Raptor Aircraft

[Tantalum]

And how does he get to call himself "Raptor"?

I am required to use "Experimental". How does he get a pass?

ATC, at least at Valdosta, doesn't seem to take issue with it. I thought the same thing too.. does Boeing get to say "Dreamlifter" or are they also "Experimental"?

 

[donjohnston]

I would think that as long as "EXPERIMENTAL" is on the side, then that's what you are.

To be fair, since Velocity got a type designator, I have become a bit lax in announcing "experimental" every time.

 

[NHWannabe]

Peter just posted:

"Hey All, just a quick message before the next video update mainly for all those concerned about the ongoing flight testing. First of all, I'm continuing ground testing to find any more potential issues. I actually found a decent one yesterday that I'm working on resolving now. I'm also working with a new DAR based right here at True Flight Aerospace, the guys that have given me a warm welcome and are hosting the aircraft and even providing support and guidance. The airworthiness certificate amendment is underway now and as part of that the new DAR will be doing his own full inspection of the aircraft. So hopefully anything that was missed by everyone else who inspected it will be identified and resolved. The DAR is also a former test pilot who at one point in his test piloting career had a hand at building a Long EZ and flew the flight test program on it. I'm already consulting with him to ensure that everything that happens with the prototype is done in a safe manner. What better person to have than a DAR and Test pilot, and right here, every day. It's like a dream come true. I will be bringing in an active test pilot to do the majority of the test program and hopefully we'll find someone local to the southeast. Frankly, having a remote group was just not working out. So, please calm down just a little, trust that the level of judgement I have used to get this far will continue to prevail to bring the aircraft through to completion of the flight test program."

This was his response to someone who posted that they could see this change coming after the Wasabi rebuttal video

"You are incorrect in your assumptions. The main reason is that it takes way too much expense to get them out here for a day of work. That and the fact they basically slandered me with a slew of things said about me that were simply not true. They never once took the fall for changing their mind on the airport at the last minute. Justin had always told me at every opportunity that he was concerned with the airport but was most likely going to get "there" in his head. To say that I said the airport was fine was a complete falsehood. For them to say they were going on my opinion of the airport shows negligence on their part. If they're so professional why would they rely on my word about the airport suitability. Anyway, too much bad taste in my mouth now to move forward with them. They're not the only test pilots in the world although the way some guys speak you would think that's the case. Onwards and upwards."

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

Slandered? Their video was a total class act and it seemed like they were as diplomatic as possible in their assessments and statements about Peter and the aircraft.

 

[midwestpa24]

Slandered? Their video was a total class act and it seemed like they were as diplomatic as possible in their assessments and statements about Peter and the aircraft.

I just finished watching the entire hour and I agree. You could see how many times they cut away just as Peter would start to argue. You could also feel the heat coming off of Peter everytime something new came up. I realize this project is his baby and his pride and joy, but you can't grow if you can't take constructive criticism.

 

[Tantalum]

The whole world is wrong, and he's right. If you don't marvel in fame at his creation and launch into the sky with it and say it's the best thing ever then you suck and are slandering him. The engine quitting and being unable to start due to a dead battery right after he said "I can't imagine why you'd ever have a dead battery.." was priceless. Heck, if he can't imagine it then it must not ever be a possibility!

 

[Llk]

I had never heard of raptor up till about a week or two ago. I got out of the aviation inter webs about 4-5 years ago, and I’m not a deposit holder. I read every post and watched every video including the latest Wasabi hourlong saga. Raptor is new to me- I think I posted this earlier. I’m just a guy with an opinion like most everyone here.

I flew with a green ID card a little while, wore pretty green uniforms, grunted a bit, starting out literally at the very low end of the totem pole with little stripes on my collar. If it absolutely, positively needed to be destroyed overnight, you just gave a call. Plenty of egos there...and not a whole lot of trash talk without backing it up.

I’m also a plane owner, both certified and experimental. Flying is a hobby. I don’t even have a commercial or CFI ticket. I bough the airplane I learned In at 16, and I’m 53. I went through some police academy as a volunteer at 50. I have been to Airventure a dozen times or more.

While originally an Aerospace a engineering Major, I’m a hobbyist at best; My degrees were in physics; later in life I went back for degrees in criminology. I’ve taught computer design at three or four colleges. I’ve never done aerospace for a living in any way.

