Pulled gear up on touchdown, bad result

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I was with a CFI working on getting a check out for complex. First flight out yesterday, 3 good landings and then I apparently pulled the gear up as the nose was coming down. I guess I was thinking I was lifting the flaps up since we were doing a touch n go.

The CFI tried to put the gear back down but it was too late. We skidded on the nose, prop bent, no injuries.

I don't believe I need to report this and I don't have the FAR/AIM paragraph to cite since the CFI I was flying with looked it up. I paid $1500 towards whoever's insurance requires that for a deductible. I didn't take any pics and went back asking to do so but the FBO owner where I rented the plane didn't want me to do that until he speaks to the leaseback owner.

Is there anything else I'm supposed to do?
 
Touch no handles till clear of the runway. Think what you are doing ,verify it ,then do it.
 
The right answer is to consult an aviation attorney.

49 CFR 830.2 seems to exclude the damage you describe for mandatory reporting to NTSB. Provided there isn't any additional damage you don't know about.
 
NASA form
Get those pictures even if you need to walk into a hangar with an open door
Immediately write up the details of the event - you'll forget them as time passes
Never pay anything until requested - that was your first mistake.
Get a written statement from the CFI describing the event.
All further communication with the CFI, FBO, etc must be in writing.

Now that's taken care of....Bent prop may require an engine tear down. Go back and read the rental agreement in excruciating detail and find out if you're going to be on the hook for anything else.

Find a contract lawyer, just in case. Do not believe the CFI, the FBO or the AIM.
 
FWIW, when I'm giving training in a retractable gear aircraft and we're going to do T&G's, I tell them that I will handle the flaps (both wing and cowl) on the roll so they can focus on controlling the aircraft. Since nobody does T&G's as an operational practice, only for training, and you're not going to touch the flaps until safely airborne on a balked landing, I don't see that as negative training.

BTW, a few years back when David Fletcher was still operating a flight school at HOU, one of his instructors violated a school rule against T&G's in retractables by having a trainee do a T&G in one of the school's Cougars. The result was much the same as the OP's. The instructor was immediately fired for violating that rule (IIRC, his final paycheck went to cover the deductible) but the trainee was merely retrained.

One last point -- if the FAA hears about the OP's event, the instructor is almost certainly going to get a 709 ride.
 
That gear-up thing happens regularly. Some pilots get into the habit of reaching for the flaps right after touchdown, either for a touch-and-go, or because the flaps increase lift and decrease traction for braking. We used to teach the student to get off the runway to a full stop before touching anything. Didn't do touch-and-goes for the same reason. We did have a close call once when a guy from a different school came along and did exactly what the OP did, but the instructor caught it before the nosegear unlatched. Just in time, by microseconds.

When that prop hits the runway, the engine has to come apart, especially if it's a Lycoming. There's an AD against any Lyc that has had a propstrike.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
When that prop hits the runway, the engine has to come apart, especially if it's a Lycoming. There's an AD against any Lyc that has had a propstrike.
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Same for Continental. If the prop has to be removed for repair, the engine needs to be torn down.
 
Dan Thomas said:
That gear-up thing happens regularly. Some pilots get into the habit of reaching for the flaps right after touchdown, either for a touch-and-go, or because the flaps increase lift and decrease traction for braking. We used to teach the student to get off the runway to a full stop before touching anything.
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not to stray too far off topic, but that is a reason I'm glad to have a johnson bar. no mistaking it for the flaps lever. my CFII said the same stuff you guys have mentioned--people hitting gear lever instead of flaps.
 
