question

Robert, I think the thing that got to me finally was the abusive nature, or lack of civility, in what started out to be HT only and then spread. The so called "Freedom of Speech" theory being tossed around is like any other freedom, you have it until you abuse it and it removes other people's ability to pursue happiness.

Ignoring the "right or wrong" arguments, there are three (possibly four) posters whose vitriolic attacks on any person with a different opinion, using emotionally laden derogatory terms just downright p*ssed me off. Several very pre-eminant posters tried to reason with these people only to be turned on by that pack of rabid dogs.

I have been an active participant in the AOPA Webboard since I joined AOPA in 1999 when I was a student pilot. It has been an invaluable source of information for me over the years - getting the "why" questions answered, helping me over stumbling blocks in the "book" learning, information about planned destinations/routes and now I've moved into plane ownership a lot of "how do I do this".

I'm not leaving the AOPA webboard but I now only post very specific requests for information or answers, and read every posting three times before actually posting. It is now strictly informational and the fun of chat is gone.

It may not be the correct political answer, but I think if the users of the board could vote people off it could be resolved rather quickly.

Barry
 
Well, I just got back from a meeting at NIST in Boulder, so I haven't looked at the AOPA board in a few days. HT is off the deep end again? Good grief. I like a good debate, but civility is necessary. I don't claim to be an angel (my wife would disabuse me of any such pretentions immediately), but there are some folks (who I generally agree with politically) who really need to tone down their acts. I hang out on a moderated Jeep bulletin board and we NEVER have the problems that HT has. The owner of the site would NEVER tolerate it and everyone knows it. One poster has been banned from the site for going over the line. I don't know of any others. It hasn't been necessary. People came to that site from another one which was out of control and it has been a great place to be since. Low key moderators (with teeth) work well.

I think the AOPA board needs:

1. Standards of conduct. Agree to them or you can't post on the board (something like here).
2. Only AOPA members may post, and, except for Medical Matters and Never Again, NO anonymous posts.
3. People who can't control themselves and become abusive to other posters are banned.
4. Oh, and feed the squirrels more often. :D

I don't want that board to go away. As noted by others, the content in the areas outside of HT is too valuable. When I was a student pilot a few years ago I learned a great deal on that board, knowledge that impressed my CFI. I still learn from the experts. Unfortunatly, some of those experts have left because of the actions of a few and I mess their contributions. I hope that I haven't contributed to that loss.

Robert, good luck. We are rooting for you.

Ghery
 
sshekels said:
LOL - I _think_ that might be the WRONG U of M - I am in chilly Minnesota with Lance, and co.

Funny we have an Orono as well! :)

S.
Click to expand...

Another Gopher heard from!
Nice to see so many familiar names on this board.

I, like some of the posters above (below?), quit posting over there a while ago after the unstable, schizophrenic, religious/political zealots started their unrestrained campaign. They will surely bring down the board. What happened to civil people having interesting discussions about our common passion? It was so much fun a year or two ago and I looked forward logging on. Now I don't have anything to read over there because I have to skip so many posts.

Well, at least I got to go flying today - a $150 fish sandwich in Brainerd (KBRD).
Hope everyone has a great weekend,
Eric
________
Wendie 99
 
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It will be interesting to see how many of us (and who) participate only here or also continue at AOPA. I'm not sure what to predict. Also, I'm interested to see how this forum responds if/when some of the less diplomatic participants from AOPA start coming here--but are polite and measured in their responses. Or whether the tone of their responses changes over there. Sort of an interesting social experiment!

Regards-- Hunter
 
Handsfield said:
Also, I'm interested to see how this forum responds if/when some of the less diplomatic participants from AOPA start coming here--but are polite and measured in their responses. Or whether the tone of their responses changes over there. Sort of an interesting social experiment!

Regards-- Hunter
Click to expand...

Hunter~
Welcome! It's good to see you discovered the board along with the rest of us. The increase in members in the past few days is encouraging I think.

