Properly Logging Sim Time

Bonchie

Bonchie

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Bonchie
Some say only log it as simulator. But isn't it possible to get simulator time and it not be simulated instrument? So wouldn't you need to also log it as simulated instrument time if you want it to count toward your IFR rating?

61.51 lists under "Logging instrument time" the use of a simulator or Flight Training Device.

So just when I think I've got it figured out, I see pilots on different forums swearing you should only log it as simulator time.

So which is it?
 
If it's an approved simulator, you can log simulator time and simulated instrument time.
 
Just don't log it as flight time.
 
If the visual display allows you to control the "aircrft" by reference to the "outside" references without reference to the flight instruments, then you cannot log it as simulated instrument time. However, assuming the instructor has the outside view adequately clouded over, it's all instrument time. In that case, you may have a minute or two on departure and approach to landing which technically aren't instrument time, but not enough to matter.
 
There are varying levels of simulators... I'm sure someone here will enlighten us which are approved for sim time.

To me, if it's not a full motion level C or preferably D, it's not a sim. But than again I'm probably old school and behind the times.
 
Kritchlow said:
There are varying levels of simulators... I'm sure someone here will enlighten us which are approved for sim time.

To me, if it's not a full motion level C or preferably D, it's not a sim. But than again I'm probably old school and behind the times.
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They are all "flight simulation devices", regardless of whether they are full flight simulators, flight training devices, or aviation training devices (basic or advanced). However, the term "sim" is generally applied equally to all as a shorthand for "flight simulation device", and they all can (within the limits of their letters of authorization) be used to log pilot time, training time and simulated instrument time (there being no FAA definition of, or requirement for, either "sim time" or "simulator time"). See the definitions in 14 CFR sections 61.1 and 1.1, the entirety of 14 CFR Part 60, and 14 CFR 61.51 for the details.
 
Ron Levy said:
They are all "flight simulation devices", regardless of whether they are full flight simulators, flight training devices, or aviation training devices (basic or advanced). However, the term "sim" is generally applied equally to all as a shorthand for "flight simulation device", and they all can (within the limits of their letters of authorization) be used to log pilot time, training time and simulated instrument time (there being no FAA definition of, or requirement for, either "sim time" or "simulator time").
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Okay... I admit I'm a novice on this topic. I am used to major class D full motion sims to get a type rating in.

Where is the line for logging sim time for the ir? Is a home based computer game legit?
Sorry for the basic questions... I did my ir/ATP so many years ago, this computer stuff wasn't out there yet.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay... I admit I'm a novice on this topic. I am used to major class D full motion sims to get a type rating in.
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...those being "full flight simulators".

Where is the line for logging sim time for the ir?
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It must be an FAA-certified flight simulation device, the bottom level of which is a Basic Aviation Training Device (BATD), and it must have this purpose listed in its Letter of Authorization from AFS-800. In addition, there are limits to how many hours may be applied towards the standard 40 hours of instrument time for the IR under Part 61, but generally FFS and FTD allow 20 while ATD's allow only 10 (see 14 CFR 61.65 for details). The FAA tried to increase the ATD allowance to 20 hours last year via the Direct Final Rule process, but one [expletive deleted] wrote a comment objecting, and that stopped the show. AFS-800 is now working on an estimated 2-year process to make that change via the standard NPRM/comment/FR process.

Is a home based computer game legit?
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No. Even some of those home computer flight games share their driving engines with approved systems, the complete system must be approved by the FAA. See 14 CFR Part 60 for the details on this process.

Sorry for the basic questions... I did my ir/ATP so many years ago, this computer stuff wasn't out there yet.
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If you're not working in the flight education field, it isn't at all surprising that you're not up with the rapidly changing situation regarding flight simulation devices, especially at the lower end.
 
Ron Levy said:
...those being "full flight simulators".