I spent tons of time at an airplane manufacturer while they were going through bankruptcy and reorg. They needed a hand, and I made friends in every department. Every test pilot they had I would call a friend, and I flew a ton with them.

I also spent 30 years in the fastest growing IT organization in the world, which had about a 60/70 billion dollar exit. We sold equipment on stock and options, and I got to see my share of inflated egos, pride, visionaries, unreal exits, bombastic behavior, back biting, class action lawsuits and more. Before there was 9/11, there was 1993, and my company was heavily involved in both for the good and the bad.

I’ve been on POA for about two weeks. I was curious if this thread is representative of the community. I belong to other communities that have a little more caffeine in their cortado, and consider aviation a bit of my happy place - so observing all piling on Peter, while it may be deserved, was ....ummm...curious. I replied because people were making assumptions - deposit holder, didn’t watch the videos, etc. Judging from Peter’s latest posting, it sounds like Wasabi was getting pricey for him which I completely understand. It also sounded like they weren’t clicking- his project, his choice.

No one wants to see a burning hole in the ground with meaty bits in it- I’m sure including Peter. It sounds like he is finding new help; perhaps he is lacking an internet community of PILOTS, ENGINEERS and others to positively lend a hand; that may be a worthwhile criticism. Having spent some decades in the hardware and software space, designing by customer input can be a little challenging, but it also sounds like he needs some marketing help. Hopefully he will get it.

 

[Omalley1537]

I just finished watching the entire hour and I agree. You could see how many times they cut away just as Peter would start to argue. You could also feel the heat coming off of Peter everytime something new came up. I realize this project is his baby and his pride and joy, but you can't grow if you can't take constructive criticism.

The Wasabi folks (at least on the video) had much more restraint than me...there were times where you could tell what they wanted to say and didn’t.

At this point, I don’t think Peter will be satisfied with a test pilot unless he/she looks it over, tells him it’s the greatest flying machine ever, straps in, and firewalls it.

Whether to save face or because he actually believes it, he seems to believe that all the people who have offered input are merely trying to sabotage him. Dangerous mindset.

 

[MacFlier]

Been following Peter's videos for a couple of years now and this thread.
I think that Peter is right on this: if he can get a local team to do the testing, he's going to progress faster towards a first flight. It will also be cheaper.
But I don't think the Wasabi team "slandered" him. Watching the 1-hour video, it gave me the impression that Justin/Elliot were not too excited to fly the Raptor, but put their professional hat on and did the best they could, professionally and as candid as possible.
Peter may not have liked the feedback he got, but he may need to be more receptive to feedback and suggestions. I think a local team will definitely help in this regard.

 

[midwestpa24]

I think that Peter is right on this: if he can get a local team to do the testing, he's going to progress faster towards a first flight. It will also be cheaper.

That's a given. Much more efficient having people on site and available versus travelling back and forth across the country.

 

[Tantalum]

I belong to other communities that have a little more caffeine in their cortado, and consider aviation a bit of my happy place - so observing all piling on Peter, while it may be deserved, was ....ummm...curious

PoA is a pretty tame place compared other areas of the web. COPA is tame too.. other places, not so much. I think what upsets people about Peter is his overall I'm-always-right mindset. That's dangerous. Proclaiming that no one can make a long bolt straight is just absurd. This guy demonstrates a mindset that he's the best and everyone else who doesn't agree is either a doubter or a hater.

I don’t think Peter will be satisfied with a test pilot unless he/she looks it over, tells him it’s the greatest flying machine ever, straps in, and firewalls it

Yes!

if he can get a local team to do the testing, he's going to progress faster towards a first flight. It will also be cheaper.

That's assuming he works with them and follows their advice. He seemed pretty annoyed that the guys didn't just know off the bat that advancing the throttle out of idle with the AC may cause the engine to quit

There are over 1,500 deposit holders out there, he's not going to be able to hand hodge-podge each of those kits together.

 

[Omalley1537]

Been following Peter's videos for a couple of years now and this thread.
I think that Peter is right on this: if he can get a local team to do the testing, he's going to progress faster towards a first flight. It will also be cheaper.
But I don't think the Wasabi team "slandered" him. Watching the 1-hour video, it gave me the impression that Justin/Elliot were not too excited to fly the Raptor, but put their professional hat on and did the best they could, professionally and as candid as possible.
Peter may not have liked the feedback he got, but he may need to be more receptive to feedback and suggestions. I think a local team will definitely help in this regard.