Was just on the home page, and noticed that 21 were on board at the moment, 9 of whom are guests, so it appears that folks are looking the board over.

I honestly feel that anyone who comes on board and minds their manners will receive a warm reception. Although I was tired of the tirades, I hold little animosity towards anyone if they will play by the rules. I suspect most feel the same way, but only time will tell.

I frequent a couple of other boards as well, and now that we are past the opening day "staggers", I think I'll drop the suggestion that they drop by for a look.
 
Handsfield said:
Also, I'm interested to see how this forum responds if/when some of the less diplomatic participants from AOPA start coming here--but are polite and measured in their responses. Or whether the tone of their responses changes over there. Sort of an interesting social experiment!
Click to expand...
The Management Team has brought that very issue up. Everyone starts 'clean' here, regardless of history elsewhere. There are plenty of tools here to allow both us as administrators/moderators and every user here to put a quick stop to any incivil...noncivil?...behavior.
 
The problem we saw on another site was, with the software available, a person really intent on posting trash could slip in, do their damage, maybe get kicked off.... then login again with another user id and if necessary a new hotmail address. Hopefully this software is not like that and can exclude logins by IP address?
More hopefully, we are done with the time-bandits of our past.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The problem we saw on another site was, with the software available, a person really intent on posting trash could slip in, do their damage, maybe get kicked off.... then login again with another user id and if necessary a new hotmail address. Hopefully this software is not like that and can exclude logins by IP address?
More hopefully, we are done with the time-bandits of our past.
Click to expand...

That's where a membership ID like AOPA (not something made up without additional verification) helps kick actual users, not ID's off thus making a new email/userid useless.

Control by IP is an interesting idea but us dialup types get a new IP every single time we connect. That's 15 seconds tops. (Sorry, that's just the way it is)

While quite effective, and if the designers are devious enough, please do not even think about loading software on someone's system to lock it out by end computer. Effective but very rude. The world has enough of the insidious stuff going around even if it's intended to be useful. We have things like that at work by corporate policy and it's extremely uncool even in a business environment. Stuff like that at home is strictly off limits IMNSHO.

As you say though, hopefully the time-bandits are done.


For the origional question that started this thread:
Rules: As I've said before; Play fair, be nice. Self control and civility. You know, the things you learn in kindergarten or before. Yea, that stuff. :) In an ideal world, we wouldn't have to have any rules because everyone would be nice to each other. But the Rules of Conduct on this site are a good general guideline for reality.
I particularly like the interface there. Dirt simple to use and comfortable after just a few minutes of use.
Personally (and no offense intended to those who are in that position especially since it's needed and serving a purpose) I don't care for moderation since that's just having big brother babysitting. That's something that self control can solve so easily but people are people...


Play fair, Be nice. :)

OMG how POA is such a peaceful stressless change of pace... :yinyang: :)
 
fgcason said:
Control by IP is an interesting idea but us dialup types get a new IP every single time we connect. That's 15 seconds tops. (Sorry, that's just the way it is)
Click to expand...
IP address tracing/blocking can usually be done via netmask, too. Chances are you'd be coming from a known IP block. All I'd have to do is apply the restrictions to the entire network block for a few days, until you get bored and move on. ;)

fgcason said:
While quite effective, and if the designers are devious enough, please do not even think about loading software on someone's system to lock it out by end computer. Effective but very rude. The world has enough of the insidious stuff going around even if it's intended to be useful. We have things like that at work by corporate policy and it's extremely uncool even in a business environment. Stuff like that at home is strictly off limits IMNSHO.
Click to expand...
Any site installing software for any type of remote control applications is opening itself to serious legal issues without the right safeguards in place. Those safeguards wouldn't be present in your scenario. Those of us who are familiar with network security, penetration techniques, etc., would catch something like that fairly fast.