Unregistered said:
I was with a CFI working on getting a check out for complex. First flight out yesterday, 3 good landings and then I apparently pulled the gear up as the nose was coming down. I guess I was thinking I was lifting the flaps up since we were doing a touch n go.
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Out of curiousity, what were you flying? A Beech?
 
rbridges said:
not to stray too far off topic, but that is a reason I'm glad to have a johnson bar. no mistaking it for the flaps lever.
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Unless you hop out of your Cherokee Arrow and into an older Mooney.

my CFII said the same stuff you guys have mentioned--people hitting gear lever instead of flaps.
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There's also the issue of those switches being on different sides in different airplanes. The Grumman Cougar has flaps right/gear left on either side of the throttle console, while the Piper PA23-series (Apache/Aztec) is reversed. Beech flip-flopped them on the Baron some time in the 70's (same time they reversed the prop and throttle levers, IIRC). And on those twins, a gear-up incident is twice as expensive. :eek:

BTW, when I went through VT-1 in 1973, the Navy was just leaving the flaps down for T&G's in T-34B's, and that's what we did in the fleet, too (all types on the carrier). Can't screw it up if you don't touch it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Is that an FAA AD or a TCM SB? In the case of the Lycomings, it's an FAA AD, so it's regulatory. I'm curious about that for the Continental engines.
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It is not an AD.

IIRC, it is in the maintenance manual for the engine. Went through this with the shop when I lost my skull cap spinner on the 170 (prop sliced it in two). When the question came up of whether or not the engine needed to be torn down, the determining factor was whether or not the prop had to come off. In my case, the only damage was scratched paint on the leading edge. I'll see if I can find the right reference.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It is not an AD.

IIRC, it is in the maintenance manual for the engine.
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In that case, it would be mandatory for 121/135 operators who have to follow manufacturer's recommended maintenance procedures (unless they have an FAA-approved alternate program, which in this case I'd be very surprised if it would be approved without the teardown inspection), but up to the owner/operator's judgment for noncommercial operators like most of us here. OTOH, the AD makes it mandatory for all of us with the Lycomings.
 
Just curious. Was the CFI provided by the same person that is providing you the airplane? I only ask because if I were providing complex training in an airplane that I "come with" and I allowed that to happen there is no way in hell I would let the student pick up the bill. I would be paying.

OTOH If I were doing a flight review in a privately owned retract and the owner just out of nowhere yanked the gear up I would not feel personally responsible for his deductible.

If a private owner bought a retract, was an experienced pilot, and I were providing his/her "checkout" training and that happened I would be pretty conflicted as to who would pay. Espesially since the first thing I always drive home is not to touch the gear or flap switch while the aircraft is in motion (on the ground) and not without positively identifying it visually and verbally.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Beech flip-flopped them on the Baron some time in the 70's (same time they reversed the prop and throttle levers, IIRC).
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1984 was the year they made the switch. The change only affected 58 models and model 36 Bo's. The 55's kept the old style until production was complete.

The NTSB did a pretty extensive study on the non-standard layout of Beech airplanes because of the excessively high rate of inadvertant gear retractions.You might have been thinking 70's because the NTSB study focused on accidents that occured in the 70's. They also noted that while the Apache had a non-standard layout, the gear switch had a latch mechanism that you had to overcome in order to raise the gear and the PA23s had nowhere near the problem of inadvertant gear retraction as the Beech planes.
 
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Thinking of two things here.

I follow the don't touch anything till clear of the runway, including the pump on my Arrow.

As Ron said don't hop out of an Arrow, or any PA28 for that matter and into a Mooney with a Johnson Bar as they also have a Johnson bar arrangement for the flaps.

Be careful out there.
 
MAKG1 said:
The right answer is to consult an aviation attorney.

49 CFR 830.2 seems to exclude the damage you describe for mandatory reporting to NTSB. Provided there isn't any additional damage you don't know about.
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Yes.....an aviation attorney! Regular attorneys are in the dark about aviation matters but will B.S. You about their vast knowledge. Engine will have to be torn down and inspected for sure unless there was no prop strike. Renters insurance is a must today if you rent.
 
jesse said:
I only ask because if I were providing complex training in an airplane that I "come with" and I allowed that to happen there is no way in hell I would let the student pick up the bill. I would be paying.
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I guess it depends.

I had a student bounce a wheel landing in a Citabria once, and on the third bounce he got the prop. It was a pretty hard and unexpected push that got it, but I obviously contributed by not acting sooner.

But when the student offered to help, it seemed like a nice gesture. IIRC, it was about $400 each for a new fixed-pitch prop. No tear down was done, but this was in the 80's when there seemed more latitude on things like that.
 