That’s only true if he accepts feedback, even when it’s not what he wants to hear. As long as he has the mindset that those with criticism need to be replaced, he’s going nowhere. He has managed to throw out some very good talent along the way. There’s a fine line between confidence/drive and foolish pigheadedness.

 

[GaryM]

There’s a fine line between confidence/drive and foolish pigheadedness.

The line isn't all that fine, it's just that those on the foolish side of it can't see it.

 

[kyleb]

That's a given. Much more efficient having people on site and available versus travelling back and forth across the country.

Only if you're hiring the right people. Hire someone without the skills and expertise and it is a really bad deal, regardless of how cheap the local talent is. Also, remember that whoever he hires (assuming that person has a brain) will take a week or two to give that airplane a thorough inspection (far deeper than an annual or condition inspection), work through all of the design choices, come to grips with the systems in the aircraft, and carry out taxi tests, etc. prior to a first flight. Wasabi has already done most of that up-front work. Now Peter's gonna need to start the process over with the new test pilot(s). Not what he'll want to do (he'll want to hand some hot stick the key and watch it launch into the sunrise after a 5 minute cockpit briefing).

I check a lot of the boxes for this program (engineer, built an airplane, test flew that airplane, have maintained it for 19 years, etc). But I don't think I'm nearly qualified to take a shot at it, and wouldn't take it on for $100K. Just not gonna.

 

[TCABM]

Isn’t Wasabi the second set of full-time pros (engineering/design/development/test) that have walked with significant professional concerns about the quality of this project?

 

[kyleb]

Isn’t Wasabi the second set of full-time pros (engineering/design/development/test) that have walked with significant professional concerns about the quality of this project?

I've paid attention to the project and don't remember anyone analogous to Wasabi being involved. There were a couple of experienced guys on the front end of the project from a design/fab perspective, but they did not stick around for the duration.

 

[TCABM]

I've paid attention to the project and don't remember anyone analogous to Wasabi being involved. There were a couple of experienced guys on the front end of the project from a design/fab perspective, but they did not stick around for the duration.

That’s the other group I was thinking of. I understood they had concerns about some of their feedback or work not being incorporated, but I could be wrong; I haven’t followed Raptor too closely because I’m more interested in the RV-8 or -14. Just got to figure out preferred seating.

 

[donjohnston]

Isn’t Wasabi the second set of full-time pros (engineering/design/development/test) that have walked with significant professional concerns about the quality of this project?

I believe you are right. I don't recall the name, but I recall another test pilot that declined to continue.

 

[TCABM]

I believe you are right. I don't recall the name, but I recall another test pilot that declined to continue.

Len Fox. Not much I could find in his feedback. That might make three groups, the design/fab guys and the 2x test pilot groups.

 

[denverpilot]

With all the knit picking going on, it makes me wonder how many actually have done any form of a startup successfully soup to nuts, ...

One.

But I have no idea what it has to do with knitting.

I wouldn’t call some of these clearly fatal flaws we are all reading here “nitpicking” though.

More like “completely predictable failures”.

And I’m just reading along like you. I couldn’t care less how many people the guy scams money out of, really.

The one I built is still going under a new name, BTW. It had serious financial troubles and the founder’s shares went to zero, 400 of 500 laid off because it tried to grow too fast.

But it provided the products and services the customers paid for from day one and never stopped doing so. Even at 1/5 the staff.

Investors got all their money back. Some even got interest. The two originators walked with $6M. The rest of us got higher than average salaries, good bennies, free beer, and those toilet paper founder’s shares.

There’s businesses and then there’s hobbies. I doubt anybody’s even getting back to break even in this hobby described here.

Maybe they get some free beer though.

Quite a few big name stuff most of us all use out of California tech has yet to make a profit. Household names. But they provide the goods and services they say they provide.

Estimated restaurant failures are as high as 80% in some locations. You still get a plate of food and a drink as a customer before they die.

No dog in this guy.’s fight, but I doubt he makes a single delivery after reading this thread.

He isn’t unsuccessful because he did “soup to nuts”. Plenty of us have done startups that provided working products and services from day one.

(Technically it was day 60 or so since we had to wire the place for power, but we didn’t take a dime until then from anybody. Didn’t even have any investors outside of the two principles at that point either. Pretty sure they mortgaged their houses. They each made an extra 250K a year in ROI over ten years on a “failure”. They’re still sorry they had to jettison 80% of the staff a month before Christmas to cover the called loan.)

