quick flight following question

[FlyingMonkey]

when on flight following and you want to change altitude, do you?

1) request altitude change from x to y
2) go ahead and just descend from x to y
3) let them know you're descending from x to y as a courtesy

 

[murphey]

#3 for me. If it's a problem, ATC lets me know.

 

[Henning]

3, not required, just a courtesy call.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

It's a good idea to call in a 'vacating', among other reasons - but also because in many areas like mine, you can descend below radio coverage. ATC will most likely let you know if you warn of a pending descent, and this will reduce the unanswered call thing if you advise beforehand.

 

[jpower]

I do 3, but 2 should be fine as well (unless the controller states otherwise, like "advise prior to any altitude changes"). The first option would likely elicit strange looks from the controller if you could see his face.

 

[Larry in TN]

when on flight following and you want to change altitude, do you?

1) request altitude change from x to y
2) go ahead and just descend from x to y
3) let them know you're descending from x to y as a courtesy

4) Read the AIM and follow the recommendation that it provides for use in this situation.

AIM 4-1-15 b.2.

 

[Velocity173]

when on flight following and you want to change altitude, do you?

1) request altitude change from x to y
2) go ahead and just descend from x to y
3) let them know you're descending from x to y as a courtesy

If you're descending to your destination then descend unless ATC says report any altitude changes.

If you're enroute and want to change your cruising altitude, then let ATC know that you're changing your cruising altitude.

 

[roncachamp]

when on flight following and you want to change altitude, do you?

1) request altitude change from x to y

No.

2) go ahead and just descend from x to y

Yes, but be reasonable. Don't just descend into Class D airspace without making your intentions known to the radar controller.

3) let them know you're descending from x to y as a courtesy

If you're non-Mode C, yes, otherwise no.

 

[GeorgeC]

Yes, but be reasonable. Don't just descend into Class D airspace without making your intentions known to the radar controller.

I have heard it said that FF makes class D "transparent", but I err on the side of courtesy anyway. I was on FF one time and asked to cut across KSWF's airspace, but the controller said to remain clear. No big deal, ended up flying the gap between KSWF and R-5206.

On the same flight, however, I had another FF controller try to vector me as though I was in a bravo (I was outside, they were vectoring me towards the KPHL bravo when I was trying to go away from it); is there a polite way to ask to resume my own navigation that will not result in a "squawk 1200, seeya"?

 

[midlifeflyer]

4) Read the AIM and follow the recommendation that it provides for use in this situation.

AIM 4-1-15 b.2.

Read the AIM and follow it's recommendations? What a silly idea!

 

[midlifeflyer]

On the same flight, however, I had another FF controller try to vector me as though I was in a bravo (I was outside, they were vectoring me towards the KPHL bravo when I was trying to go away from it); is there a polite way to ask to resume my own navigation that will not result in a "squawk 1200, seeya"?

Why?

If a FF controller is giving me a vector, it's most likely for traffic reasons to keep me out of an arrival or departure lane - in which case, why would I want to resume own nav and deal with traffic issues myself?

If the vector is toward Bravo airspace, I'd simply ask if I were cleared into the Class B. If yes, no problem at all. If not, depending on the response ("it's for traffic; I'll give you a turn as you get closer") you'd have your polite way to ask for something else if you think it's more appropriate.

 

[MarkZ]

When I was at the center, I preferred aircraft let me know when altitude changes, only because we had approach control airspace below us. Rather than cancel the flight following I would try affecting coordination with the neighboring approach control when the pilot informed me of the descent.

At the TRACON, I don't have the same issue. Typically I will ask what altitude the pilot would like to cruise at once clear of the Bravo. If traffic is not a factor, I'll issue a climb into the Bravo to that requested altitude.

 

[roncachamp]

I have heard it said that FF makes class D "transparent", but I err on the side of courtesy anyway. I was on FF one time and asked to cut across KSWF's airspace, but the controller said to remain clear. No big deal, ended up flying the gap between KSWF and R-5206.

On the same flight, however, I had another FF controller try to vector me as though I was in a bravo (I was outside, they were vectoring me towards the KPHL bravo when I was trying to go away from it); is there a polite way to ask to resume my own navigation that will not result in a "squawk 1200, seeya"?