On a side note, the corporate environment is a different playground, with different rules. I use several systems on all of my workstations/laptops to assist with management and security problems. Since they've been in place, the company's network downtime can be measured in minutes per WEEK...instead of hours per week or even day. And that minutes per week downtime is me doing security updates and rebooting...usually on Sunday evenings. ;)


OMG how POA is such a peaceful stressless change of pace... :yinyang: :)[/QUOTE]
 
Of course the downside to netmask blocking is that if you have to resort to one, you can end up blocking someone else out that's a good user while blocking out a bad one.

These issues can be worked around - but as Brian said, usually you only have to block someone long enough for them to get bored and move on. :)
 
Robert said:
Okay, it may be the Yuengling I have been consuming this evening, but beyond what anybody here has posted to the survey on the AOPA site, what do you want to see in a forum?
Rules? What ones?
Dedicated login linked to the AOPA membership?
A server that works? That can be cured on the AOPA site.
New style interface?
limited login capability?
Robert, from AOPA.
Click to expand...

Hi Robert,

Someone else mentioned civility or lack thereof...that's a great place to start, but we've changed as a society in recent years. It would be great if just asking folks to act a little less antagonistic towards each other would do it.

Bruce mentioned the AvWeb lawsuit in his reply and if anything is going to bother AOPA enough to do something about modifying the current tone of the Hangar Talk forum on the WebBoard, potentially being a named party should do it.

That issue practically answers itself if AOPA continues to host the Hangar Talk forum...

It's a sad reality, but protection against potential legal action seems to demand a board moderator representing the entity legally responsible for the administration.

At $39 for the 'posting rights', having dedicated logins linked to membership does little to ensure that those with the ability to post (anonymously or not) aren't there for selfish reasons.

By design or not, posts made to the AOPA board in recent weeks already seem to indicate a member or members there may be positioning themselves to initiate legal action against the association and -by- association, any members they choose to include.

Maybe the Hangar Talk forum on AOPA is ready for retirement and a place like PILOTSOFAMERICA is a natural successor.

If I wanted to belong to an association who's specific existence was to promote right-wing or left-wing political and/or religious agendas, pro-this, anti-that, I'd hope it wouldn't be AOPA (and obviously, not PILOTSOFAMERICA as well).

For an evaluation of what might be 'good' for the WebBoard, look at what is allowed in AOPA Pilot.

Best regards,
 
Robert,

I commented on the AOPA questionaire, but would like to expand my comments.

I run a professional society e-mail list of about 300 subscribers. When they join the list, they get a message indicating that discussions are to be kept civil, no flames, no personal attacks. They are told that they may be unsubscribed at the discretion of the webmaster.

There are definitely disagreements, but in about 5 years of the list, we have had only one person definitely, intentionally, and publically attack other members on the list. That was a person in private practice making generally disparaging (and mostly untrue) remarks about persons in public employment. It was a personal attack on a group, similar to the attacks on "libs" (or neocons) which are going on on the AOPA webpage. The purpose of our list is exchange of professional related information and general announcements of our society, so this was definitely out of line. The person tried to argue his right to free speach. I felt he was a threat to our society and our membership, and essentially put him on moderation, although he didn't know it. He shortly thereafter quit our organization.

Our only other problems were "accidents" - untoward remarks which were sent back to the mailing list indvertantly by hitting "reply" which means "The List" rather than responding directly to an individual. A few people have done this, including myself, and appologies were soon offered.

For the most agregious, I disagree with "3 strikes". Post the rules, then, 1 warning. Those who won't comply should be removed for a time, or, if allowed back on and they continue their behavior, permanently if necessary.

One of the problems with allowing such attacks is that a personal attack often leads to resentment which is reflected in similar attacks against the originator. As has been seen, this can lead to a meltdown.

This board and the AOPA web board are places to discuss primarily Aviation. Other topics are a sideline. As another member here said, if these were a real discussions in a hanger and some of the attacks we've seen were made, I'd leave. If it were an FBO, I'd take my business elsewhere too.

Tyler
 
Robert said:
Okay, it may be the Yuengling I have been consuming this evening, but beyond what anybody here has posted to the survey on the AOPA site, what do you want to see in a forum?
Rules? What ones?
Dedicated login linked to the AOPA membership?
A server that works? That can be cured on the AOPA site.
New style interface?
limited login capability?
Robert, from AOPA.
Click to expand...