Experience at a startup won’t save one that doesn’t have a product. Totally unrelated. [/QUOTE]

 

[Tarheelpilot]

@denverpilot you have your response included in the quote above.

 

[denverpilot]

@denverpilot you have your response included in the quote above.

Thanks. I broke the quote tag. LOL

Fixed. It’s 3AM.

 

[FastEddieB]

A bit of a hijack, but at about 1:01 the video cuts away to a Sky Arrow approaching and landing.

It looks exactly like my normal slipping approach and landing, but even though it’s nearby I haven’t been to KCNI in quite some time. Anyone know who that might have been?

I ask because Sky Arrows are pretty rare and I'd love to touch base with another owner nearby.

 

[Salty]

The whole world is wrong, and he's right. If you don't marvel in fame at his creation and launch into the sky with it and say it's the best thing ever then you suck and are slandering him. The engine quitting and being unable to start due to a dead battery right after he said "I can't imagine why you'd ever have a dead battery.." was priceless. Heck, if he can't imagine it then it must not ever be a possibility!

Also, there's what that led up to him having a dead battery to give just one "why" you'd have dead battery. If it's so unfathomable, then it wouldn't have already happened before the plane ever flew.

 

[Rod Schneider]

A bit of a hijack, but at about 1:01 the video cuts away to a Sky Arrow approaching and landing.

It looks exactly like my normal slipping approach and landing, but even though it’s nearby I haven’t been to KCNI in quite some time. Anyone know who that might have been?

I ask because Sky Arrows are pretty rare and I'd love to touch base with another owner nearby.

This one is based here at Cherokee (KCNI). Not sure who actually owns it, but it is configured for hand controls in the front cockpit. Our airport manager was injured a few years back during the filming of "American Made" (Tom Cruise), and is in a wheelchair. He, and some others, fly this plane.

 

[Rod Schneider]

I'll add my perspective on the Wasabi video. I've been around Peter from the day he brought this project up to Cherokee. I've had many conversations with him over the last year and a half or so. Even helped do a few things on the project, mostly providing a third hand during some of the reduction drive changes. Over time, it became apparent that he was depending way too much on "feeling" whether something was going to be good or not. I stopped even going down to that hangar a while back, mostly because I was afraid of being associated with this airplane in any way. Having watched the Wasabi video, I'm very comfortable in saying that I'm in total agreement with their assessment of the project and of Peter. It verifies what many of us at Cherokee have long suspected. Peter says he has great help available in Valdosta. I'm sure he does, but it might not last long as the folks get more familiar with the project....
I certainly hate to see anyone fail, and I really hope no one gets hurt, but it may be a long road..........

 

[FastEddieB]

This one is based here at Cherokee (KCNI). Not sure who actually owns it, but it is configured for hand controls in the front cockpit. Our airport manager was injured a few years back during the filming of "American Made" (Tom Cruise), and is in a wheelchair. He, and some others, fly this plane.

Cool. Thanks - I'll try to touch base with him soon.

Maybe I'll fly down one day when you're available to chat.

 

[iamtheari]

This was his response to someone who posted that they could see this change coming after the Wasabi rebuttal video

"You are incorrect in your assumptions. The main reason is that it takes way too much expense to get them out here for a day of work. That and the fact they basically slandered me with a slew of things said about me that were simply not true. They never once took the fall for changing their mind on the airport at the last minute. Justin had always told me at every opportunity that he was concerned with the airport but was most likely going to get "there" in his head. To say that I said the airport was fine was a complete falsehood. For them to say they were going on my opinion of the airport shows negligence on their part. If they're so professional why would they rely on my word about the airport suitability. Anyway, too much bad taste in my mouth now to move forward with them. They're not the only test pilots in the world although the way some guys speak you would think that's the case. Onwards and upwards."

Where are these things being posted? YouTube comments?

The Wasabi guys did explain the airport issue very well in their lengthy video. The plane gives them concerns. On top of that, the powerplant is untested. The Cherokee airport also gave them concerns. With those concerns added together, they were not comfortable flying that plane at that airport. They said that, had Peter been able to resolve their concerns about the airframe and powerplant, they could have talked themselves into flying out of Cherokee, but he didn't. That makes complete sense to me. There are risks that you can control and risks that you can't. Test pilots don't live long if they disregard risks that can be controlled, such as having a suitable testing environment to mitigate the risks outside their control.