Sure, say "No, thank you."

 

[bcool]

Since we're talking about flight following...

I was using FF yesterday, and was making my descent into KMKC from 6,500'. The controller (who was aware of my destination) cleared me into the [Kansas City] Bravo, with no mention of an altitude restriction. I figured this meant I was cleared to proceed as I saw fit...is that correct?

Similarly, when departing KMKC, I requested FF with an ultimate cruise altitude of 7,500'. After takeoff, and after changing to the departure controller, he told me I was cleared to enter the Bravo - again no mention of altitude restrictions. At that point, was it OK to continue climbing to 7,500? Again, I figured that to be the case since I wasn't given a restriction.

Based on the above, is it a true statement to say that since the controllers were aware of my intentions and there were no traffic conflicts that's why they didn't issue any altitude restrictions?

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Since we're talking about flight following...

I was using FF yesterday, and was making my descent into KMKC from 6,500'. The controller (who was aware of my destination) cleared me into the [Kansas City] Bravo, with no mention of an altitude restriction. I figured this meant I was cleared to proceed as I saw fit...is that correct?

Affirmative.

Similarly, when departing KMKC, I requested FF with an ultimate cruise altitude of 7,500'. After takeoff, and after changing to the departure controller, he told me I was cleared to enter the Bravo - again no mention of altitude restrictions. At that point, was it OK to continue climbing to 7,500? Again, I figured that to be the case since I wasn't given a restriction.

Affirmative.

Based on the above, is it a true statement to say that since the controllers were aware of my intentions and there were no traffic conflicts that's why they didn't issue any altitude restrictions?

Affirmative.

 

[Shawn]

3) let them know you're descending from x to y as a courtesy

More than just a "courtesy"...

AIM 4-1-15 b.2:

"Pilots should also inform the controller when changing VFR cruising altitude."

#3 is correct unless you have been giving a previous altitude restriction.

"Approcah...Skylane 12XYX starting VFR descent to 6500"

No Request...no back and forth with ATC. Most of the time I get a simple "thank you" in response which is all that is needed.

While it does use the word "should" and not "must" not making it a requirement as it may not fit in all situations, advising of an altitude change is the recommended procedure according to the AIM contrary to others that are saying to just change altitudes unannounced while on FF.

 

[willywildes]

I always advise. But having said that. I have ran into (one guy on multiple Occasions) indignant Oakland Center controllers who has advised me and others on frequency. VFR altitudes are your discretion, when talking to center. Does not want to be bothered with your calls.

 

[Shawn]

I always advise. But having said that. I have ran into (one guy on multiple Occasions) indignant Oakland Center controllers who has advised me and others on frequency. VFR altitudes are your discretion, when talking to center. Does not want to be bothered with your calls.

That is why a single statement like "Approach...Skylane 12XYX starting VFR descent to 6500" is a subtle but important difference rather than "Center...Skylane 12XYZ, request altitude change to 6500". The request requires an unnecessary back and forth with ATC and ties up radio time of which they do not wanna be bothered with. The statement complies with the AIM recommendation then it is up to the controller to determine if they are gonna be crabby and tie up more of their radio time with their response!

I rarely hear "statements" on frequency from other VFR pilots...I almost always hear "request" in regards to altitude changes that then require an interaction in response. (not to suggest that you were not communicating that properly, just using an example)

I fly with Oakland Center all the time and haven't personally run into that. I do hear them get snippy with VFR pilots that "request" the change then they have to do the whole "at pilots discretion" back and forth spiel.

 

[woodchucker]

The only time I didn't I was just ducking under some clouds and didn't think to bother the controller (nobody out there in the middle of nowhere). She came on pretty quick just to ask me how low I would be descending as she would lose radar contact.

 

[bobmrg]

I have heard it said that FF makes class D "transparent", but I err on the side of courtesy anyway. I was on FF one time and asked to cut across KSWF's airspace, but the controller said to remain clear. No big deal, ended up flying the gap between KSWF and R-5206.

