Proud owner of my first kidney stone...

[overdrive148]

Could be. Your doc should be able to tell from the CT what to expect. And if the CT only showed one - then that would be it.

That's, what, 2mm?

No idea, I don't have a ruler handy at the minute. Will go try to find one. They said the CT scan showed one small one and that it would pass on it's own most likely. And they didn't give me "flow max" like they were talking about when they first figured out it was a stone.

That be it.

Seems like a pretty big ordeal for such a little thing, eh?

How on earth could something so small cause so much pain? I barely caught it and I was using tupperware to be able to have the best chance of finding it. The urine it came with was dark brown. I thought I felt something farther up the line but this morning yielded nothing. Still feeling the very occasional pang in my right side somewhere.

 

[Matthew]

No idea, I don't have a ruler handy at the minute. Will go try to find one. They said the CT scan showed one small one and that it would pass on it's own most likely. And they didn't give me "flow max" like they were talking about when they first figured out it was a stone.


How on earth could something so small cause so much pain? I barely caught it and I was using tupperware to be able to have the best chance of finding it. The urine it came with was dark brown. I thought I felt something farther up the line but this morning yielded nothing. Still feeling the very occasional pang in my right side somewhere.

The route it takes is interesting. It forms in the kidney, then drains through a narrow tube into the bladder. That is where the majority of the pain comes from - you have that jagged edged thing being squeezed through a narrow tube. Once it gets into your bladder it just sloshes around until you pee it out. The discoloration you see is probably blood. Keep yourself hydrated and things should settle down.

From what you said - your CT showed a single small stone, and that's what you now have in front of you. Good deal. Next step will be for the doc to get a lab to analyze it for its chemical composition - probably calcium. FAA will want your report from the urologist to mention the type of stone, and what you are doing to prevent recurrence. That preventive measure will be different depending on the makeup of the stone.

--

You might want to consult with an AME or AOPA medical to make sure all the proper boxes are checked.

 

[overdrive148]

The route it takes is interesting. It forms in the kidney, then drains through a narrow tube into the bladder. That is where the majority of the pain comes from - you have that jagged edged thing being squeezed through a narrow tube. Once it gets into your bladder it just sloshes around until you pee it out. The discoloration you see is probably blood. Keep yourself hydrated and things should settle down.

Other 'fine particulates' were in that as well, which I figured was blood too. I didn't even notice the stone until after. Trying to grab the small things that were moving around and one turned out to be solid.

From what you said - your CT showed a single small stone, and that's what you now have in front of you. Good deal. Next step will be for the doc to get a lab to analyze it for its chemical composition - probably calcium. FAA will want your report from the urologist to mention the type of stone, and what you are doing to prevent recurrence. That preventive measure will be different depending on the makeup of the stone.

Fantastic. I will call and make an appointment with the urologist now and see what happens.

Also estimated the size of the stone using a method I came up with for building things to scale in voxel based video games.

Stone is about as big as Roosevelt's ear. Find a scale picture online, official diameter of a dime is 17.95mm, 212 pixels across. 1 px = 0.08467 mm

Ear at it's longest part = 36 px = 3.04mm.

 

[overdrive148]

Speaking of nasty...

A picture is worth 1,000 words. Looks more like 10mm.

We considered getting it bronzed and making an earring out of it but Karen had second thoughts.

Mine was a third of the size of yours - how did that monster not murder you?? I can't imagine what having that would be like in my system if this tiny thing was pushing me to the point of unconsciousness

 

[Matthew]

I don't know if you can get to it or not without an account, but here's what AOPA says:

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources...fication-and-Conditions/Urology/Kidney-Stones

 

[overdrive148]

I can see that page, thanks.

So what does this leave me at? I have 4 years left on my 3rd class since I'm under 40 and it was done last year...but now that I know I have/had a kidney stone, how does the FAA find out and do I have to tell them and when does Special Issuance come into play?

Not that I'm flying any time soon due to finances anyway, especially now. I'm going to have to work on being able to pay the co-pay much less the umpteen thousands of dollars that ER visit would have ended up being.

 

[AggieMike88]

During the initial eval, I said 7-8 pain scale. Massive mistake, right after I sat down I could have said 11 and it wouldn't have been enough.

