Pulled gear up on touchdown, bad result

Henning said:
Yeah, but that portion of it you check with a dial indicator externally, no need to go into the engine if it dials out straight.
Click to expand...

Nope. I had a crank break in flight once. It had failed at a place common to those having had propstrikes: way near the aft end of the crankshaft. The flange had dialled just fine before it broke.

Propstrikes generate a variety of non-intuitive forces in a crankshaft. There are ringing vibrations that can start cracks. The aft part of the crank wants to keep turning and can twist the middle part. Counterweights do serious and nasty things. The accessories and their gearing all has momentum, too, leading to the sort of damage in the back end that the Lycoming AD identifies. The rods and pistons experience huge decelerational forces. When the prop hits the ground it tries to lift, very violently, the whole front end of the engine. That cracks crankcases or distorts the bearing saddles. A propstrike teardown is to enable NDI on just about everything in that engine.

Dan
 
MSPAviator said:
The flap lever is shaped like a little wing. The gear lever is shaped like a little wheel.
Click to expand...

Not in all airplanes. In the '73 A36 I'm living in lately the flap switch looks just like any other electrical switch.

The owner (my student) took ownership at 64 hours total time. The insurance company required 25 in type, with at least 10 instrument, then five solo hours before carrying passengers. They also specifically prohibited touch & goes during training.
 
LDJones said:
The owner (my student) took ownership at 64 hours total time. The insurance company required 25 in type, with at least 10 instrument, then five solo hours before carrying passengers. They also specifically prohibited touch & goes during training.
Click to expand...
Bet that helps keep hull damage insurance rates down.
 
LDJones said:
They also specifically prohibited touch & goes during training.
Click to expand...

This is one of the very few insurance restrictions I'm OK with. I'm not a fan of T&Gs on fixed-gear planes, since I believe they do not adequately represent either landing or takeoff; but T&Gs in a retract is just asking for a gear-up.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, but that portion of it you check with a dial indicator externally, no need to go into the engine if it dials out straight.
Click to expand...

This is bad advice. If the propeller has to be removed to be repaired the engine should come down. A prop strike that stops the engine is a tremendous shock to all parts of the engine. In addition your logs will have to show the prop repair or replacement unless your dishonest. Trouble would occur when you go to sell. The dial indicator check in this situation is false security. Doing it hafazzed is dangerous in aviation.
 
Pilot was not qualified to be PIC, recieving training for complex aircraft.
It's all on the CFI, the pilot should not be paying the deductible.
Nice that it's only $1500. Where I rent it's $5000.

I'm sure the FSDO will get involved. The "student" will be interviewed, but as it was his first flight in retract, not much will happen. But the instructor can expect a review and possibly a 709 ride.

Hopefully after the $1500, the insurance company does not come for more. It depends how the insurance and school policiesare written.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Nope. I had a crank break in flight once. It had failed at a place common to those having had propstrikes: way near the aft end of the crankshaft. The flange had dialled just fine before it broke.

Propstrikes generate a variety of non-intuitive forces in a crankshaft. There are ringing vibrations that can start cracks. The aft part of the crank wants to keep turning and can twist the middle part. Counterweights do serious and nasty things. The accessories and their gearing all has momentum, too, leading to the sort of damage in the back end that the Lycoming AD identifies. The rods and pistons experience huge decelerational forces. When the prop hits the ground it tries to lift, very violently, the whole front end of the engine. That cracks crankcases or distorts the bearing saddles. A propstrike teardown is to enable NDI on just about everything in that engine.

Dan
Click to expand...

Yes, when running. I thought the point was without it running and the nose drops onto a blade and bends it.
 
Unregistered said:
This is bad advice. If the propeller has to be removed to be repaired the engine should come down. A prop strike that stops the engine is a tremendous shock to all parts of the engine. In addition your logs will have to show the prop repair or replacement unless your dishonest. Trouble would occur when you go to sell. The dial indicator check in this situation is false security. Doing it hafazzed is dangerous in aviation.
Click to expand...

