Procedure Turn Barb

[bobmrg]

So with an 80/260 do you time it outbound before you do the "80/" or do you just roll into the turn as soon as you cross the fix?

Ya got me, right in the kisser. My "no timing" comment related to the PT itself, not the outbound time before initiating it.

Bob

 

[bobmrg]

I agree, I'm just trying to understand what could be the advantage to the 80/260 and why our old friend Bob would say it doesn't require timing
I'd say the biggest advantage to the "standard" 45/180 and I assume why it's the method depicted on the charts is it's flexibility. Unlike the other commonly used methods you can ALWAYS make it work, under any wind conditions and on any IAP that calls for a procedure turn.

The form that the procedures designers send to the chart printers (Wally would know the number) says something like "Procedure turn east." How Jepp and Aeronav choose to depict the turn is their choice, with no government involvement.

An 80-260 couldn't be simpler....from the outbound, roll into a turn in the appropriate direction; when the heading indicator shows 80 degrees of turn, roll from one bank into the other and turn until you reach the inbound or when the electronic guidance indicates an intercept.

Bob

 

[RussR]

The form that the procedures designers send to the chart printers (Wally would know the number) says something like "Procedure turn east." How Jepp and Aeronav choose to depict the turn is their choice, with no government involvement.

The forms are the 8260-3 (for ILS and RNAV) and 8260-5 (for VOR and NDB). They both say the same thing:

PT ____ SIDE OF COURSE _____ OUTBOUND _____ FT WITHIN _____ MILES OF _____ (IAF)


The blanks are filled in by the developer. So, "PT North side of course 090 outbound 3000 ft within 10 miles of AAA VOR"

That would make a 090 outbound heading and a left turn for the PT (to the north). The charting group at AeroNav will chart that with the standard barb towards the north side and add the 045 and 215 headings on the barb.

Edit: disabled smilies in text at Palmpilot's request.

 

[Palmpilot]

The forms are the 8260-3 (for ILS and RNAV) and 8260-5 (for VOR and NDB).

By the way, you can suppress the unwanted smiley face by checking "Disable smilies in text" below the Submit Reply button.

 

[Palmpilot]

Like this:

The forms are the 8260-3 (for ILS and RNAV) and 8260-5 (for VOR and NDB).

 

[flyingron]

By the way, you can suppress the unwanted smiley face by checking "Disable smilies in text" below the Submit Reply button.

They called her "Procedure Turn Barb." She was the queen of the ILS.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

Ya got me, right in the kisser. My "no timing" comment related to the PT itself, not the outbound time before initiating it.

Bob

OK, now I get'cha BTW, another "no timing" PT method that was told to me by an old 135 pilot was for the 45/180 on a VOR approach, just turn and fly the 45* until you have a full scale deflection on the CDI and then make the 180*, I haven't tried it but it sounds like it'd work in a pinch except the distance from the course in relation to a full scale deflction would vary depending on how far out you went

 

[peerlesscowboy]

OK, now I get'cha BTW, another "no timing" PT method that was told to me by an old 135 pilot was for the 45/180 on a VOR approach, just turn and fly the 45* until you have a full scale deflection on the CDI and then make the 180*, I haven't tried it but it sounds like it'd work in a pinch except the distance from the course in relation to a full scale deflction would vary depending on how far out you went

FWIW, tried it today and it works at least with light wind. VOR approach, just flew the outbound course to 4 DME then turned left to the 45* heading and maintained that until full scale deflection, standard rate 180* right turn and intercepted the inbound course Didn't bother with timing at all.

 

[poadeleted20]

BTW, another "no timing" PT method that was told to me by an old 135 pilot was for the 45/180 on a VOR approach, just turn and fly the 45* until you have a full scale deflection on the CDI and then make the 180*, I haven't tried it but it sounds like it'd work in a pinch except the distance from the course in relation to a full scale deflction would vary depending on how far out you went

Only works with a PT anchored on the VOR. Won't work with a LOC (full scale with LOC being about 1/3 the angular displacement of full scale with VOR so you'll start the turnback too close to the inbound courseline and overshoot) and won't work with a PT anchored on a fix away from the VOR such as the VOR 36 at SYI (being farther from the VOR, you'll farther in linear distance from the courseline before reaching full scale, potentially exiting the protected airspace before reaching full scale). For those reasons, I recommend sticking with the old-fashioned method of timing one minute on the clock when doing the 45-180 PT maneuver.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

Only works with a PT anchored on the VOR. Won't work with a LOC (full scale with LOC being about 1/3 the angular displacement of full scale with VOR so you'll start the turnback too close to the inbound courseline and overshoot) and won't work with a PT anchored on a fix away from the VOR such as the VOR 36 at SYI (being farther from the VOR, you'll farther in linear distance from the courseline before reaching full scale, potentially exiting the protected airspace before reaching full scale). For those reasons, I recommend sticking with the old-fashioned method of timing one minute on the clock when doing the 45-180 PT maneuver.

Yes, I agree with all that. OTOH having tried it I think I'll file it in my little bag of tricks under "interesting/could prove useful sometime"

 

[peerlesscowboy]

......................, I recommend sticking with the old-fashioned method of timing one minute on the clock when doing the 45-180 PT maneuver.

A bit of trivia perhaps but; concerning timing the procedure turn, do you teach timing one minute from when you start the 45* turn to when you start the 180*? I've always timed 1 minute & 15 seconds (15 seconds for the standard rate 45* turn plus 1 minute on the outbound heading). So lets say I decide to fly two minutes outbound---I'll start timing abeam the fix, start my 45* turn at 2 minutes and start the 180* turn at 3 min & 15 sec.