And this is why the FAA is so concerned with kidney stones. The pain getting so bad it incapacitates you from performing flying tasks.

 

[Matthew]

I can see that page, thanks.

So what does this leave me at? I have 4 years left on my 3rd class since I'm under 40 and it was done last year...but now that I know I have/had a kidney stone, how does the FAA find out and do I have to tell them and when does Special Issuance come into play?

Not that I'm flying any time soon due to finances anyway, especially now. I'm going to have to work on being able to pay the co-pay much less the umpteen thousands of dollars that ER visit would have ended up being.

You'll need to get those answers from an AME or by calling AOPA medical.

I don't really know if you need to tell FAA anything until your next medical.

FAA finds out when you fill out your next medical and check the box that asks if you've had kidney stones - you'll have to answer "yes", and fill out the details. Then you give the AME all your reports. As long as you've done your homework, and all your reports look good, you can get your medical. I think the Special Issuance is required if your reports and imaging show more stones, but in my case I was good because my imaging showed clean. In following AME visits, you check the same box and in the comments you just say "previously reported, no change".

 

[Jim_CAK]

I was just about to say the same thing! Henning a goat herder! Who'd have guessed.

I think he prefers Goat Whisperer! :wink2:

Overdrive - good luck on the medical.

Edit - I missed Nick's post earlier. Nick - thank you for sharing for the rest of us.

 

[Zeldman]

I can see that page, thanks.

So what does this leave me at? I have 4 years left on my 3rd class since I'm under 40 and it was done last year...but now that I know I have/had a kidney stone, how does the FAA find out and do I have to tell them and when does Special Issuance come into play?

Not that I'm flying any time soon due to finances anyway, especially now. I'm going to have to work on being able to pay the co-pay much less the umpteen thousands of dollars that ER visit would have ended up being.

You did the self grounding, record everything from day 1 until the urologist claims you are stone free, including when you stopped pain meds, and anything else related to the stone treatment. Speaking of, are you still on pain medication? The hydro-codone upsets my stomach something awful. I think the FAA medical folks want you off the pain meds for 7 possibly 10 days before taking flight again.

For your next medical you will probably need a report from the urologist stating that the stone has passed, that you have no history of a current retained stone and what is being done to prevent another. Make three copies of that report. Keep one for your records. Keep a copy of everything for your records. You have had your prostrate checked haven't you...??

I would suggest checking with your AME and see what he/she would like for you to do before your next medical. Might ask that since your next medical isn't due for more than 3 years if you even have to report it. I will guess yes but a Dr report showing three years of being stone free won't hurt anything.

Good luck, were all counting on you.

 

[JOhnH]

Good luck, were all counting on you.

 

[Matthew]

You just made a point that I didn't think of. You need to report all visits to medical professionals within the last three years, but the OP won't see the AME for 4.

But....you'll still need to report that you have had a kidney stone, I forget which question 18 letter it is. Because it hasn't been reported before, FAA will know it's new and want to see the reports. To get those reports you have to see the urologist for a follow up and will have to report that visit.

 

[AggieMike88]

You just made a point that I didn't think of. You need to report all visits to medical professionals within the last three years, but the OP won't see the AME for 4.

But....you'll still need to report that you have had a kidney stone, I forget which question 18 letter it is. (it's question 18j -- AM88) Because it hasn't been reported before, FAA will know it's new and want to see the reports. To get those reports you have to see the urologist for a follow up and will have to report that visit.

If it helps, Overdrive, when you do fill the 8500-8 form on MedXpress, you don't need to list the same doctor over and over again if you are visiting for the same reason. Just do something like

Dr. Uri Ologyst, 123 Medical Plaza, Mytown, 957263 -- July 15, first visit after passing kidney stone. Initial evaluation including KUB radiographs; July 22, follow up visit. Reviewed radio graphs, discussed ongooing monitorig. Oct 2015, another poke and prod session, doc happy with results. Feb 2016, Doc did another radiograph and said stone free, wrote a status letter.​

This will save time from having to enter in name, address, phone, etc again and again and again and again and again.

 

[JeffDG]

What is the insurance code for a "poke and prod session"?

 

[Zeldman]

What is the insurance code for a "poke and prod session"?