It must be an FAA-certified flight simulation device, the bottom level of which is a Basic Aviation Training Device (BATD), and it must have this purpose listed in its Letter of Authorization from AFS-800. In addition, there are limits to how many hours may be applied towards the standard 40 hours of instrument time for the IR under Part 61, but generally FFS and FTD allow 20 while ATD's allow only 10 (see 14 CFR 61.65 for details). The FAA tried to increase the ATD allowance to 20 hours last year via the Direct Final Rule process, but one [expletive deleted] wrote a comment objecting, and that stopped the show. AFS-800 is now working on an estimated 2-year process to make that change via the standard NPRM/comment/FR process.

No. Even some of those home computer flight games share their driving engines with approved systems, the complete system must be approved by the FAA. See 14 CFR Part 60 for the details on this process.

If you're not working in the flight education field, it isn't at all surprising that you're not up with the rapidly changing situation regarding flight simulation devices, especially at the lower end.
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Thank you, Ron... All questions answered.
 
kgruber said:
My instrument instructor, in 1969, said that I'd have to subtract sim time.
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From what? Sim time was legal back then, too, although the options were fewer and more expensive to buy (FTD's like the Frasca 141 then being the lowest level approved device).
 
This is a topic of endless debate. I just spent 70 hours in a Level D sim and came out of it with my ATP and a CL-65 type rating (Canadair Regional Jet). After much discussion I ended up putting none of it in my logbook. I created a separate digital logbook documenting the training (which my airline also has in my permanent records) and will just reference that should anyone ever be interested. But I'll just use my logged time in airplanes for reporting purposes.
 
Kritchlow said:
Don't log it under anything other than sim time. It is not total time.
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That depends on what your "total time" is. Sim time does not count for "Total Flight Time", but it does count for "Total Pilot Time".
Pilot time means that time in which a person--

(i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
Click to expand...
Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or (2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.
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So check the exact title at the top of that column.
 
LDJones said:
This is a topic of endless debate. I just spent 70 hours in a Level D sim and came out of it with my ATP and a CL-65 type rating (Canadair Regional Jet). After much discussion I ended up putting none of it in my logbook. I created a separate digital logbook documenting the training (which my airline also has in my permanent records) and will just reference that should anyone ever be interested. But I'll just use my logged time in airplanes for reporting purposes.
Click to expand...
You certainly could have logged it as simulator time and simulated instrument time but I guess it desn't really matter now.
 
Ron Levy said:
That depends on what your "total time" is. Sim time does not count for "Total Flight Time", but it does count for "Total Pilot Time".
So check the exact title at the top of that column.
Click to expand...

I am not even going to research your intricacies... It is general belief, that it has been sufficiently vetted, that sim time is not total time, or flight time. You can spin the words however you want, but that's the consensus.
 
LDJones said:
This is a topic of endless debate. I just spent 70 hours in a Level D sim and came out of it with my ATP and a CL-65 type rating (Canadair Regional Jet). After much discussion I ended up putting none of it in my logbook. I created a separate digital logbook documenting the training (which my airline also has in my permanent records) and will just reference that should anyone ever be interested. But I'll just use my logged time in airplanes for reporting purposes.
Click to expand...

Yup... Could have logged it as sim, but not in the total column at the end.
 
I log sim time as sim time but I don't log it as simulated instrument time. It doesn't matter for me either way since I maintain my currency through checkrides not hours or approaches, and I get an 8410 form saying that I passed. No one cares how much sim time or simulated instrument time I have.

In fact I had my recurrent checkride today.
 
Everskyward said:
I log sim time as sim time but I don't log it as simulated instrument time. It doesn't matter for me either way since I maintain my currency through checkrides not hours or approaches, and I get an 8410 form saying that I passed. No one cares how much sim time or simulated instrument time I have.

In fact I had my recurrent checkride today.
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Do you do an annual ride or every six months?
 
Everskyward said:
I log sim time as sim time but I don't log it as simulated instrument time. It doesn't matter for me either way since I maintain my currency through checkrides not hours or approaches, and I get an 8410 form saying that I passed. No one cares how much sim time or simulated instrument time I have.