On the same flight, however, I had another FF controller try to vector me as though I was in a bravo (I was outside, they were vectoring me towards the KPHL bravo when I was trying to go away from it); is there a polite way to ask to resume my own navigation that will not result in a "squawk 1200, seeya"?

Don't rely on hearsay, go to the source. From the Air Traffic Control Handbook:

"2-1-14. COORDINATE USE OF AIRSPACE
a. Ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished before you allow an aircraft under your control to enter another controller's area of jurisdiction.
b. Before you issue control instructions directly or relay through another source to an aircraft which is within another controller's area of jurisdiction that will change that aircraft's heading, route, speed, or altitude, ensure that coordination has been accomplished with each of the controllers listed below whose area of jurisdiction is affected by those instructions unless otherwise specified by a letter of agreement or a facility directive:
1. The controller within whose area of jurisdiction the control instructions will be issued.
2. The controller receiving the transfer of control.
3. Any intervening controller(s) through whose area of jurisdiction the aircraft will pass.
c. If you issue control instructions to an aircraft through a source other than another controller (e.g., ARINC, FSS, another pilot) ensure that the necessary coordination has been accomplished with any controllers listed in subparas b1, 2, and 3, whose area of jurisdiction is affected by those instructions unless otherwise specified by a letter of agreement or a facility directive."

Section 2-1-16 deals with coordinating entry into a surface area controlled by another facility. In either case, coordination is the responsibility of the controller, not the pilot. Of course, if operational considerations require that you remain clear of certain airspace that is within the purview of the controller who is responsible for that airspace.

Bob Gardner

 

[bobmrg]

The only time I didn't I was just ducking under some clouds and didn't think to bother the controller (nobody out there in the middle of nowhere). She came on pretty quick just to ask me how low I would be descending as she would lose radar contact.

Her pay grade depends in part on traffic count. You aren't doing a controller any favors by staying silent.

Bob Gardner

 

[woodchucker]

Her pay grade depends in part on traffic count. You aren't doing a controller any favors by staying silent.

Bob Gardner

I was still with her on frequency. Do you mean planes communicating with, or communications per time unit?

You aren't being factitious are you? Controller pay depends directly in part on the number of communications issued? I thought the number of controllers would depend on volume of traffic.

 

[txflyer]

Option 3 and when we get near I tell them "cessna xxx we're starting our decent profile."

They always seem to appreciate it...

 

[RyanB]

I would say #3, let them know.. Hey I would like to start a decent down to 4500'. Unless you are around congested airspace it shouldn't be a problem, even though you're VFR, I still like to let atc know my intentions.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would say #3, let them know.. Hey I would like to start a decent down to 4500'. Unless you are around congested airspace it shouldn't be a problem, even though you're VFR, I still like to let atc know my intentions.

Better yet, "Hey, were are starting out descent down to 4500." See Shawn's post about the difference between "advising" ATC of altitude changes (per the AIM) and "requesting" altitude changes when altitude is at your discretion to begin with (unless, of course, ATC has instructed you to maintain an altitude).

 

[bobmrg]

I was still with her on frequency. Do you mean planes communicating with, or communications per time unit?

You aren't being factitious are you? Controller pay depends directly in part on the number of communications issued? I thought the number of controllers would depend on volume of traffic.

I was not being facetious. However, as a retired controller roncachamp is in a better position to supply details than I am.


Bob

 

[poadeleted20]

when on flight following and you want to change altitude, do you?

1) request altitude change from x to y
2) go ahead and just descend from x to y
3) let them know you're descending from x to y as a courtesy

Depends on what ATC has told me. If ATC hasn't said anything about it ahead of time, I pick #3 even though it's not required -- strictly as a courtesy. However, if ATC has said "advise prior to any altitude change", then #3 becomes mandatory, not just a courtesy. And if ATC has said something like "maintain VFR at or above 5500", then I'll go with #1 before going below 5500 (or whatever it is they said not to do).

 

[poadeleted20]

I have heard it said that FF makes class D "transparent"

It is when ATC knows your intentions, but if you deviate from what you said you'd do, the radar controller will not be able to anticipate your action and coordinate with the tower controller. So if you want to descend into D-space while under flight following, make sure the radar controller knows what you're going to do enough before you'll enter the D-space to make the coordination with Tower. Remember -- surprises are not fair play on either side of the pilot-controller relationship.