 

[NHWannabe]

Where are these things being posted? YouTube comments?

The Wasabi guys did explain the airport issue very well in their lengthy video. The plane gives them concerns. On top of that, the powerplant is untested. The Cherokee airport also gave them concerns. With those concerns added together, they were not comfortable flying that plane at that airport. They said that, had Peter been able to resolve their concerns about the airframe and powerplant, they could have talked themselves into flying out of Cherokee, but he didn't. That makes complete sense to me. There are risks that you can control and risks that you can't. Test pilots don't live long if they disregard risks that can be controlled, such as having a suitable testing environment to mitigate the risks outside their control.

Yes the comments I posted were in his latest YouTube video.

 

[midwestpa24]

Where are these things being posted? YouTube comments?

The Wasabi guys did explain the airport issue very well in their lengthy video. The plane gives them concerns. On top of that, the powerplant is untested. The Cherokee airport also gave them concerns. With those concerns added together, they were not comfortable flying that plane at that airport. They said that, had Peter been able to resolve their concerns about the airframe and powerplant, they could have talked themselves into flying out of Cherokee, but he didn't. That makes complete sense to me. There are risks that you can control and risks that you can't. Test pilots don't live long if they disregard risks that can be controlled, such as having a suitable testing environment to mitigate the risks outside their control.

Simply safety management 101. Any one item on its own only presents a small risk. But when you total them up together, the risk goes up exponentially. An untested airframe that has already shown some design/assembly issues on the ground. A powerplant that has never before been flown, and even shut down on its on during taxi. An airport with a shorter runway surrounded by steep tree covered hills with no alternates.

At the end of the day Justin's gut told him it just wasn't a wise decision. You have to respect that. If it doesn't feel right, then it isn't.

 

[Spring Ford]

Also, there's what that led up to him having a dead battery to give just one "why" you'd have dead battery. If it's so unfathomable, then it wouldn't have already happened before the plane ever flew.

I am pretty sure he said that the battery did not charge at low engine speeds. I think there was a specific speed mentioned but I can't really remember it. Maybe 1200RPM? I guess there may have been a lot of slow running?

 

[Salty]

I am pretty sure he said that the battery did not charge at low engine speeds. I think there was a specific speed mentioned but I can't really remember it. Maybe 1200RPM? I guess there may have been a lot of slow running?

Yeah, so? He ran the battery down and then said he couldn’t imagine how you could run the battery down. You don’t see the inconsistency there? He had an example right there in front of him.

 

[midwestpa24]

Another new video. Another minor issue. Obviously easy to fix and overcome, but with an all new untested powerplant built by someone without experience in aircraft powerplants, you have to wonder how many other little things like this exists waiting to be found.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Another new video. Another minor issue. Obviously easy to fix and overcome, but with an all new untested powerplant built by someone without experience in aircraft powerplants, you have to wonder how many other little things like this exists waiting to be found.

I wouldn’t call that minor.

 

[Salty]

I wouldn’t call that minor.

Me neither.

 

[midwestpa24]

I wouldn’t call that minor.

I was being nice...

 

[donjohnston]

The number of times this guy puts things together using TLAR logic with absolutely zero understanding (or disregard) of standard practices is mind boggling.

 

[rtk11]

I was being nice...

Oh, c'mon guys. It's only two bolts backing out and denting a metal plate on an untested engine. But it's all OK now, it's safety wired. What else could go wrong?

 

[unsafervguy]

Let’s see, it’s only had taxi runs and his receive is already shaking itself apart and he doesn’t have any concern about that

 

[kyleb]

Let’s see, it’s only had taxi runs and his receive is already shaking itself apart and he doesn’t have any concern about that

He's shrugged off more concerns than I can count. Bolt failure in the drive mechanism? Shucks, happens to everybody.

This is the protracted, ground based version of one of those videos where a pilot freezes up and rides the thing into a smoking hole instead of punching out.

At what point do you realize you're in unrecoverably over your head and call the whole thing off? He can do that now and nobody gets hurt/killed. He could even retrench and bolt a Lycoming or a Continental on the back and prove the concept while he gets professional help on the homebrew engine/redrive. That would greatly decrease the chances this thing ends up in a peanut field at the end of one of the first 5 flights.