Robert,

You've gotten plenty of responses on this and all of them good but I'll add my 2 cents.

I think the AOPA forums should be dedicated to those with memberships.
The software flakes out on my computers at least once a week, usually lasts a couple of days.
The interface isn't that bad. This one can get confusing but I've been on several that use this so I'm used to it.


I prefer moderated forums if the moderators are good. This means they only step in to enforce the existing rules. If a moderator has a "power" complex it can ruin things quickly and should be addressed by the board sysop or the other moderators.

So far all I've seen here is great. I feel a lot more at ease posting here since I don't feel like there are several people just waiting to pounce.
 
Thank you all for the responses. I know that we still have all options open at this time as to what we will do with the board. I do not have an inside line on which way we will go so far. When I find out, I will post what I know to the AOPA site.
Robert
 
Robert,
Since you asked.
Rules?
There should always be rules. If none other than "common courtetsy".
What ones?
Again. I think they should be simple, and broad. Everyone does, or should know, what is decent behavior. I would leave the discretion up to the owners of the board. Anyone that steps over the line should be told and given a chance to edit their post. If they don't edit the post, it should be done for them. Freedom of speech does not apply here. Freedom of Speech, if it exists, only exists because of the U.S. Constitution. That constitution only applies restrictions upon the U.S.Government. Any board owned or operated by a private entity has every right to restrict any and all speech by those that participate.

At any rate, if one or more individuals continue to step over the line, they should be censored as they APPROACH the line rather than after they step over. If they insist on behaving badly, they should be removed from the board.

In addition, if a post is edited by management, or a member is removed, there should be a post explaining the reasons. Leave the offending thread, but lock it. This would serve to demonstrate board policy, what will be tolerated, and what will not.

Dedicated login linked to the AOPA membership?
Most definitely. Until recently, I thought membership was a requirement.

A server that works?
I think the server works fine. An automatic reboot, or whatever it is that is done to restore speed, once or twice a week would be nice. But whenever it gets slow, I remember the days before I had a cable modem and it suddenly doesn't seem so bad.

New style interface?
I like the interface used over there. I am not so sure I like this one. Maybe it is because I haven't fully figured out the proper operation.

limited login capability?
Yes, members only. I don't suppose it is so important that we know everyones real name, but we should be confident that the name is linked to a real breathing member, and that member is answerable for their posts.

Having said all that, I think a lot of the problem on the AOPA web board was caused, or at least aggrivated by those that maintained that they didn't like where the board was headed. IMNSHO, if everyone would have simply stopped posting replies to the offending posts, rather than trying to reason with what appeared to be unreasonable individuals the "argument" would have had one of two endings. Either the "offending" persons would notice that everyone is ignoring them and stopped, or they would have continued to argue with themselves (which may have been amusing in and of itself).
 
Robert said:
Okay, it may be the Yuengling I have been consuming this evening, but beyond what anybody here has posted to the survey on the AOPA site, what do you want to see in a forum?
Rules? What ones?
Dedicated login linked to the AOPA membership?
A server that works? That can be cured on the AOPA site.
New style interface?
limited login capability?
Robert, from AOPA.
Click to expand...

Over the years, I've participated in countless Usenet, CIS and web-based discussion forums. I can even remember a few discussions back on Fidonet, not to mention the dialup BBS systems that that preceded the 'net'. In pretty much all cases, the aim was open discussion, encouraging debate from all sides of the issue in order to educate, inform and enlighten. After all, man is a social creature at heart, and we only grow by sharing and gaining new knowledge and insight.

Most recently, I was a SysOp on a number of Microsoft run chat rooms (part of the MSN Gaming Zone). With 200+ users in a particular chat room, there were always a couple who wanted to try and bully the rest, or play "bait the SysOp".