 

[willywildes]

That is why a single statement like "Approach...Skylane 12XYX starting VFR descent to 6500" is a subtle but important difference rather than "Center...Skylane 12XYZ, request altitude change to 6500". The request requires an unnecessary back and forth with ATC and ties up radio time of which they do not wanna be bothered with. The statement complies with the AIM recommendation then it is up to the controller to determine if they are gonna be crabby and tie up more of their radio time with their response!

I rarely hear "statements" on frequency from other VFR pilots...I almost always hear "request" in regards to altitude changes that then require an interaction in response. (not to suggest that you were not communicating that properly, just using an example)

I fly with Oakland Center all the time and haven't personally run into that. I do hear them get snippy with VFR pilots that "request" the change then they have to do the whole "at pilots discretion" back and forth spiel.

I totally agree with you about a lot of people requesting a altitude change With center. He doesn't want to even be advised, of altitude changes. But then The next sector controller or shift change controller will politely ask you to advise next time you make an altitude change so I think it's a gray area. Or personal preference of the person working that sector. Like i say, I have found its one guy, and I know his voice so I don't request, or advise.

 

[jordane93]

Number 3

 

[Approach_controller]

Care if I turn the question?

I never got so much confusion over this same question as a controller until VERY recently. Advise me, don't advise me, unless you're in class B or C as a radar guy, I don't care unless I've given you traffic or specifically stated maintain X for traffic.

What I'm running in to is a string of pilots droning in to airports that are under the class B shelves at cruise. "Good evening altimeter 29.92" Fast forward to 10 miles out at 4,000 AGL a half mile already in the Bravo. "um am I cleared into the Bravo?" "Uh yeah if you need it cleared into the class Bravo." 3 mile final at 4,000 AGL "can I descend now?" Alternatively, no Bravo in question, its class Echo, "Umm approach I'd like to start down from 5,000 AGL the airport is 5 miles away now." All with the tone of Hey jerk you forgot about me. "Roger/OK/Sounds Good."

Its like this isn't taught anymore. I counted 9 pilots in one hour ask for bravo clearances who didn't need them (unless over the threshold at 2,500 AGL is the new thing), plug away at cruise, act put out and snotty over having to ask for a Bravo clearance, and not figure out that you avoid Bravo on your own and plan for it. Turns out they all thought ATC dictates altitude in ANY airspace in flight following.

I've even seen this in class E just today. Someone flies in in class E too afraid to descend out of cruise. Checks in 8 miles from the field at no kidding 5,000 AGL. Check in happens and he tells me he'd like to descend. I say roger. 3 minutes pass and he's still level! N123 are you descending Sir? Uhhhhhh yeah I'll descend now. I watched him do 3 full upwind/crosswind/downwind/base legs losing altitude.

Is there a polite easy way to tell a pilot they don't need my permission to not violate airspace or for that matter act as PIC during a VFR flight?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Is there a polite easy way to tell a pilot they don't need my permission to not violate airspace or for that matter act as PIC during a VFR flight?

Probably not. In the situations you describe you are dealing with two phenomena that are not easy to overcome on the fly (so to speak). Pilot education, which you mentioned. And an assiciated fear of a perceived authority figure.

 

[MarkZ]

Is there a polite easy way to tell a pilot they don't need my permission to not violate airspace or for that matter act as PIC during a VFR flight?

Maybe try an on the spot correction on the frequency (respectfully of course). Most of the time the response is gracious and positive.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Maybe try an on the spot correction on the frequency (respectfully of course). Most of the time the response is gracious and positive.

Effective for that flight; not necessarily for the next one.

 

[mkosmo]

Is there a polite easy way to tell a pilot they don't need my permission to not violate airspace or for that matter act as PIC during a VFR flight?

Cessna XXX, cleared to perform duties of PIC at your discretion. Remain clear of terra firma. Squawk VFR, frequency changed approved, have a great day.



But I'm an *******.

 

[nosehair]

I just love this stuff
Never ceases ....