"Proceed on-course" Discrepancy?

HighFlyingA380

HighFlyingA380

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Jim F.
I'm getting some mixed answers regarding what I can do with this. Depart IFR with a clearance on a heading and contact departure. So we're off, and over to departure. Sometimes right away it will be a simple "cleared on course" or also "upon reaching 2,000 proceed on course." Most of 'em will just punch the handy D-> button and go direct to our first fix. A few say that's wrong, as we weren't given a direct to clearance, and we need to reintercept our original course line. So what is it? I've searched around, and cannot find any supporting material either way.
 
I would proceed from my present position to the next fix in my clearance...that has never failed me...

I have had some unanticipated vectors just after departure that took me up to 10-15 miles off of course...some almost none...the controller knows exactly where you are when he clears you on course...I doubt seriously he expect you to work your way back to your original course...

But hey...I'll make some popcorn...:popcorn::popcorn:
 
If your original clearance says "radar vectors XXX" then going direct to the first fix is what I expect you to do. Most of the controllers I work with will offer a heading to the first fix as well as a clearance direct to that fix.
 
Direct to the first waypoint
 
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Assuming we are talking about departure to first fix ONLY, not between enroute fixes...

Your starting point is the airport. Rarely is the airport on an established flyable segment of an airway, so you are in a transition phase from departure to your first fix. Unless you are issued a published DP to get you to the first fix, there is no "route" to fly to get to that first fix. I would argue that the imaginary line from the airport to the first fix (which I assume you mean as your "original course line") is irrelevant.

I look at something like foreflight IFR route filing also. The "route" does not include the departure airport, only the first fix of the enroute segment.

Kelvin said:
I would proceed from my present position to the next fix in my clearance.
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Agree. If ATC wanted something different I would expect vectors, a "direct to", or a VOR radial to fly.
 
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HighFlyingA380 said:
I'm getting some mixed answers regarding what I can do with this. Depart IFR with a clearance on a heading and contact departure. So we're off, and over to departure. Sometimes right away it will be a simple "cleared on course" or also "upon reaching 2,000 proceed on course." Most of 'em will just punch the handy D-> button and go direct to our first fix. A few say that's wrong, as we weren't given a direct to clearance, and we need to reintercept our original course line. So what is it? I've searched around, and cannot find any supporting material either way.
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Prob'ly doesn't matter that much?
 
Nice read. The relevant snipit...

"The controller really doesn't mean "on course." He really wants you to proceed direct to 6L4. If he really meant "on course" then you would have to get "established on the route centerline" of the course you filed -- HKY..6L4. Trust me, the controller really doesn't want you to reverse course, go back to HKY and then proceed direct 6L4 "on the route centerline."

Although not an offical FAA document but article from:

Don Brown
Facility Safety Representative
National Air Traffic Controllers Association
Atlanta ARTCC
 
If the controller really wanted you to intercept a course line he or she would say, "heading xyz to join". But then I'm not an official source document. :)
 
On course means that, on course to your next wpt. Direct to your next waypoint.

I've never seen anyone re intercept
 
On course to next wot. Occasionally the controller will ask for your heading to that way point.
 
frfly172 said:
On course to next wot. Occasionally the controller will ask for your heading to that way point.
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Just had that happen last week. I was direct KEMV in Virginia and overflying the Greensboro NC Class C. Approach came on and said, "unfamiliar with your destination. What's your on-course heading?"
 
You can go direct anywhere you want after "resume on course" provided your instruments are such that people complement you on their accuracy.
 
Everskyward said:
If the controller really wanted you to intercept a course line he or she would say, "heading xyz to join". But then I'm not an official source document. :)
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Exactly. I don't mean to sound condescending, but anytime you're unsure or confused about a clearance, any clearance, just ask - regardless of the circumstances. Personally, I'd go direct to the next fix. It's been my personal experience that somewhere in the revised clearance they'll say exactly what they want you to do and if they want you do do anything different, they'll let you know. But, when in doubt, all you have to do is ask.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
I'm getting some mixed answers regarding what I can do with this. Depart IFR with a clearance on a heading and contact departure. So we're off, and over to departure. Sometimes right away it will be a simple "cleared on course" or also "upon reaching 2,000 proceed on course." Most of 'em will just punch the handy D-> button and go direct to our first fix. A few say that's wrong, as we weren't given a direct to clearance, and we need to reintercept our original course line. So what is it? I've searched around, and cannot find any supporting material either way.
Click to expand...