The CFI was provided by the FBO and is someone I had flown with before through the FBO. The instructors are subcontractors there.

I was the one that pulled the gear but the aviation atty I spoke to said it's an interesting question who is PIC and then who is responsible for a student's mistake.

I want to be able to continue renting from the FBO, assuming they'll let me fly what I usually fly (fixed gear) so unless there's some significant reason I shouldn't pay for the deduct then I would present that to them.

It was not a Beech.....so that eliminates that incident?

jesse said:
Just curious. Was the CFI provided by the same person that is providing you the airplane? I only ask because if I were providing complex training in an airplane that I "come with" and I allowed that to happen there is no way in hell I would let the student pick up the bill. I would be paying.

OTOH If I were doing a flight review in a privately owned retract and the owner just out of nowhere yanked the gear up I would not feel personally responsible for his deductible.

If a private owner bought a retract, was an experienced pilot, and I were providing his/her "checkout" training and that happened I would be pretty conflicted as to who would pay. Espesially since the first thing I always drive home is not to touch the gear or flap switch while the aircraft is in motion (on the ground) and not without positively identifying it visually and verbally.
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Jimmy cooper said:
Where I flew in the 80s there would have been no question. The engine would have been torn down.
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When run by my A&P at the time, he suggested more frequent oil changes for a while, looking for metal.

It may have been bad advice, but there you have it and there were no apparent ill effects.

BTW, we had both heard something (at Opa Locka West), but were unsure whether it was a prop strike or an acoustic phenomena. We flew back to Opa Locka, shut down and found we had a "Q-tip" prop! Oops! :rolleyes2:
 
I am loath to do T&Gs in complex airplanes. I do NOT do them in Beechcraft. I have had more than one Bonanza pilot reach for the gear instead of thr flaps.
 
Some insurance companies insist on the engine teardown. They'll pay for it. It's far cheaper than a catastrophic failure later on.

Dan
 
Just last weekend I went to pick up my new to me Saratoga II TC. I had to get check out by CFI prior to taking. I have a whopping 10 hours retract now but I would not do touch and goes and won't let myself do anything until clear of the runway. The instructor took it in stride when I told him I wished to taxi it back. I did make sure I tested the gear warning when we were doing our stalls so I would recognize the sound.

The F33 controls were quite concerning with their placement when I considered them also.

Darn gear up just scares the bejesus out of me! Sorry to hear it happened.
 
I did my complex checkout in a Beech. Cardinal rule - don't clean up the flaps until you're off the runway and have time to think about it.
 
Fearless Tower said:
1984 was the year they made the switch. The change only affected 58 models and model 36 Bo's. The 55's kept the old style until production was complete.
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Thank you.
The NTSB did a pretty extensive study on the non-standard layout of Beech airplanes because of the excessively high rate of inadvertant gear retractions.
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I think that pretty well proves the point -- unless you have someone else in the cockpit to do it, clear the runway and stop before you start fiddling with that stuff.
 
rbridges said:
good point. I forgot the cherokees have the flap lever b/t the seats.
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...and (for those unfamiliar) the older Mooney's have a gear lever between the seats.

Cherokee Arrow: Flap J-bar between seats, electric gear switch on panel.
Older Mooney: Gear J-bar between seats, electric flap switch on panel.

Y'all be careful, now, hear?
 
Unregistered said:
I was the one that pulled the gear but the aviation atty I spoke to said it's an interesting question who is PIC and then who is responsible for a student's mistake.
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Before you go top far with that argument, make sure your attorney reads Administrator v. Strobel. In particular...
Despite respondent's status as flight instructor and pilot in command, we will not impose strict liability on him for all of his student's mistakes. Although flight instructors are expected to "do all things possible for the safety of the flight," they are not held strictly liable for its safe outcome.
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If you read further in that case, you'll see that if the trainee does something so unexpected so fast that the instructor cannot react in time to prevent the adverse consequence, the FAA cannot hold the instructor responsible for what the trainee did. Your attorney would have to show that what you did was reasonably foreseeable and preventable by the instructor, and whether that is true or not is a matter for the court based on whatever evidence you might present. All things considered, I wouldn't count on it working.
 