Calling Dr Dover, Dr Ben Dover.....

 

[kayoh190]

This thread is like something out of my worst friggin' nightmare. If nothing else it lit a fire under my ass to drink more water!

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

This thread is like something out of my worst friggin' nightmare. If nothing else it lit a fire under my ass to drink more water!

Yeah, I started drinking a lot more water after reading this too.
This sounds horrific.

 

[overdrive148]

You did the self grounding, record everything from day 1 until the urologist claims you are stone free, including when you stopped pain meds, and anything else related to the stone treatment. Speaking of, are you still on pain medication? The hydro-codone upsets my stomach something awful. I think the FAA medical folks want you off the pain meds for 7 possibly 10 days before taking flight again.

The hydrocodone definitely upsets mine. Although throwing up from the pain in the ER was awesome, it stopped the pain in my abdomen for a few seconds, and then came roaring back. Yesterday I was throwing up repeatedly and it was often enough that I just had the "really? this is what's happening" to my GF at the time. The anti-nausea stuff they gave me dissolves on the tongue, but it was most of the $90 bucks before insurance cost. GF grabbed me some pepto-bismol-esque tablets and it seemed to help.

For your next medical you will probably need a report from the urologist stating that the stone has passed, that you have no history of a current retained stone and what is being done to prevent another. Make three copies of that report. Keep one for your records. Keep a copy of everything for your records. You have had your prostrate checked haven't you...??

No, I have not.

I would suggest checking with your AME and see what he/she would like for you to do before your next medical. Might ask that since your next medical isn't due for more than 3 years if you even have to report it. I will guess yes but a Dr report showing three years of being stone free won't hurt anything.

You just made a point that I didn't think of. You need to report all visits to medical professionals within the last three years, but the OP won't see the AME for 4.

But....you'll still need to report that you have had a kidney stone, I forget which question 18 letter it is. Because it hasn't been reported before, FAA will know it's new and want to see the reports. To get those reports you have to see the urologist for a follow up and will have to report that visit.

I think that this part gets me into Bruce territory, being what it is and how bad the pain was and what i'm going to try to do to prevent it in normal life instead of just my aviation life with the FAA.

If it helps, Overdrive, when you do fill the 8500-8 form on MedXpress, you don't need to list the same doctor over and over again if you are visiting for the same reason. Just do something like

Dr. Uri Ologyst, 123 Medical Plaza, Mytown, 957263 -- July 15, first visit after passing kidney stone. Initial evaluation including KUB radiographs; July 22, follow up visit. Reviewed radio graphs, discussed ongooing monitorig. Oct 2015, another poke and prod session, doc happy with results. Feb 2016, Doc did another radiograph and said stone free, wrote a status letter.​

This will save time from having to enter in name, address, phone, etc again and again and again and again and again.

Good advice, thank you sir

Calling Dr Dover, Dr Ben Dover.....

What is the insurance code for a "poke and prod session"?

This thread is like something out of my worst friggin' nightmare. If nothing else it lit a fire under my ass to drink more water!

Yeah, I started drinking a lot more water after reading this too.
This sounds horrific.

Like, going into threads online to find out if the residual pain I'm having in the lower right abdomen is normal or not yields people saying "worst pain ever" and before, I'd hear that and say yeah right.

No. Seriously. I was sitting there in the waiting room of the ER and thinking to myself that if I didn't get something for pain in the next 5 minutes that the pain was going to overtake me and I would pass out. I started out with that faint pain and was like hmm, the car ride I was confident I could handle it until I was taken in, and in the waiting room I became seriously afraid of my complete inability to do anything about it.

No body positions helped, breathing barely helped, laying down on the bed inside almost murdered me. The panic started to set in after they hit me with morphine and they said "it'll be all better now" and it wasn't. Again after the 2nd shot.

My head would roll back on my shoulder against the wall or bed and I'd have to fight to pick it back up again. It was like running from a train on the tracks, you could only stay ahead for so long before you got completely run over. At least in my case.

At one point I said "holy ballsacks" aloud by accident with everyone in the room, and then couldn't even laugh at it through the pain.

 

[JOhnH]

No body positions helped, breathing barely helped, laying down on the bed inside almost murdered me. The panic started to set in after they hit me with morphine and they said "it'll be all better now" and it wasn't. Again after the 2nd shot.