There were always two ways to deal with these types - try to reason with them, explain why they couldn't do what they were doing, give multiple warnings, engage in private conversations and so on. Sometimes that even worked. Usually though, things would slowly escalate until the first such 'martyr' of the day ended up having their chat rights removed for 24hours, their 'associates' realized that the SysOps were actually serious, and behaviour quickly returned to normal. Of course, the accusations of favoritism, bias, inconsistency and unfairness abounded even though we took great pains to be as fair and impartial as possible. Logs of the chat, what was done, and the reasoning behind it had to be submitted to Microsoft (for their Lawyers) in every case. I cannot tell you how many times I (a Brit ex-pat) informed irate teenagers that the 1st amendment DIDN''T mean they could say whatever they liked whenever they wanted too in a private forum. Racial epithets, death threats, hack attempts and so on were just part of the 'Job' for which I was paid nothing ;)

So why the huge background explanation ? Simply put, you have to have some basic set of rules by which everyone agrees to abide. Without them, anything goes, and you will rapidly descend to the level of the lowest common denominator. You cross the line, you expect to take the consequences. This was a simple concept that young teens could understand on a Gaming website, but seems impossible to convey to Adults whom one would assume are at least moderately successful in life based on their ability to afford this expensive hobby !

Lately, the HT boards in particular have become a free-fire zone, anything is acceptable, anyone is a target. It actually made me laugh that people got upset about language used, but were indifferent to the continued personal attacks that went far beyond a few bad words and had been going on for literally months! Both sides of the 'debate' were espousing restraint and claiming injury, while continuing to flame and insult on a regular basis.

The cure is simple, and has worked on countless forums and chat systems around the world for years - set the rules up front, enforce the rules consistently, and remove those that cannot/will not comply with those rules. The issue is not one of free speech, the issue is not one of censorship - the issue is one of civility. Those that cannot conduct themselves in accordance with the rules will then be subject to sanction.

I wish you luck Robert - the path forward is not free from obstacles or potholes, but the destination is worth the journey.
 
judypilot said:
-snip-
As much as the incivility on the AOPA web forum, I'm also tired of seeing posts by the same people over and over and over again, especially when their behavior is predictable
Judy
Click to expand...

Ditto. I just found PoA today. Glad to see so many familiar names! The AOPA board is dead to me.....

Greg

182RG
 
I haven't kept up with the AOPA Board goings-on as much as some of you (to see the possible legal postioning, etc.) I appreciate the POA board for its civility and respect for each pilot, not just the self-proclaimed experts. As somone said, some of the responses are soooo predictable (and may I add pedestrian?). So this board is the rose without the thorns, in my opinion. Thank you, guys, for all the work you're doing to make a place for us to talk.
 
Civility, and Moderators.

The Doctor is right. In the last few months I saw at least ten posts at AOPA that could have resulted in a viable court case, not to mention perpetuating a mean spirited toxic atmosphere. The forum was called "hanger talk" but it wasn't. Real Hanger talk may involved a few colorful words and strong opinions but Bill's point is valid, when your face to face with another human you tend to pull your punches and behave yourself.
What developed at AOPA's forum was something more like playground bullies. You got sucked into it and everyone involved looks like a real jerk, myself included.

Nobody wants a moderator but its a safety-net that must be tolerated.
 
It's a jungle out there... but better that jungle than censored writing. If any people are offended by ANYTHING written then they would probably be more comfortable not risking communication with the general public.

But better yet, upon reading any such material in question, post an exceptionally astute reply.
 
Because I posted it some time ago, please review the following thread before continuing the discussion in this thread:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/showthread.php?t=67

We do not want to go down the path of becoming critical of any other sites, particularly AOPA, nor should this thread degrade into any discussion of users of other sites, by name or by implication.

Robert asked specific questions.

Given the sensitivity of this topic, please try to limit your answers accordingly.
 
Robert, per Chuck's notice I will try to just answer your questions, although I also want to restate my appreciation for your efforts.

what do you want to see in a forum?
Click to expand...

