Regionals Want 1500-Hour Rule Waived

Yep, of course it was the regionals idiotic oversight of the crews they hired that caused it. One of these days they'll train ATPs that you have to decrease angle of attack in response to stall warnings.
 
flyingron said:
One of these days they'll train ATPs that you have to decrease angle of attack in response to stall warnings.
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Not sure what the "one of these days" comment means, the airlines have been teaching reduce pitch on stalls for over a decade now. That along with jet upset training.

Prior to 2009 the stalls that were trained in the simulator were trained as precision maneuvers, not stall avoidance.
 
ateamer said:
It should be repealed. The rule came about purely from politics and would have had zero effect in preventing the mishap that led to it.
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Maybe not, but curious how you know that?
 
Oh no if it isn't the consequences of actions.

Regionals. oh we abused people and F'ed with their careers to save a few bucks for 30 years.

Also regionals. its too hard to become a pilot and no one wants to work for us. /shockedpikachu

All these shortages just have the caveat *at the pay and qol we don't want to offer cause $$$
 
Given that the overall accident rate for the code share carriers has always been higher than the majors, I think it would make more sense to increase the hours for the regionals to 2500.
 
Albany Tom said:
Given that the overall accident rate for the code share carriers has always been higher than the majors, I think it would make more sense to increase the hours for the regionals to 2500.
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Unless they’re maintenance induced accidents or poor training or poor pilot hour management…not all accidents are pilot error.
They need to study the accidents first, the 1500 hours would not have stopped the accident it was suppose to prevent.
 
"We all know you can get a very qualified pilot in far less time that it takes today," said PSA Airlines president Dion Flannery.
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Not sure who “we all” is, or how “we all know” this.
 
Well if they hire you today, training is currently so backlogged that you won’t start class training until April next year. This info is from one of the bigger regionals.
 
Kritchlow said:
Maybe not, but curious how you know that?
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Not speaking for @ateamer , of course, but the Colgan crash is what precipitated the 1500 hour rule. Both of the pilots on that flight had more than 1500 hours. Hence, the rule would not have prevented them from being on that flight, and therefore wouldn't have prevented the mishap. As with everything else, there's more to it and that's the short summary, but it's basically the chain of reasoning as I understand it.
 
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MooneyDriver78 said:
Unless they’re maintenance induced accidents or poor training or poor pilot hour management…not all accidents are pilot error.
They need to study the accidents first, the 1500 hours would not have stopped the accident it was suppose to prevent.
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Oh, I'm not saying it's causal, or even fair, just that it would be nice to see them take that hit.
 
RussR said:
Not speaking for @ateamer , of course, but the Colgan crash is what precipitated the 1500 hour rule. Both of the pilots on that flight had more than 1500 hours. Hence, the rule would not have prevented them from being on that flight, and therefore wouldn't have prevented the mishap. As with everything else, there's more to it and that's the short summary, but it's basically the chain of reasoning as I understand it.
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Well if that’s the case, than yes, the 1500 hr requirement is meaningless… but, the associated ATP requirement may not be. Is that a fair statement?
 
Kritchlow said:
Well if that’s the case, than yes, the 1500 hr requirement is meaningless… but, the associated ATP requirement may not be. Is that a fair statement?
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What is the exact requirement? Is it the 1500 hours indicated by the article title, or is it an ATP certificate, which can be issued with as little as 750 hours?
 
MauleSkinner said:
What is the exact requirement? Is it the 1500 hours indicated by the article title, or is it an ATP certificate, which can be issued with as little as 750 hours?
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I am not positive, but I thought it was a minimum of a R-ATP. Of course that time can vary, but 750 I’m not aware of. Is that military?
 
MauleSkinner said:
What is the exact requirement? Is it the 1500 hours indicated by the article title, or is it an ATP certificate, which can be issued with as little as 750 hours?
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The requirement is an R-ATP or ATP. Regional airlines will hire pilots who have met all of the experience requirements of the R-ATP or ATP and will provide the CTP course training and issue the R-ATP/ATP at the completion of the type ride.
 
Ted said:
There has never been a pilot shortage.
There is a pay shortage.
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Have you seen what Regionals are paying these days?