I wasn't commenting on a prop strike that stops the engine, I was commenting on a not in motion prop with a gear collapse dropping on a blade.
 
BillTIZ said:
Pilot was not qualified to be PIC, recieving training for complex aircraft.
It's all on the CFI, the pilot should not be paying the deductible.
Nice that it's only $1500. Where I rent it's $5000.

I'm sure the FSDO will get involved. The "student" will be interviewed, but as it was his first flight in retract, not much will happen. But the instructor can expect a review and possibly a 709 ride.

Hopefully after the $1500, the insurance company does not come for more. It depends how the insurance and school policiesare written.
Click to expand...

Doubtful that the owner's insurance will surrogate to the student since they weren't PIC, but they may come after the instructor if they aren't named insured. It depends who is paying the insurance bill.
 
Unregistered said:
I was with a CFI working on getting a check out for complex. First flight out yesterday, 3 good landings and then I apparently pulled the gear up as the nose was coming down. I guess I was thinking I was lifting the flaps up since we were doing a touch n go.

The CFI tried to put the gear back down but it was too late. We skidded on the nose, prop bent, no injuries.

I don't believe I need to report this and I don't have the FAR/AIM paragraph to cite since the CFI I was flying with looked it up. I paid $1500 towards whoever's insurance requires that for a deductible. I didn't take any pics and went back asking to do so but the FBO owner where I rented the plane didn't want me to do that until he speaks to the leaseback owner.

Is there anything else I'm supposed to do?
Click to expand...
And here people argue with me whenever I say tha touch and goes in a retract are an unecessary risk :rolleyes:. If I were you I would file an ASRS report. This is a safety of flight issue that other pilots could benefit reading about.
 
GCA319 said:
And here people argue with me whenever I say tha touch and goes in a retract are an unecessary risk :rolleyes:. If I were you I would file an ASRS report. This is a safety of flight issue that other pilots could benefit reading about.
Click to expand...
T&G's in any airplane are an unnecesary risk. I've maybe done 3 of em in 25 years if you don't count the ones for the purpose of seeing if the wheel tracks fill in with water.
 
JHW said:
T&G's in any airplane are an unnecesary risk. I've maybe done 3 of em in 25 years if you don't count the ones for the purpose of seeing if the wheel tracks fill in with water.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to skimming the surface of a body of water?
 
LDJones said:
Not in all airplanes. In the '73 A36 I'm living in lately the flap switch looks just like any other electrical switch.

The owner (my student) took ownership at 64 hours total time. The insurance company required 25 in type, with at least 10 instrument, then five solo hours before carrying passengers. They also specifically prohibited touch & goes during training.
Click to expand...

Even worse the older "piano key" style. I have had more than one student reach for the gear rather than the flaps during the after landing in this type of layout.
 
Blackhawk said:
Even worse the older "piano key" style. I have had more than one student reach for the gear rather than the flaps during the after landing in this type of layout.
Click to expand...

Yep, the earliest had identical piano keys, after a few years they stuck a wheel on the gear piano key but that didn't help much.

The Navion has quite a difference between the gear (giant 1 1/2" wheel that sticks out three inches out of the panel on a four inch throw. You have to both pull back plus reach under with your pinky with the secondary lock. People still get it wrong. The flap looks like a tiny flap over to the left (sticks out of the panel less).

My wife had a problem doing a BFR in a friend's Arrow. After breaking ground the instructor told her she could raise the gear. My wife is saying "as soon as I find it." The instructor pointed out the little wheel on the microswitch. "This little thing, how cute" my wife goes as she works it with two fingers.
 
JHW said:
T&G's in any airplane are an unnecesary risk. I've maybe done 3 of em in 25 years if you don't count the ones for the purpose of seeing if the wheel tracks fill in with water.
Click to expand...

I'm not going to disagree with you; however, touch and goes in most fixed gear trainers is a level of risk I'm willing to take while doing them in a retract is a level of risk I will not take.
 
