you be saying that much to yourself while turning off a runway? It’s just distraction from turning off the runway.
 
I believe you are generally talking about GA airplanes, but...
Not as much lately (perhaps controllers got the memo?), but in the past it seemed we always received our clearing & initial taxi instructions during rollout... That can be a very busy time for us. Reversers, several callouts, transfer of control, and so forth.
There have been numerous times in the past where we had to have the instructions restated, even if the instructions were simple.
 
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