The most efficient way to reintercept your original course line would be to proceed direct to the first fix - the "end" of that (segment of the) course line.
So, both answers are correct ;)
 
One of the recent changes to the controller manual, 7110.65V, was to add Impromptu Point to Point RNAV routes in airspace that does not enjoy radar surveillance. These routes may have portions that have radar coverage or the airport departure procedure takes the aircraft a significant distance from the point to point route. In any event, if an aircraft has filed such a route, they are expected to and required to join the original course defined by the two waypoints that specify the course if they receive vectors or because of the departure procedure are taken off the original point to point route. IOW, direct to the end waypoint is not assumed when cleared to resume own navigation.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
I'm getting some mixed answers regarding what I can do with this. Depart IFR with a clearance on a heading and contact departure. So we're off, and over to departure. Sometimes right away it will be a simple "cleared on course" or also "upon reaching 2,000 proceed on course." Most of 'em will just punch the handy D-> button and go direct to our first fix. A few say that's wrong, as we weren't given a direct to clearance, and we need to reintercept our original course line. So what is it? I've searched around, and cannot find any supporting material either way.
Click to expand...

Not enough information. If you haven't been radar identified, and if your smart, you'll continue with the IFR departure procedure (if you need it) before turning "on course". The heading assigned by the tower is for traffic. If a DVA (diverse vectoring area) exists at the airport (unlikely), you can be assigned a radar vector by the tower. If there are standard 135 takeoff minimums, then a standard 200'/nm climb gradient is all that's needed for obstacle clearance, which is the same as used for a DVA.

dtuuri
 
Shawn said:
Nice read. The relevant snipit...

"The controller really doesn't mean "on course." He really wants you to proceed direct to 6L4. If he really meant "on course" then you would have to get "established on the route centerline" of the course you filed -- HKY..6L4. Trust me, the controller really doesn't want you to reverse course, go back to HKY and then proceed direct 6L4 "on the route centerline.".....
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OK, let's say we're equipped /A filed and cleared BIL --D-> GGW and then "own navigation on course" after being vectored 5 miles off course for traffic. GGW is too far away to receive a navigable VOR signal so you can't just go present position direct, BIL is already 10 miles behind, the obvious action is to take up a heading to intercept the original course, the only real question should be how steep an angle to intercept?
If you're /G then you can just go pp --D-> GGW, OTOH if you're /A you'll have to navigate via the BIL --D-> GGW course "own nav". I'd suggest the controller really doesn't care which way you do it, he's just expecting you to head off to the north northeast.
 
John Collins said:
One of the recent changes to the controller manual, 7110.65V, was to add Impromptu Point to Point RNAV routes in airspace that does not enjoy radar surveillance. These routes may have portions that have radar coverage or the airport departure procedure takes the aircraft a significant distance from the point to point route. In any event, if an aircraft has filed such a route, they are expected to and required to join the original course defined by the two waypoints that specify the course if they receive vectors or because of the departure procedure are taken off the original point to point route. IOW, direct to the end waypoint is not assumed when cleared to resume own navigation.
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Well then that settles it. Even if you're equipped /G you're expected to join your original route.
 
I heard a controller (GSO if I recall) ream a pilot for going direct to destination after being told to proceed on course. 9 times out of 10, the difference is not significant (my filed route that I regularly fly does have a waypoint in it but it only is displaced about a mile). I've had controllers ask what my "on course heading" is and I ask do you mean to LYH (the fix) or to CJR (my destination).

But if you're someplace like the NE where you get 90 degree turns all over your filed route, it's important to do the expected thing.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Well then that settles it. Even if you're equipped /G you're expected to join your original route.
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I think your scenario shows there's a distinction between "resume own navigation" and "cleared on course" (right after being asked your on course heading). Good one, John. ;)

dtuuri
 
John Collins said:
One of the recent changes to the controller manual, 7110.65V, was to add Impromptu Point to Point RNAV routes in airspace that does not enjoy radar surveillance. These routes may have portions that have radar coverage or the airport departure procedure takes the aircraft a significant distance from the point to point route. In any event, if an aircraft has filed such a route, they are expected to and required to join the original course defined by the two waypoints that specify the course if they receive vectors or because of the departure procedure are taken off the original point to point route. IOW, direct to the end waypoint is not assumed when cleared to resume own navigation.
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On the other hand, this is also from 7110.65V dated April 2014.