In fact I had my recurrent checkride today.
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That's very nice of you to share, but not sure it addresses the OP's concern.
 
LDJones said:
Do you do an annual ride or every six months?
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I do a full recurrent (with ground school) annually and what is supposed to be just an instrument check at the six month point. However, the way it's set up, the actual checkrides cover the same things so there is really no difference between the two checkrides. Today was my six month instrument checkride, so no ground school.

Did LPV training for the first time since the airplane had WAAS installed at the last maintenance and it's now in our ops specs.
 
Everskyward said:
Did LPV training for the first time since the airplane had WAAS installed at the last maintenance and it's now in our ops specs.
Click to expand...

Woohoo! now yer twin cezzna is almost as capable as the 'kota...
 
Kritchlow said:
That's very nice of you to share, but not sure it addresses the OP's concern.
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I guess it would never occur to me to log both sim and simulated instrument because, to me, simulated instrument means with a hood, in an airplane. But obviously people have different opinions about that. Regardless, I would think simulator time would count toward the instrument rating, which is what the OP asked. I never really considered flying around with the visuals on VMC because you probably wouldn't do that during instrument training (except when taking off and landing).
 
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Everskyward said:
I guess it would never occur to me to log both sim and simulated instrument because, to me, simulated instrument means with a hood, in an airplane. But obviously people have different opinions about that. Regardless, I would think simulator time would count toward the instrument rating, which is what the OP asked. I never really considered flying around with the visuals on VMC because you probably wouldn't do that during instrument training (except when taking off and landing).
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Roger... Not sure what I'm missing , but that's okay.
 
Kritchlow said:
I am not even going to research your intricacies... It is general belief, that it has been sufficiently vetted, that sim time is not total time, or flight time. You can spin the words however you want, but that's the consensus.
Click to expand...

Yup...listen to enough old wives, and it's "sufficiently vetted", I guess.
 
jordane93 said:
You certainly could have logged it as simulator time and simulated instrument time but I guess it desn't really matter now.
Click to expand...
I wonder if you can show me what paragraph of 14 CFR 61.51 covers logging "simulator time" and what FAA requirements there are for "simulator time". I know of none.
 
Kritchlow said:
I am not even going to research your intricacies... It is general belief, that it has been sufficiently vetted, that sim time is not total time, or flight time. You can spin the words however you want, but that's the consensus.
Click to expand...
Then the "consensus" need to re-read the relevant regulations. There is no such thing in the FAR's as "total time" -- just "flight time" and "pilot time", and you can log the latter in a flight simulation device but not the former.
 
Ron Levy said:
I wonder if you can show me what paragraph of 14 CFR 61.51 covers logging "simulator time" and what FAA requirements there are for "simulator time". I know of none.
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I assume his logbook has a simulator time column which he could have logged it as or created a column that has simulator time which would be logged as pilot time per your above post.
 
jordane93 said:
I assume his logbook has a simulator time column which he could have logged it as or created a column that has simulator time which would be logged as pilot time per your above post.
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You can put anything you want in a column labeled "simulator time", since the FAA doesn't use that term. However, you may have problems applying time from that column to things the FAA does require, since there is no definition for that time.
 
Ron Levy said:
Then the "consensus" need to re-read the relevant regulations. There is no such thing in the FAR's as "total time" -- just "flight time" and "pilot time", and you can log the latter in a flight simulation device but not the former.
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Lol!!! I know you like to parse words, but I truly thought you would grasp the simple concept of "total time", meaning "total pilot time", or "total duration of flight", or any other variant.

The point is, simulator time is NOT flight time. Period. Twist the words however you see fit.
 
Kritchlow said:
Lol!!! I know you like to parse words, but I truly thought you would grasp the simple concept of "total time", meaning "total pilot time", or "total duration of flight", or any other variant.