GCA319 said:
I'm not going to disagree with you; however, touch and goes in most fixed gear trainers is a level of risk I'm willing to take while doing them in a retract is a level of risk I will not take.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat: Especially at a field where taxi-backs can add significantly to the time and cost. But in a retract, no.
 
Hmmm, I gues you didn't get signed off for the check out?
 
GCA319 said:
I'm not going to disagree with you; however, touch and goes in most fixed gear trainers is a level of risk I'm willing to take while doing them in a retract is a level of risk I will not take.
Click to expand...

Why does one minor issue make the difference? :dunno:
 
GCA319 said:
Gear is not a minor issue.
Click to expand...

Sure it is, people almost never die over a gear **** up. There's a dozen other things that can go wrong on a T&G that will kill you. Bending metal on a gear up is not a big issue, it hurts pride and rarely anything else. Losing control getting picked up in a gust while reconfiguring at almost flying speed has the potential to send you into a cartwheeling fireball.

The risk you are willing to accept and the risk you draw the line at are incongruous and illogical. Personally I'm 'meh' on the subject of T&Gs. Typically I don't do them because I don't do a lot of pattern work anymore, but occasionally I will on a BFR. I'll occasionally do them in my 310 or anything, but I don't make a habit out of it as I couldn't care less about doing laps in the pattern, which BTW, are the least effective way to learn how to land well regardless of which plane you're in.
 
Henning said:
Sure it is, people almost never die over a gear **** up. There's a dozen other things that can go wrong on a T&G that will kill you. Bending metal on a gear up is not a big issue, it hurts pride and rarely anything else. Losing control getting picked up in a gust while reconfiguring at almost flying speed has the potential to send you into a cartwheeling fireball.

The risk you are willing to accept and the risk you draw the line at are incongruous and illogical. Personally I'm 'meh' on the subject of T&Gs. Typically I don't do them because I don't do a lot of pattern work anymore, but occasionally I will on a BFR. I'll occasionally do them in my 310 or anything, but I don't make a habit out of it as I couldn't care less about doing laps in the pattern, which BTW, are the least effective way to learn how to land well regardless of which plane you're in.
Click to expand...

What do you think is a more effective way to learn to land well?
 
Also gear isn't the only place I draw a line at. I typically don't do touch and goes in anything beyond the standard trainers. That includes some high performance airplanes where inadequate right rudder upon adding power on the students part can send you off of the left side of the runway. Retract or not.
 
GCA319 said:
Also gear isn't the only place I draw a line at. I typically don't do touch and goes in anything beyond the standard trainers. That includes some high performance airplanes where inadequate right rudder upon adding power on the students part can send you off of the left side of the runway. Retract or not.
Click to expand...

I've done T&G's in most aircraft all the way up to Transport jets. I don't see what the big issue is here. :dunno:
 
GCA319 said:
What do you think is a more effective way to learn to land well?
Click to expand...
First take a flight and find your true Vso speed for your actual flying condition. To do this go up and do an approach to landing stall, a.k.a. Power off stall, with the plane full dirty, you, an instructor, and half fuel (later do this solo to find Vso at that weight). Note that speed, open the POH/AFM/Owners Manual to to the CAS-IAS conversion table and enter the IAS side to find the corresponding CAS. Now multiply that by 1.2, 1.3,&1.5, go back to the table on the CAS side and find the corresponding IAS.


Do some full length wheelie passes down the runway to burn in the sight picture that you are transitioning to and give a feeling for 'flying the plane after touch down', (when I'm checking myself out in a single seat plane, I do this first) this is the important part of training that the Tailwheel guys say the Trigear guys don't have, and in general, it's true.

Next spend a solid hour doing slow flight, and I mean SLOW at least half the time the stall warning should be active and your speed shouldn't exceed 1.5Vso except at the beginning when you find how many flicks of the trim it takes to slow down from cruise to 1.5 Vso, then how many to 1.3Vso or 1.2 Vso then how many to the stall horn, then note how much speed difference between the horn and stall.

