Properly Logging Sim Time

Ron Levy said:
Please point out where the FAA defines the term "simulator time" or uses that term in any regulation relevant to pilots.
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Why?? You can create any category you want in your logbook.

I don't think I understand your question.
 
Kritchlow said:
Then we agree.

Sometimes I swear you look for controversy by parsing words and phrases. I think you are smart enough to know exactly what I meant. The semantics can just drive people away from this forum.
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The semantics are critical if you're talking about compliance with the FAA's regulations. Toss around words without regard for their definitions or lack thereof, and we wind up with people who really don't know how to comply with those regulations. One example is the eternal question of logging PIC time versus acting as PIC -- in which one can be PIC without being able to log PIC time, or be able to log PIC time without being the PIC. Another is the question of being "rated", especially as it applies to logging PIC time. One more is the question of logging approaches for 61.57(c) currency vis a vis actual instrument conditions versus instrument meteorological conditions. Instructors who are sloppy about teaching these to their students only make things worse, and I refuse to accede to such terminological sloppiness.
 
Ron Levy said:
:sigh: I give up. Believe what you want. Just please don't teach it to anyone that way.
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I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here.

My point is do NOT include sim time in the final column of your logbook, whether you call it total time, pilot time, duration, or whatever.
DO include it as simulator time, and count as much as you can toward any rating as possible.

Not sure what else to say other than sim time is NOT flight time.
 
Kritchlow said:
My point is do NOT include sim time in the final column of your logbook, whether you call it total time, pilot time, duration, or whatever.
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Then your advice is not consistent with the FAA's regulations on point. Time in flight simulation devices does indeed count as "pilot time", and you most certainly may include training received or given in a flight simulation device in your total pilot time.

DO include it as simulator time, and count as much as you can toward any rating as possible.
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You can do that if you want, but the FAA has no requirement for, or regulations referring to, or definition of the term "simulator time", so it would not be appropriate for FAA certificate/rating/recent experience purposes. In particular, given the different credits allowed for time in the different types of flight simulation devices, it's important that you log those different devices in separate columns, not just all lumped together in one "simulator time" column.

Not sure what else to say other than sim time is NOT flight time.
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I agree. However, time receiving training or giving training in a flight simulation device is "pilot time" for FAA purposes. Since there are significant differences between "flight time" and "pilot time", it would be most unwise to simply head a column "total time" without making clear whether it was total pilot time or total flight time.
 
Ron Levy said:
Then your advice is not consistent with the FAA's regulations on point. Time in flight simulation devices does indeed count as "pilot time", and you most certainly may include training received or given in a flight simulation device in your total pilot time.

You can do that if you want, but the FAA has no requirement for, or regulations referring to, or definition of the term "simulator time", so it would not be appropriate for FAA certificate/rating/recent experience purposes. In particular, given the different credits allowed for time in the different types of flight simulation devices, it's important that you log those different devices in separate columns, not just all lumped together in one "simulator time" column.

I agree. However, time receiving training or giving training in a flight simulation device is "pilot time" for FAA purposes. Since there are significant differences between "flight time" and "pilot time", it would be most unwise to simply head a column "total time" without making clear whether it was total pilot time or total flight time.
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Whatever... Never actually saw "pilot time" as the final column, but that's a small point. Actually I have never seen it in any column, but I'm more than certain you can prove me wrong. That said, what are you piloting? A computerized machine?? Whatever.
The reason I say to make a simulator column is simply to show compliance with any rating in which you used that time to fulfill the requirements.
 
Since Ron's point is that there is no FAA recognition of the term "simulator", why not name the columns something that IS recognized by the FAA?

Makes sense to me. Proper documentation makes dealing with the Feds a lot easier.
 
Well call me silly, but the simulators I have used are all FAA certified. So, how can there be no defined reference to simulators anywhere within the FAA??
 