PSA (AAL regional) starts with a base pay of $45,900 the first year plus increased hourly rates (+25%/+50%) for flying over 75 and 85 hours per month plus a variety of bonuses which could total up to $187,500 by the time a new-hire flows to AAL. ($150,000 in retention bonuses, $15,000 in experience bonuses, $15,000 sign-on bonus, and $7,500 bonus for new-hires who are already CL-65 type rated)

Not too bad for CFI with 1,500 hours.
 
I suspect to get those 1500 hours your average pilot is deeply mired in debt, unless he or she got their Uncle Sugar to foot the bill. That pay is wonderful to someone with no attachments, throw in debt and possibly a family and it really doesn't seem like all that much.
 
Larry in TN said:
Have you seen what Regionals are paying these days?

PSA (AAL regional) starts with a base pay of $45,900 the first year plus increased hourly rates (+25%/+50%) for flying over 75 and 85 hours per month plus a variety of bonuses which could total up to $187,500 by the time a new-hire flows to AAL. ($150,000 in retention bonuses, $15,000 in experience bonuses, $15,000 sign-on bonus, and $7,500 bonus for new-hires who are already CL-65 type rated)

Not too bad for CFI with 1,500 hours.
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You're right that in the past several years the pay has come up quite a bit. 10 years ago when I was debating what I wanted to do, going to regionals would be a literal pay cut from welfare (if I was on welfare, which I wasn't). But it's also come with a lot of ups and downs. A year ago we had regionals outright shutting down entirely, captains getting downgraded to FOs with no idea how long that would last, bases shutting down so people who were home based then had to commute along with losing captain pay. These are just a handful of real stories, not second hand.

Now we're back to the hiring boom, but the pilot market is always fickle and until you get to and are established within a major (assuming that's your career path, which it probably is if you're at a regional), that 6 figure salary could quickly go to unemployment and working as an Amazon delivery driver. Stability? What's that?

Then you figure the investment you have to make in terms of time and eating Ramen as a CFI to get to 1500 hours. No thanks, I'm not interested in that career path, even if it would be an immediate pay raise from my current position. High paying jobs pay that way for a reason. Pay enough, there are enough pilots out there to fill all of the openings. But it has to be enough to make it worth those people getting out of their other established careers, and that has to take into account QOL and career risk. It doesn't at the moment.
 
Larry in TN said:
Have you seen what Regionals are paying these days?

PSA (AAL regional) starts with a base pay of $45,900 the first year plus increased hourly rates (+25%/+50%) for flying over 75 and 85 hours per month plus a variety of bonuses which could total up to $187,500 by the time a new-hire flows to AAL. ($150,000 in retention bonuses, $15,000 in experience bonuses, $15,000 sign-on bonus, and $7,500 bonus for new-hires who are already CL-65 type rated)

Not too bad for CFI with 1,500 hours.
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Still doesn't go very far, in, say, the DFW housing market.
 
steingar said:
I suspect to get those 1500 hours your average pilot is deeply mired in debt, unless he or she got their Uncle Sugar to foot the bill. That pay is wonderful to someone with no attachments, throw in debt and possibly a family and it really doesn't seem like all that much.
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That starting pay is above the US personal median income, even without any bonuses, and it's just the first year. It goes up pretty quickly from there. How much do you think it has to be before it's a pilot shortage and not a pay shortage?
 
RyanShort1 said:
Still doesn't go very far, in, say, the DFW housing market.
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How many people buy a house in the first year of their career? I certainly didn't.

With the multipliers for going over 75 and 85 hours, breaking $60,000 in pay the first year is doable. Plus an additional $15,000 in bonuses, $22,500 if already typed), in the first year brings that to $75,000 to $82,500 the first year.

I made about $17,000 my first year at a regional airline and there was no shortage of applicants back then.

How much does it need to be before it's a pilot shortage and not a pay shortage?
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Unless they’re maintenance induced accidents or poor training or poor pilot hour management…not all accidents are pilot error.
They need to study the accidents first, the 1500 hours would not have stopped the accident it was suppose to prevent.
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Given that both pilots had passed that number anyway; Peter Garrison did a column that blamed their training directly.
 
steingar said:
I suspect to get those 1500 hours your average pilot is deeply mired in debt, unless he or she got their Uncle Sugar to foot the bill. That pay is wonderful to someone with no attachments, throw in debt and possibly a family and it really doesn't seem like all that much.
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I cannot speak for others, but I certainly did not pay to fly 1500 hours. I instructed, and flew skydivers until I had 135 minimums, then flew other commercial ventures.
So, while I certainly did not make a lot of money, I was getting paid to build that time.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Well, by definition, mainline wage.
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You want mainline carriers to hire pilots with minimum ATP experience requirements?