Learn that at slow speed control is all about rudder and extremely slow speed you may need to use some opposite aileron to keep from stalling the inside wing. Play with the power and see what settings get what rates of descent or climb at all the low speed trim settings and note what power setting will get you level flight, especially at 1.5Vso (while clean and flaps 10/15) your downwind speed. Make note of the sound differences both from the engine and the wind noise on the airframe, note the feel of the elevator control at different speeds, this will tell you if your fast or slow before anything else if you are trimmed correctly and cognizant of what it should feel like.

You now have all the information you need to make a perfect approach and transition into a smooth landing without trying to figure it out in 10 second installments every 5 minutes while distracted by fear of the runway coming at you and breaking something.

Now you can put this all together into an approach and landing.
 
Clark1961 said:
Hazardous attitude: invunerability - can't happen to me
Click to expand...

So why do aircraft manufacturers such as Airbus include touch and go training in their manuals?

Example:

From Airbus FCOM

TRAINING TOUCH-AND-GO
Applicable to: ALL

With the nosewheel on ground, pitch trim automatically resets to zero. The pilot should select CONF
2 and add thrust. He must always move the thrust levers to TOGA to bring up the speed reference
system (SRS), and then reduce to a lower thrust (not less than CL), if he chooses. Takeoff may be
a little out of trim, which may affect the rotation slightly, but once the aircraft is off the ground, the
control law holds the “out of trim”, then retrims at 50 ft.


I've been a CFII now for 32 years and have used T&G training in everything from J-3's up to jets. Please explain how a well planned and executed maneuver that is a standard procedure is "Hazardous Attitude"?
 
RotorAndWing said:
I've done T&G's in most aircraft all the way up to Transport jets. I don't see what the big issue is here. :dunno:
Click to expand...
In those Transport jets, you have another pilot there to reconfigure the aircraft while the pilot flying maintains control of the aircraft. Doing that all yourself raises the stakes, especially for the typical nonprofessional pilot in his/her initial complex aircraft training.
 
Last edited:
RotorAndWing said:
From the FAA Safety library.
Click to expand...
From that article:
In my opinion T&G discipline should dictate:
  • Touch and go practice only after the student/pilot has mastered full stop landings and takeoffs.​
  • Prohibiting primary students from flying the touch-and-go while flying solo, at least until very near the checkride preparation stage.​
  • Teaching T&Gs, very carefully, emphasizing the technique as an emergency go-around maneuver.​
  • Prohibiting touch-and-go practice in all retractable gear airplanes, except for such emergency training.​
  • Proper use of the instructor as a cockpit resource with a pre-briefed division of duties, if conditions or the operating environment require T&G practice.​
  • Prohibiting T&G practice in tailwheel airplanes or any airplane at night—you can't log a T&G as a landing for currency under those conditions anyway.​
Comments? Questions? Tell us what you think at mastery.flight.training@cox.net.
Click to expand...
Sounds pretty good to me.
 
Last edited:
Clark1961 said:
Hazardous attitude: invunerability - can't happen to me
Click to expand...

I think that's unfair.

Flying itself is a calculated risk. Any rational pilot knows he or she can fall victim to an accident in virtually any phase of flight.

I have about 4,500 hours of instruction given, including countless touch and goes in all sorts of GA planes, including tailwheel, retractable, twins and Light Sports. I suppose there's some finite amount of additional risk doing touch and goes, but the transitional phase between the end of the landing and the beginning of the takeoff has never seemed fraught with a huge amount of drama, at least to me. I've certainly had many landings, and a few takeoffs "get my attention" - not so much the touch and go part itself.

But I respect anyone who weighs the risks differently and chooses not to do touch and goes. No right or wrong here.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
In those Transport jets, you have another pilot there to reconfigure the aircraft while the pilot flying maintains control of the aircraft. Doing that all yourself raises the stakes, especially for the typical nonprofessional pilot in his/her initial complex aircraft training.
Click to expand...