Ron Levy said:
d. None of the above. The term "Total Time" does not exist in the FAA's regulatory parlance.
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Really? :rolleyes:



FAA Order 8900.1

4)Pilots with 1,500 Hours Total Time.
In accordance with § 61.160(f), a person who has 1,500 hours total time as a pilot is eligible to apply for a restricted privileges ATP certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an ATP certificate concurrently with an airplane type rating with the following minimum qualifications........


61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:


FAA Order 8900.2

d. FAA Forms.
(1) FAA Form 8710-1 must be completed in ink or typewritten and signed by the applicant. The applicant must complete sections I, II, III, IV, and V. Section 1 must have Parts A–O completed in its entirety. If a flight test is administered, section II A(1) must indicate the aircraft used during the flight test and the “Total Time” in 2a. The aircraft listed must match the aircraft listed in the designated examiner’s report.



 
Kritchlow said:
Whatever... Never actually saw "pilot time" as the final column...
The reason I say to make a simulator column is simply to show compliance with any rating in which you used that time to fulfill the requirements.
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Nobody's arguing that you can't log instruction received in a simulator, but since the regs don't use the term "simulator time" (Ron's point), you can call it anything you want. If somebody came to me for an ATP ride, and his logbook had a column for "David's House of Pain" with entries that were obviously valid simulator training, that's entirely acceptable. If those entries were also entered under columns headed "Pilot time", "Total Time", or "Total", that just makes my job easier when validating a logbook. On the other hand, as you and Ron have said, I'd take issue with adding them in a column called anything to do with "flight" because the regs that I apply to a logbook use that term in a specific way that doesn't apply to simulator training.

The purpose of ANYTHING in a logbook, as far as the FAA is concerned, is to show compliance with aeronautical experience requirements of various regulations. If a regulatory term is used in a logbook, it should be used the same way that the reg does. Other, non-regulatory, terms simply need to be applied consistently and clearly to make the job of the person interpreting the logbook easier.
 
§61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:

(1) General—

(i) Date.

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device, the location where the lesson occurred.

(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device, as appropriate.

(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109 of this chapter.

(2) Type of pilot experience or training—

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.

(v) Training received in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device from an authorized instructor.

(3) Conditions of flight—

(i) Day or night.

(ii) Actual instrument.

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device.

(iv) Use of night vision goggles in an aircraft in flight, in a flight simulator, or in a flight training device.

(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
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The reg on pilot logbooks mentions "flight simulator" quite a few times. Under "General" it mentions that you need to log "total flight time or lesson time" if you are using it to meet the requirements of (a). If your lesson is not in flight it must have been in a simulator. :dunno:
 
Kudos to Rotor and Indigo.

Nice work!!!!
 
Kritchlow said:
Well call me silly, but the simulators I have used are all FAA certified. So, how can there be no defined reference to simulators anywhere within the FAA??
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Therein, exactly, lies the problem.

Ron has clearly used the full term "simulator time" in what he has said doesn't exist. While I defer to R&W's post that the term "simulator time" does exist within the FAA, I see no reference to the term "simulator time" in regulations, particularly with regard to logbooks or aeronautical experience.

On the other hand, when someone casually drops an entire word from the term, and "simulator time" (a logbook entry) is suddenly Used interchangeably with "simulator" (a mechanical, electronic, and/or hydraulic device used for training pilots) the waters get muddied, intent gets twisted, and misconceptions are perpetuated.
 
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Ron Levy said:
d. None of the above. The term "Total Time" does not exist in the FAA's regulatory parlance.

However, Total Pilot Time is the sum of Total Flight Time plus those Pilot Time elements which are not Flight Time, specifically time during which one:
See 14 CFR 61.1 for details.

If there is a column in your logbook labeled "Total Time", it's up to you to decide whether to use it for Total Flight Time, Total Pilot Time, or anything else you choose. However, for FAA purposes, you'd better be able to determine what you have in the way of Flight Time and/or Pilot Time if the FAA wants one or both of those numbers.
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Ron - in a roundabout way, I was agreeing with you. "Total Time" is undefined, so you can call it whatever you want. In my case, I use it as a total of all time I have logged so far, including sim time.