MSPAviator said:
The flap lever is shaped like a little wing. The gear lever is shaped like a little wheel.
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Doesn't stop them from being confused, just makes it harder to do, although the accident history suggests it isn't hard enough to prevent this mistake if you start grabbing things in a hurry.
 
Ron Levy said:
Is that an FAA AD or a TCM SB? In the case of the Lycomings, it's an FAA AD, so it's regulatory. I'm curious about that for the Continental engines.
Click to expand...

For both it's just SB (or manufacturer recommendation).

The Lycoming AD isn't a full engine teardown, just a certain gear in the accessory drive.
 
Ron Levy said:
FWIW, when I'm giving training in a retractable gear aircraft and we're going to do T&G's, I tell them that I will handle the flaps (both wing and cowl) on the roll so they can focus on controlling the aircraft. Since nobody does T&G's as an operational practice, only for training, and you're not going to touch the flaps until safely airborne on a balked landing, I don't see that as negative training.

BTW, a few years back when David Fletcher was still operating a flight school at HOU, one of his instructors violated a school rule against T&G's in retractables by having a trainee do a T&G in one of the school's Cougars. The result was much the same as the OP's. The instructor was immediately fired for violating that rule (IIRC, his final paycheck went to cover the deductible) but the trainee was merely retrained.

One last point -- if the FAA hears about the OP's event, the instructor is almost certainly going to get a 709 ride.
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Yep, as a student in training, the student will see no ramifications, the CFI OTOH has a 709 coming.

One instructor I had early on wouldn't do T&Gs, on a long runway we'd do stop and gos. His thinking was "You take the two most hazardous phases of flight and put them back to back in a learning environment while still moving at speed. What part of that does not spell out something that reads like an accident waiting to happen?" Always seemed to make sense to me.
 
flyingron said:
For both it's just SB (or manufacturer recommendation).

The Lycoming AD isn't a full engine teardown, just a certain gear in the accessory drive.
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That's what they say in the AD, but then they add this little paragraph:

(j) The preceding definitions include situations where an aircraft is stationary and the landing
gear collapses causing one or more blades to be substantially bent, or where a hanger door (or other
object) strikes the propeller blade. These cases should be handled as sudden stoppages because of
potentially severe side loading on the crankshaft flange, front bearing, and seal.

Dan
 
Ron Levy said:
Since nobody does T&G's as an operational practice,
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Except in places where they want to know how soft a surface is before landing on soft surfaces. Drag the wheels without putting all the weight down. It gives you a pretty good idea. Normally, but not always, done with fixed gear A/C though.

I do agree that having the instructor do flaps if doing a T&G is good practice.

A side note, at what point in the landing are you committed to the landing? We train for go arounds, but how does one determine that they can't go around and are committed to landing?
 
Dan Thomas said:
That's what they say in the AD, but then they add this little paragraph:

(j) The preceding definitions include situations where an aircraft is stationary and the landing
gear collapses causing one or more blades to be substantially bent, or where a hanger door (or other
object) strikes the propeller blade. These cases should be handled as sudden stoppages because of
potentially severe side loading on the crankshaft flange, front bearing, and seal.

Dan
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Yeah, but that portion of it you check with a dial indicator externally, no need to go into the engine if it dials out straight.
 
bgdriveway said:
A side note, at what point in the landing are you committed to the landing?
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Depends on the runway, airport environment, and aircraft. If I'm landing my Tiger on a 15,000-foot runway in flat terrain, I'm never committed to the landing -- if the Hovitos Indians appear with their spears and poison dart blowguns just as I stop, I can still turn it into a stop-and-go. OTOH, at the old Hazard KY airport (long gone), other than in a helicopter, you were committed to land about the time you turned base-to-final, since after that there was nowhere to go left or right (terrain), and the ridge at the north end was too high to climb over if you tried to go around.

We train for go arounds, but how does one determine that they can't go around and are committed to landing?
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One studies the particular airport environment, considers the capabilities of one's aircraft, and figures it out from there.
 
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