In a GA airplane you have an Instructor to reconfigure the aircraft while pilot flying maintains control of the aircraft.

Or do you just sit there and try to make the student do it all himself? :rolleyes2:
 
Henning said:
First take a flight and find your true Vso speed for your actual flying condition. To do this go up and do an approach to landing stall, a.k.a. Power off stall, with the plane full dirty, you, an instructor, and half fuel (later do this solo to find Vso at that weight). Note that speed, open the POH/AFM/Owners Manual to to the CAS-IAS conversion table and enter the IAS side to find the corresponding CAS. Now multiply that by 1.2, 1.3,&1.5, go back to the table on the CAS side and find the corresponding IAS.


Do some full length wheelie passes down the runway to burn in the sight picture that you are transitioning to and give a feeling for 'flying the plane after touch down', (when I'm checking myself out in a single seat plane, I do this first) this is the important part of training that the Tailwheel guys say the Trigear guys don't have, and in general, it's true.

Next spend a solid hour doing slow flight, and I mean SLOW at least half the time the stall warning should be active and your speed shouldn't exceed 1.5Vso except at the beginning when you find how many flicks of the trim it takes to slow down from cruise to 1.5 Vso, then how many to 1.3Vso or 1.2 Vso then how many to the stall horn, then note how much speed difference between the horn and stall.

Learn that at slow speed control is all about rudder and extremely slow speed you may need to use some opposite aileron to keep from stalling the inside wing. Play with the power and see what settings get what rates of descent or climb at all the low speed trim settings and note what power setting will get you level flight, especially at 1.5Vso (while clean and flaps 10/15) your downwind speed. Make note of the sound differences both from the engine and the wind noise on the airframe, note the feel of the elevator control at different speeds, this will tell you if your fast or slow before anything else if you are trimmed correctly and cognizant of what it should feel like.

You now have all the information you need to make a perfect approach and transition into a smooth landing without trying to figure it out in 10 second installments every 5 minutes while distracted by fear of the runway coming at you and breaking something.

Now you can put this all together into an approach and landing.
Click to expand...
I do a lot of that stuff with students prior to doing pattern work. Especially the wheelies down the runway and lots of slow flight. In fact, I do very little pattern work with primary students until all of the pre-solo maneuvers have been introduced and they can do them fairly well; however, pattern work is still an important part of the process.
 
Ron Levy said:
From that article:
Sounds pretty good to me.
Click to expand...

You missed this part

T&G practice also prepares the advanced student
and certificated pilot a technique for an emergency go
-around should he/she detect a runway hazard after touching down—
such as an animal or another airplane on the runway, or the inability to meet a "land and hold short" requirement.
Click to expand...


and this

Exercising cockpit management with your instructor. Assign him/her the tasks of
reconfiguring the airplane (flaps, all power except throttle, and trim), so you, the Pilot-Flying, need only add power and fly the airplane.
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
In those Transport jets, you have another pilot there to reconfigure the aircraft while the pilot flying maintains control of the aircraft. Doing that all yourself raises the stakes, especially for the typical nonprofessional pilot in his/her initial complex aircraft training.
Click to expand...
Yep. When I was doing my Commercial, my CFI elected to do touch and go's in the 177RG, but he reconfigured the flaps, cowl flaps, and trim for me while I focused on the airplane; however, when I did my CFI at a different school in a 172RG, touch and go's were against their policy, so we did full stop and taxi backs.
 
RotorAndWing said:
In a GA airplane you have an Instructor to reconfigure the aircraft while pilot flying maintains control of the aircraft.
Click to expand...
Agreed, and (just as the paper you quoted recommends and I said in post #6) that's how I do it when T&G's are necessary. But clearly that wasn't how the folks who started this thread were doing it.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
You missed this part



and this
Click to expand...
No, I didn't -- you missed post #6 back on page 1 of this thread.

And for an emergency go in a light plane, I teach power up and go, and get the flaps once airborne followed by the gear -- no grabbing anything but the power lever until airborne.
 
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