d. If appropriate, advise the pilot what to expect when the vector is completed.
PHRASEOLOGY−
EXPECT TO RESUME (Route, SID, STAR, FMSP, etc.).
NOTE−
You must ensure that the pilot is made aware if he/she is expected to resume a previously issued route procedure.
e. Provide radar navigational guidance until the aircraft is:
1. Established within the airspace to be protected for the nonradar route to be flown, or
2. On a heading that will, within a reasonable distance, intercept the nonradar route to be flown, and
3. Informed of its position unless the aircraft is RNAV, FMS, or DME equipped and being vectored toward a VORTAC/TACAN or waypoint and within the service volume of the NAVAID.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(Position with respect to course/fix along route), RESUME OWN NAVIGATION,
or
FLY HEADING (degrees). WHEN ABLE, PROCEED DIRECT (name of fix),
or
RESUME (name/number FMSP/SID/transition/STAR/ procedure).
REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7110.65, Chapter 4, Section 1, NAVAID Use Limitations.
f. Aircraftinstructedtoresumeaprocedurewhich contains restrictions (SID/STAR/FMSP, etc.) must be issued/reissued all applicable restrictions or must be advised to comply with those restrictions.
PHRASEOLOGY−
RESUME ( name/number FMSP/SID/transition/STAR), COMPLY WITH RESTRICTIONS.
EXAMPLE−
“Resume the Mudde One Arrival, comply with restrictions.”
“Cleared direct Luxor, resume the Ksino One arrival, comply with restrictions.”
g. Aircraft vectored off an RNAV route must be recleared to the next waypoint or as requested by the pilot.
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Whenever I get a proceed on course I always just hit direct to the fix on the GPS regardless of where I am.
 
jordane93 said:
Whenever I get a proceed on course I always just hit direct to the fix on the GPS regardless of where I am.
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Do be careful with that habit. Taking a shortcut off an ODP proved fatal for this guy and his sons. He even knew before takeoff when there was still time to think it over.
"The controller revised the pilot’s filed altitude and flight plan and amended the route to follow the southbound departure to the KICNE intersection and then fly direct to Riverton, Wyoming, to rejoin the original routing. No published transition route from KICNE to Riverton was available, and no information was readily available to the pilot that showed the minimum IFR altitude (MIA) along that route segment."​

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
Do be careful with that habit. Taking a shortcut off an ODP proved fatal for this guy and his sons. He even knew before takeoff when there was still time to think it over.
"The controller revised the pilot’s filed altitude and flight plan and amended the route to follow the southbound departure to the KICNE intersection and then fly direct to Riverton, Wyoming, to rejoin the original routing. No published transition route from KICNE to Riverton was available, and no information was readily available to the pilot that showed the minimum IFR altitude (MIA) along that route segment."​

dtuuri
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Definitely. Flying in LI, I don't really need to worry about terrain, but in that case you need to plan accordingly.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
OK, let's say we're equipped /A filed and cleared BIL --D-> GGW and then "own navigation on course" after being vectored 5 miles off course for traffic. GGW is too far away to receive a navigable VOR signal so you can't just go present position direct, BIL is already 10 miles behind, the obvious action is to take up a heading to intercept the original course, the only real question should be how steep an angle to intercept?
If you're /G then you can just go pp --D-> GGW, OTOH if you're /A you'll have to navigate via the BIL --D-> GGW course "own nav". I'd suggest the controller really doesn't care which way you do it, he's just expecting you to head off to the north northeast.
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In that scenario, I would make a heading direct to the VOR, and once I'm within range to receive the signal, continue on a direct course from that point.
 
MarkZ said:
If your original clearance says "radar vectors XXX" then going direct to the first fix is what I expect you to do. Most of the controllers I work with will offer a heading to the first fix as well as a clearance direct to that fix.
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This. Which is also in line with 5-6-2 of the .65.

If you're RNAV and on a vector then the controller should be clearing you direct to the next waypoint. "Proceed on course" is vague in my opinion. Whenever I vectored an RNAV off a direct route I always used "Piedmont 3196, turn right / left, when able proceed direct XYZ." If I had taken them significantly off a course between the two fixes, then I'd amend them present position direct "XYZ." Or, simply get on the landline and get approval from the next facility. Never expected a pilot to return to a previous course that I took them off.
 
Depends on your original clearance. If it was "fly heading 090 vectors to [whatever]", then after hearing "proceed on course", I'd go direct to [whatever]. If the original clearance was "enter controlled airspace heading 090, V123 XYZ", I'd stay on 090 until intercepting V123, then join it. And if I wasn't sure, I'd ask the controller -- as 91.123 requires.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
I'm getting some mixed answers regarding what I can do with this. Depart IFR with a clearance on a heading and contact departure. So we're off, and over to departure. Sometimes right away it will be a simple "cleared on course" or also "upon reaching 2,000 proceed on course." Most of 'em will just punch the handy D-> button and go direct to our first fix. A few say that's wrong, as we weren't given a direct to clearance, and we need to reintercept our original course line. So what is it? I've searched around, and cannot find any supporting material either way.
Click to expand...