My head would roll back on my shoulder against the wall or bed and I'd have to fight to pick it back up again. It was like running from a train on the tracks, you could only stay ahead for so long before you got completely run over. At least in my case.

At one point I said "holy ballsacks" aloud by accident with everyone in the room, and then couldn't even laugh at it through the pain.

Ok. I'm going to go have a couple of glasses of water now.
Do old people get kidney stones if they never had one before?

 

[Matthew]

Like, going into threads online to find out if the residual pain I'm having in the lower right abdomen is normal or not yields people saying "worst pain ever" and before, I'd hear that and say yeah right.

No. Seriously. I was sitting there in the waiting room of the ER and thinking to myself that if I didn't get something for pain in the next 5 minutes that the pain was going to overtake me and I would pass out. I started out with that faint pain and was like hmm, the car ride I was confident I could handle it until I was taken in, and in the waiting room I became seriously afraid of my complete inability to do anything about it.

No body positions helped, breathing barely helped, laying down on the bed inside almost murdered me. The panic started to set in after they hit me with morphine and they said "it'll be all better now" and it wasn't. Again after the 2nd shot.

My head would roll back on my shoulder against the wall or bed and I'd have to fight to pick it back up again. It was like running from a train on the tracks, you could only stay ahead for so long before you got completely run over. At least in my case.

At one point I said "holy ballsacks" aloud by accident with everyone in the room, and then couldn't even laugh at it through the pain.

The ER nurse told me they knew which patients had KS becsuse the sheets and covers would be all over the place from them trying to get comfortable.

Once they gave me some anti nausea stuff snd the morphine I was able to function again - sort of.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Ok. I'm going to go have a couple of glasses of water now.
Do old people get kidney stones if they never had one before?

I was going to ask this too.
But I am too busy drinking water to type much.

Oh God I gotta pee!

 

[Matthew]

I don't know if you are ever to old for your first time. You never forget your first time.

 

[overdrive148]

 

[Stingray Don]

Ok. I'm going to go have a couple of glasses of water now.
Do old people get kidney stones if they never had one before?

My dad had his first kidney stone in his early 70s, so yes you can get them at any age. I felt so bad for him because I knew what he was going through. He just kept groaning aloud in pain and this is the most stoic man I have ever met.

How does that water taste now?

 

[JOhnH]

My dad had his first kidney stone in his early 70s, so yes you can get them at any age. I felt so bad for him because I knew what he was going through. He just kept groaning aloud in pain and this is the most stoic man I have ever met.

How does that water taste now?

I love water!
Water is my favorite drink.
I think I'll have another.
Right after I pee.

 

[Stingray Don]

I love water!
Water is my favorite drink.
I think I'll have another.
Right after I pee.

 

[RJM62]

Yeah, I started drinking a lot more water after reading this too.
This sounds horrific.

I used to drink a couple of gallons of green tea every day. Then Dr. Bruce mentioned that it can increase the risk of kidney stones. That was enough to break me of that habit.

Rich

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I used to drink a couple of gallons of green tea every day. Then Dr. Bruce mentioned that it can increase the risk of kidney stones. That was enough to break me of that habit.

Rich

Sounds like there is no escape.
If I get one, I am having my wiener removed.

 

[Ghery]

Probably SI for a year, year and a half, then back to regular medical. If there are no more stones than maybe not even an SI.

I passed a stone in 2010. I'm still on an SI. Clean KUB every year. The urologist just copies the letter from the previous year. Maybe some day they'll quit the SI business like they did the one for my prostate cancer, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[overdrive148]

Sounds like there is no escape.
If I get one, I am having my wiener removed.

The worst pain was when it left my kidney. The stone taking the exit off the highway to hell was actually surprisingly unnoticeable, the tupperware sample was dark and brown and I could barely tell there was a stone in there until I looked hard. Otherwise I wouldn't have noticed it at all. Then again, I was on painkillers, but by far the worst pain was the very beginning from the kidney, which is the problem considering you can't really know it's coming.

 

[SkyHog]

Passing a kidney stone through your dickhole doesn't hurt, so if your concern is man pain, worry not.