If I want to get "Total Flight Time" it is as easy as adding up ASEL and AMEL time.
 
I'm not sure why this is controversial. The FAA uses "total time" and "pilot time" on their own forms including the 8710 form which you use to apply for certificates and ratings. There are also blocks for sim time. That's not to say that you need to keep a record in what we think of as a physical or electronic logbook. These records could be in other forms.

0
 
RotorAndWing said:
It's a word semantics game, someone is trying to protect their "maven" status, on point.

fatuus esset aliud verbum flexuosa ludum

:rolleyes:
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I see they don't require you to total your total time in the first column so maybe that's what he's talking about. :D
 
RotorAndWing said:
Really? :rolleyes:



FAA Order 8900.1

4)Pilots with 1,500 Hours Total Time.
In accordance with § 61.160(f), a person who has 1,500 hours total time as a pilot is eligible to apply for a restricted privileges ATP certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an ATP certificate concurrently with an airplane type rating with the following minimum qualifications........


61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:


FAA Order 8900.2

d. FAA Forms.
(1) FAA Form 8710-1 must be completed in ink or typewritten and signed by the applicant. The applicant must complete sections I, II, III, IV, and V. Section 1 must have Parts A–O completed in its entirety. If a flight test is administered, section II A(1) must indicate the aircraft used during the flight test and the “Total Time” in 2a. The aircraft listed must match the aircraft listed in the designated examiner’s report.
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Well, if you cut off the rest of the phrase, fine. But even then, the first two say "total time as a pilot", and that means "pilot time" (which includes time in a flight simulation device), not "flight time" (which does not). The last one refers to time in an aircraft, which is by definition both flight time and pilot time, but also by definition excludes any time in a flight simulation device. But you will not repeat not find any regulation requiring a certain amount of "total time" without specifying flight or pilot, nor is there anything in any regulation defining "simulator time" or setting any requirement for "simulator time".
 
MauleSkinner said:
Therein, exactly, lies the problem.

Ron has clearly used the full term "simulator time" in what he has said doesn't exist. While I defer to R&W's post that the term "simulator time" does exist within the FAA, I see no reference to the term "simulator time" in regulations, particularly with regard to logbooks or aeronautical experience.

On the other hand, when someone casually drops an entire word from the term, and "simulator time" (a logbook entry) is suddenly Used interchangeably with "simulator" (a mechanical, electronic, and/or hydraulic device used for training pilots) the waters get muddied, intent gets twisted, and misconceptions are perpetuated.
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Not to mention that the rules on credit allowance for time in the various sorts of flight simulation devices varies with the type (FFS, FTD, AATD, or BATD). If you log it all as "simulator time", someone has to go back and determine what type of flight simulation device each one was, separate them out by type, and retotal them before giving credit.
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, if you cut off the rest of the phrase, fine. But even then, the first two say "total time as a pilot", and that means "pilot time" (which includes time in a flight simulation device), not "flight time" (which does not). The last one refers to time in an aircraft, which is by definition both flight time and pilot time, but also by definition excludes any time in a flight simulation device
But you will not repeat not find any regulation requiring a certain amount of "total time" without specifying flight or pilot, nor is there anything in any regulation defining "simulator time" or setting any requirement for "simulator time".
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390.4 in the sim and none of that I logged as "total time" , "pilot time" or "flight time." Future employers shouldn't put much weight in it either.

Having said that, if it's something that's needed to obtain an IFR rating, I see no problem in logging it as you wish.
 
Velocity173 said:
390.4 in the sim and none of that I logged as "total time" , "pilot time" or "flight time." Future employers shouldn't put much weight in it either.

Having said that, if it's something that's needed to obtain an IFR rating, I see no problem in logging it as you wish.
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I've lost count of the amount of time I've spent in sims during training, qualification, recurrent, etc. I never logged any of it as it really didn't matter.

For what did matter is logged in the training records.
 
So where does one find the definition of flight time and pilot time in the FARs ?
 
Thank you. I missed it when I looked before.

Funny thing. I didn't see a definition for simulator time while I was looking.
 
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