You should direct this question to the FAA Chief Counsel.
 
Velocity173 said:
This. Which is also in line with 5-6-2 of the .65.

If you're RNAV and on a vector then the controller should be clearing you direct to the next waypoint. "Proceed on course" is vague in my opinion. Whenever I vectored an RNAV off a direct route I always used "Piedmont 3196, turn right / left, when able proceed direct XYZ." If I had taken them significantly off a course between the two fixes, then I'd amend them present position direct "XYZ." Or, simply get on the landline and get approval from the next facility. Never expected a pilot to return to a previous course that I took them off.
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Agree. I have been looking into this and it seems to be a controversy on many internet pilot forums with people on both sides. The consensus seems to be that "proceed on course" is vague, especially in the context of an IFR flight plan, which I am guessing is what the OP was referring to.
 
roncachamp said:
You should direct this question to the FAA Chief Counsel.
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Better yet, ask the controller with whom you are speaking. While the answer you get may not be the same every time in every place with every controller, it will be the answer which keeps you out of trouble on that day in that place with that controller.
 
Ron Levy said:
Better yet, ask the controller with whom you are speaking. While the answer you get may not be the same every time in every place with every controller, it will be the answer which keeps you out of trouble on that day in that place with that controller.
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I agree with this 100%
 
John Collins said:
One of the recent changes to the controller manual, 7110.65V, was to add Impromptu Point to Point RNAV routes in airspace that does not enjoy radar surveillance. These routes may have portions that have radar coverage or the airport departure procedure takes the aircraft a significant distance from the point to point route. In any event, if an aircraft has filed such a route, they are expected to and required to join the original course defined by the two waypoints that specify the course if they receive vectors or because of the departure procedure are taken off the original point to point route. IOW, direct to the end waypoint is not assumed when cleared to resume own navigation.
Click to expand...
That seems pretty clear, when do you suppose something similar will be published in the AIM? ..........after all pilots aren't expected to be familiar with the controller manual :confused:
 
Everskyward said:
On the other hand, this is also from 7110.65V dated April 2014.
g. Aircraft vectored off an RNAV route must be recleared to the next waypoint or as requested by the pilot.​
Click to expand...
It seems to me it doesn't say what you think. It isn't saying you must be "cleared" to the next waypoint. It says "re" cleared, meaning via direct or resume own navigation (reintercept course).

Everskyward said:
The consensus seems to be that "proceed on course" is vague, especially in the context of an IFR flight plan, which I am guessing is what the OP was referring to.
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Does it seem clearer in light of the above?

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
It seems to me it doesn't say what you think. It isn't saying you must be "cleared" to the next waypoint. It says "re" cleared, meaning via direct or resume own navigation (reintercept course).
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No, I think it means what it says, that on an RNAV course you need to be cleared to the next waypoint, not cleared to join.

See what Velocity 173 wrote in post #29.

If you're RNAV and on a vector then the controller should be clearing you direct to the next waypoint.
Click to expand...

In this context we are talking about RNAV routes, not traditional airways based on VORs.
 
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Everskyward said:
No, I think it means what it says, that on an RNAV course you need to be cleared to the next waypoint, not cleared to join.

See what Velocity 173 wrote in post #29.



In this context we are talking about RNAV routes, not traditional airways based on VORs.
Click to expand...

I understand that we're discussing RNAV routes. I also see that Velocity173 said, "Should be clearing you direct to the next waypoint." There are times a controller may need you back on your original RNAV course. Velocity173 is a controller and he appears to agree with me.

dtuuri
 
Reading through this thread confirms what I have experienced. Depending on what airspace you are in and who is working you, the answer will differ.

I am /G and have been vectored to shorten legs but with the understanding that I will re-intercept the assigned routing. And there are times that I have been given "cleared direct to destination" with the destination being a couple hundred miles away and then are times I have been clear to destination, only to be be put back on a victor or T airway.
 
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dtuuri said:
I understand that we're discussing RNAV routes. I also see that Velocity173 said, "Should be clearing you direct to the next waypoint." There are times a controller may need you back on your original RNAV course. Velocity173 is a controller and he appears to agree with me.



dtuuri
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Exactly....
 
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