The point is, simulator time is NOT flight time. Period. Twist the words however you see fit.
Click to expand...

Is "Total Time" :

a. Total Flight Time
b. Total Pilot Time
c. Total of both

I use it for c in my logbook, and therefore, I log Flight Sim time as total time, but not under ASEL or AMEL.

edit: In fact, here is exactly how I logged time in the FRASCA:

Date: 9/24/2005
Aircraft Type: Simulator
Aircraft Ident: FRASCA3827
Route of Flight: (blank)
Nr. Inst. App: 4
Remarks: ILS and Holding, Multiengine Sim
Nr TO: (blank)
Nr Ldg: (blank)
Aircraft Category:
* ASEL: (blank)
* AMEL: (blank)
* Complex: (blank)
* High Perf: (blank)
Night: (blank)
Actual Instrument: (blank)
Simulated Instrument: 1.0
Flight Simulator: 1.0
Cross County: (blank)
Solo: (blank)
Dual Received: 1.0
Pilot in Command: (blank)
Total Duration: 1.0
 
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SkyHog said:
Is "Total Time" :

a. Total Flight Time
b. Total Pilot Time
c. Total of both

I use it for c in my logbook, and therefore, I log Flight Sim time as total time, but not under ASEL or AMEL.

edit: In fact, here is exactly how I logged time in the FRASCA:

Date: 9/24/2005
Aircraft Type: Simulator
Aircraft Ident: FRASCA3827
Route of Flight: (blank)
Nr. Inst. App: 4
Remarks: ILS and Holding, Multiengine Sim
Nr TO: (blank)
Nr Ldg: (blank)
Aircraft Category:
* ASEL: (blank)
* AMEL: (blank)
* Complex: (blank)
* High Perf: (blank)
Night: (blank)
Actual Instrument: (blank)
Simulated Instrument: 1.0
Flight Simulator: 1.0
Cross County: (blank)
Solo: (blank)
Dual Received: 1.0
Pilot in Command: (blank)
Total Duration: 1.0
Click to expand...
How about-
D. None of the above

It's simulator time, nothing more.
 
That said, please keep in mind simulator time does indeed count for many requirements.
I have five type ratings, trained and checked completely in the sim.
 
Kritchlow said:
Lol!!! I know you like to parse words, but I truly thought you would grasp the simple concept of "total time", meaning "total pilot time", or "total duration of flight", or any other variant.
Click to expand...
Since "total pilot time" and "total duration of flight" are two different things, the concept you want me to grasp is self-contradictory -- and that's what you do not seem to grasp.

The point is, simulator time is NOT flight time. Period.
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...which is pretty much what I said from the very beginning (notwithstanding the fact that there is no such term in Part 61 as "simulator time"). :mad2:
 
SkyHog said:
Is "Total Time" :

a. Total Flight Time
b. Total Pilot Time
c. Total of both
Click to expand...
d. None of the above. The term "Total Time" does not exist in the FAA's regulatory parlance.

However, Total Pilot Time is the sum of Total Flight Time plus those Pilot Time elements which are not Flight Time, specifically time during which one:
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
Click to expand...
See 14 CFR 61.1 for details.

If there is a column in your logbook labeled "Total Time", it's up to you to decide whether to use it for Total Flight Time, Total Pilot Time, or anything else you choose. However, for FAA purposes, you'd better be able to determine what you have in the way of Flight Time and/or Pilot Time if the FAA wants one or both of those numbers.
 
Ron Levy said:
Since "total pilot time" and "total duration of flight" are two different things, the concept you want me to grasp is self-contradictory -- and that's what you do not seem to grasp.

...which is pretty much what I said from the very beginning (notwithstanding the fact that there is no such term in Part 61 as "simulator time"). :mad2:
Click to expand...

Then we agree.

Sometimes I swear you look for controversy by parsing words and phrases. I think you are smart enough to know exactly what I meant. The semantics can just drive people away from this forum.
 
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