The pilot shortage has significant increased wages at the regional level. Seven years ago, base pay at the same regional airline was under $22,000 per year with no bonuses.
 
Larry in TN said:
That starting pay is above the US personal median income, even without any bonuses, and it's just the first year. It goes up pretty quickly from there. How much do you think it has to be before it's a pilot shortage and not a pay shortage?
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Not quite, but close. At least base pay. Work enough hours and get the bonuses and one could be over the median.
  • The median household income in the US in 2019 was $68,703
  • Full-time working women in 2019 had real median earnings of $47,299
  • Full-time working men in 2019 had real median earnings of $57,456
But the medians are overall, so not just people in their first year on their career job. Of course, most of them don't have a lot of job/education debt to cover.
 
Larry in TN said:
How much does it need to be before it's a pilot shortage and not a pay shortage?
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any career's shortage of work force is related to pay.. if you don't pay people enough they won't go do that job.. it's a free market and people want to earn money
 
Kritchlow said:
I cannot speak for others, but I certainly did not pay to fly 1500 hours. I instructed, and flew skydivers until I had 135 minimums, then flew other commercial ventures.
So, while I certainly did not make a lot of money, I was getting paid to build that time.
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True…I quit paying for the majority of my time at about 400 hours…which was a solid 100 hours more than most of my contemporaries. But I didn’t instruct until a little later.
 
The last time I seriously considered the airlines was 1995 and the pay was too abysmal to deal with and commuting would have eaten it all up as I was not about to get in on a flop pad with 7 other guys, or whatever. I was flight instructing at the time for an Asian carrier and the pay would have been less than half of what I was making. By the time the pay was where I might consider it, I was too old to consider it. I am sure I am not the only pilot who selected themselves out over the years.
 
The market is backwards to be honest. The most difficult flying requires the least amount of hours. It's much more difficult for me to fly my airplane IMC than to fly the TBM700 IMC. Bigger jets often see fewer takeoffs and landings through a trip which is the most difficult part of the actual flight yet they require the most hours. A Piedmont pilot flying an old ERJ doing 5 legs a day has a much more difficult job than the American Airlines pilot flying the latest hardware for 2-3 legs a day. YMMV as I am obviously jaded from not being a career pilot lol
 
Grum.Man said:
The market is backwards to be honest. The most difficult flying requires the least amount of hours. It's much more difficult for me to fly my airplane IMC than to fly the TBM700 IMC. Bigger jets often see fewer takeoffs and landings through a trip which is the most difficult part of the actual flight yet they require the most hours.
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This isn't really different than a lot of careers. I can think of several where the most demanding work is on the junior employees, and it get's easier up the chain.

If the regionals were paying this amount 15 years ago, there is a very good chance I would have worked as a CFI for a year to rack up the hours gap needed and jumped to airline flying. I'm too old to make it worth it now.
 
Grum.Man said:
The market is backwards to be honest. The most difficult flying requires the least amount of hours. It's much more difficult for me to fly my airplane IMC than to fly the TBM700 IMC. Bigger jets often see fewer takeoffs and landings through a trip which is the most difficult part of the actual flight yet they require the most hours. A Piedmont pilot flying an old ERJ doing 5 legs a day has a much more difficult job than the American Airlines pilot flying the latest hardware for 2-3 legs a day. YMMV as I am obviously jaded from not being a career pilot lol
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Yeah flying the 738 around is way easier than when I was on the emb145. Way better avionics more capability easy to handfly easy to land. Plus the operation is easier longer legs longer turn times, crew meals, usually flying into controlled airspace. Not complaining about making more for flying more pax but flying the bigger equipment is definitely easier. I actually want to go to jetBlue on the 190 or southwest cause of the shorter legs. I've quickly learned doing 3-6 hour legs is boring AF even if its good for the paycheck.
 
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