These are my wants, not necessarily my needs:

I want to be able to identify aviation vs non-aviation topics. I am generally far more interested in the former. I don't want to have to wade through a few hundred posts to find the five or ten aviation related threads.

I want the forum to appear as a friendly place to newcomers. IMO that means eliminating the majority or offensive posts and/or ones that come across as attacks on a person or group.

Rules? What ones?
Click to expand...

I also believe strongly that some rules are necessary and if in place must be enforced. The rules I would want involve eliminating abusive and attacking behavior along with foul language. I don't believe that topics need be restricted to aviation only, but there should be a forum set aside for nothing but non-aviation threads. I'd also like be able to eliminate political and religious posts from my viewing of a non-aviation forum, but I can't visualize a practical means to that end.

Dedicated login linked to the AOPA membership?
Click to expand...

Assuming that would minimize the current problem of deliberate identity confusion, yes. I also think it's very important to make it so that only AOPA members can post.

A server that works? That can be cured on the AOPA site.
Click to expand...

I'd sure like to see the slowdown problem cured. There are many times when it's just too painfully slow to read and respond to posts.

New style interface?
Click to expand...

The only problem I have with the current software is the difficulty in dealing with a forum containing a large quantity of unread messages, especially WRT marking post as read. Given that this appears to be a sticky problem with no obvious solution, I couldn't recommend changing webboard software at this point.

limited login capability?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you meant by this one.
 
I believe that Limited Login Capability refers to restricting individuals to the creation of only one login id, vs. the current ability to create as many bogus ids as desired.
 
No religious threads ? Does that mean I can't preach the gospel of Aviation anymore ? <G>

lancefisher said:
Robert, per Chuck's notice I will try to just answer your questions, although I also want to restate my appreciation for your efforts.



These are my wants, not necessarily my needs:

I want to be able to identify aviation vs non-aviation topics. I am generally far more interested in the former. I don't want to have to wade through a few hundred posts to find the five or ten aviation related threads.

I want the forum to appear as a friendly place to newcomers. IMO that means eliminating the majority or offensive posts and/or ones that come across as attacks on a person or group.



I also believe strongly that some rules are necessary and if in place must be enforced. The rules I would want involve eliminating abusive and attacking behavior along with foul language. I don't believe that topics need be restricted to aviation only, but there should be a forum set aside for nothing but non-aviation threads. I'd also like be able to eliminate political and religious posts from my viewing of a non-aviation forum, but I can't visualize a practical means to that end.



Assuming that would minimize the current problem of deliberate identity confusion, yes. I also think it's very important to make it so that only AOPA members can post.



I'd sure like to see the slowdown problem cured. There are many times when it's just too painfully slow to read and respond to posts.



The only problem I have with the current software is the difficulty in dealing with a forum containing a large quantity of unread messages, especially WRT marking post as read. Given that this appears to be a sticky problem with no obvious solution, I couldn't recommend changing webboard software at this point.



I'm not sure what you meant by this one.
Click to expand...
 
I know you're kidding, Dave, but to avoid confusion - no subject is verbotten here.

Only certain types of behavior are prohibited. :)
 
I'd heard so much about it, I finally had to go to the AOPA hangar talk forum... and I couldn't find any of the flaming emails I was looking for, just to see how bad they were.

I did find posts ABOUT such emails, and suggested that rather than censure them, reply to them with particularly astute responses.
 
That is because the AOPA forums auto-purge messages in Hangar Talk after approximately a month. Some of the forums expire their messages more slowly than others.

You've missed some of the absolute worst examples of behavior that were seen over there in some time. It's settled down significantly in the last few weeks.
 
Thanks Chuck,

I don't mean to belabor the subject, but because of my association with the aviation website: MOUNTAINFLYINGVIDEOS.com, I wish I could get more of a sense about areas of this apparently great concern, as we do get some email comments there on the user feedback forms, and also some general comments/questions (all have been almost unanimously highly positive !).
 
as stated previously, i would like to see civility. there are people over there just looking to start arguments for the sake of arguing. Pehaps these people miss their High school debate team days <g>.
 
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