That said, it is very, very painful going from the kidney to the bladder. Hurts like a *****.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

How can that possibly not hurt delicate man flower?
The thing the picture there with the ruler would destroy
My junk on its way out

 

[Henning]

How can that possibly not hurt delicate man flower?
The thing the picture there with the ruler would destroy
My junk on its way out

I had a friend, she worked in one of the old peep shows with the glass and curtain. The stories she had. Apparently a standard pencil fits just fine.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I had a friend, she worked in one of the old peep shows with the glass and curtain. The stories she had. Apparently a standard pencil fits just fine.

Good God

Humans are weird <-- and that's coming from me...

 

[overdrive148]

Okay, appointment is this afternoon. Let's see if I have this straight. Docs in the ER said CT scan showed no stones but in the event that it's not the case...

If no stones showing on the CT scan

• Another scan (KUB or CT depending) required before next medical (more than 90 days apart) showing that there are no more stones.
• Urologist report stating composition of stone, preventative measures taken, and a statement of 'no more stones, sir' to the FAA.
• Check box 18J on next medical and provide urologist report.

If more stones showing on the CT scan

• Another scan (KUB or CT depending) required before next medical (more than 90 days apart) showing that there is no movement/stone is retained/no danger of passing.
• Urologist report stating composition of stone, preventative measures taken, and a statement of 'stones are stable, sir' to the FAA.
• Check box 18J on next medical and provide urologist report.

All good?

 

[overdrive148]

Okay, appointment is this afternoon. Let's see if I have this straight. Docs in the ER said CT scan showed no more stones but in the event that it's not the case...

If no more stones showing on the CT scan

• Another scan (KUB or CT depending) required before next medical showing that there are no more stones.
• Urologist report stating composition of stone, preventative measures taken, and a statement of 'no more stones, sir' to the FAA.
• Check box 18J on next medical and provide urologist report.

If more stones showing on the CT scan

• Another scan (KUB or CT depending) required before next medical showing that there is no movement/stone is retained/no danger of passing.
• Urologist report stating composition of stone, preventative measures taken, and a statement of 'stones are stable, sir' to the FAA.
• Check box 18J on next medical and provide urologist report.

All good?

The AOPA article adds:

Date of Diagnosis (date)
Metabolic Evaluation (chemical composition of stone)
Method of Treatment (passed normally)
Current Status (stone free?)
Prognosis for Recurrence (likelihood of more/preventative measures taken)

A report of recent (within 90 days of medical) CT/Ultrasound/KUB/Sonogram/IVP showing clear of stones.

 

[Matthew]

Okay, appointment is this afternoon. Let's see if I have this straight. Docs in the ER said CT scan showed no stones but in the event that it's not the case...

If no stones showing on the CT scan

• Another scan (KUB or CT depending) required before next medical (more than 90 days apart) showing that there are no more stones.
• Urologist report stating composition of stone, preventative measures taken, and a statement of 'no more stones, sir' to the FAA.
• Check box 18J on next medical and provide urologist report.

If more stones showing on the CT scan

• Another scan (KUB or CT depending) required before next medical (more than 90 days apart) showing that there is no movement/stone is retained/no danger of passing.
• Urologist report stating composition of stone, preventative measures taken, and a statement of 'stones are stable, sir' to the FAA.
• Check box 18J on next medical and provide urologist report.

All good?

You do know there are no AMEs here to answer that?

I'm not sure about the > 90 days apart thing you are referring to. I think FAA wants reports and imaging to be done within 90 days of your AME visit - they don't want you turning in a report that's years old, they want something fresh. (Edit: I see you did reference that on your next post.)

 

[overdrive148]

Ah, I was just summing up the thread advice. Just met the urologist who is also a pilot and has had flight training at Shawnee. Said he's very familiar with what the FAA needs from him and will help me through the process.

 

[Matthew]

Ah, I was just summing up the thread advice. Just met the urologist who is also a pilot and has had flight training at Shawnee. Said he's very familiar with what the FAA needs from him and will help me through the process.

Good deal. It's always nice to have a doc who knows the system.

 

[overdrive148]

I kind of jumped into explaining the relation to the FAA and the possible implications for my medical without thinking about whether he knew about it already and when I finished he said that I don't need a second ct scan. Will add more in 3 weeks I suppose.