Procedure NA for arrivals at …

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Bill6

Filing Flight Plan
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Bill7070
Hi,

A couple of questions regarding the phrase above, frequently seen on approach plates.

Background: Earlier this week I was flying to Foothills Regional KMRN from SC. I was on V605 and 8 or 10 nm from the IAF named GENOD. I asked for and received the RNAV (GPS) RWY 3 approach. The Atlanta Center controller cleared me from GENOD with the only additional instruction to maintain 5200 until established. I did the approach and all went well.

First question: The procedure states that it is not available for arrivals at GENOD on V605. So I guess the controller can give it anyways? I was coming from the south.

Second question: This is more of a general question. I cannot see why they would state that this approach is not available for “arrivals at GENOD on V605.” Maybe coming from the north would be a problem because it would be more than a 90 degree turn to the IF of GONGE but it would seem very easy (and it was) to execute this if coming from the South on V605. Am I reading it wrong? If I’m reading it right could someone tell me why that rule might be there?

Thanks,
Bill Magill
KMKS
N7070V 76 Mooney M20C
 
The MCA at GENOD on V605 northbound is 10k. That would require a 414ft/nm descent gradient on the segment after GENOD. Not a TERPs guy (do we have any of those here? *cough*), but my guess is that it exceeds a threshold.

The controller can pull you off the airway with "direct GENOD" then clear you with "cross GENOD at or above [ATC's MVA/MIA], cleared RNAV RWY 3 approach."
 
coma24 said:
The MCA at GENOD on V605 northbound is 10k. That would require a 414ft/nm descent gradient on the segment after GENOD. Not a TERPs guy (do we have any of those here? *cough*), but my guess is that it exceeds a threshold.

The controller can pull you off the airway with "direct GENOD" then clear you with "cross GENOD at or above [ATC's MVA/MIA], cleared RNAV RWY 3 approach."
Click to expand...
Yeah, it doesn't seem to be about the 90 or 120 degree thing like is usual for these things. Like for instance the note about BZM and the Terminal Route to GONGE. The MCA at GENOD should make no difference in as much it is about continuing Northbound on V605. The MEA South of GENOD is 6000G. 12.8 miles to get down to 4700 for GONGE doesn't seem to steep to me. Coming from the North heading Southbound, the MEA is 10,000 and the MOCA is 8500. Using MOCA irregardless of the 22 mile thing is authorized for RNAV equipped planes. Yeah, that might be a tad bit steep. But of course all that can be a non issue like you said about throwing the airway numbers out the window with a Direct from ATC. Now for the stuff I'm probably missing. Paging @aterpster and/or @RussR
 
coma24 said:
The MCA at GENOD on V605 northbound is 10k. That would require a 414ft/nm descent gradient on the segment after GENOD. Not a TERPs guy (do we have any of those here? *cough*), but my guess is that it exceeds a threshold.

The controller can pull you off the airway with "direct GENOD" then clear you with "cross GENOD at or above [ATC's MVA/MIA], cleared RNAV RWY 3 approach."
Click to expand...

Okay that makes sense. Thanks. Yea, that’s what he said, ”Cross GENOD at or above 5200, cleared…” I was at 7000 at the time.
 
On a related topic - I scratched my head at "Procedure Turn NA" on this plate which has no procedure turn listed. I usually read NA = Not Authorized, but I guess in this case it "NA= you can't do it because it doesn't exist, never mind that because it doesn't exist you couldn't do it anyway, given there is no "it". What am I missing?

upload_2022-1-6_15-11-53.png
 
That's a pretty new Approach. 02DEC21. Wonder if it's a new protocol. Putting that on all Charts that don't have a PT. Or maybe just ones where the Missed Approach Hold is at an Approach Fix. I've heard folk call those an HILPT many times and seem to believe that they are an HILPT, which they are not. Or maybe it isn't something new. I couldn't really say I haven't seen it before
 
Bill6 said:
Second question: This is more of a general question. I cannot see why they would state that this approach is not available for “arrivals at GENOD on V605.” Maybe coming from the north would be a problem because it would be more than a 90 degree turn to the IF of GONGE but it would seem very easy (and it was) to execute this if coming from the South on V605. Am I reading it wrong? If I’m reading it right could someone tell me why that rule might be there?
Click to expand...

I can't figure any reason for it to be restriction if on V605 northbound. There is no angle of turn issue. There is no descent gradient issue (maximum descent gradient in an initial segment is 500 ft/nm, which means the MEA going to GENOD could be published at up to 11,100 and still be okay).

I suggest you contact the FAA and ask. They will likely answer with the reason, or send a NOTAM. Please let us know what you find out!

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/procedures/

I do suspect it was intended to be "at GENOD on V605 southbound".
 
WDD said:
On a related topic - I scratched my head at "Procedure Turn NA" on this plate which has no procedure turn listed. I usually read NA = Not Authorized, but I guess in this case it "NA= you can't do it because it doesn't exist, never mind that because it doesn't exist you couldn't do it anyway, given there is no "it". What am I missing?
Click to expand...

That procedure hasn't received a "full amendment" (meaning it's only received "abbreviated amendments" and an up-lettering each time) since it was an Orig in 1991. I have no idea what the charting rules were at that time. It would not currently be charted with that note.

This is the original form, with what I suspect drove the "Procedure Turn NA" note in 1991 identified in red:
https://www.faa.gov/aero_docs/acifp...25CEAC6592E2353-FYM-NDBR/TN_FYM_VD02_ORIG.pdf

upload_2022-1-6_15-2-12.png

Under current policy, that "NA" would be left blank.

Every subsequent change (Orig-A through the current Orig-F) has been made through NOTAM action:
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...25CEAC6592E2353-FYM-NDBR&type=ndbr&nasrId=FYM

This means that the charting office just changes those items on the chart which are addressed in each NOTAM.
 
I have never understood the chart notation "procedure N/A for arrivals from (a particular direction)"

If I can't do it from "this direction", then I can sure as hell get the airplane in a place that will be from an acceptable direction, and in probably less than a few minutes.
I wondered if the whole thing had to do with established traffic routes.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I have never understood the chart notation "procedure N/A for arrivals from (a particular direction)"

If I can't do it from "this direction", then I can sure as hell get the airplane in a place that will be from an acceptable direction, and in probably less than a few minutes.
I wondered if the whole thing had to do with established traffic routes.
Click to expand...

Probably. But, you're under the control of ATC, so I'm assuming they won't put you where you're not supposed to be to intercept the approach. It's not like you're flying IFR around randomly/choose where you're flying. So you'd never get a clearance like that which includes flying on the Victor Highway 321 and then intercept the approach.

Kind of like saying "You can't get there from here".
 
I have flown through GENOD before. I recall airlines traffic into Charlotte being routed through GENOD. Coming from the South, if I filed for GENOD at 10,000, I would never get that route. If I filed for GENOD at 6 or 8,000, I would always be cleared as filled. So, I would frequently file for 6 or 8 then request 10 when I got closer to GENOD. Perhaps this is related to the N/A?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I have never understood the chart notation "procedure N/A for arrivals from (a particular direction)"

If I can't do it from "this direction", then I can sure as hell get the airplane in a place that will be from an acceptable direction, and in probably less than a few minutes.
I wondered if the whole thing had to do with established traffic routes.
Click to expand...
No. TERPs.
 
FORANE said:
I have flown through GENOD before. I recall airlines traffic into Charlotte being routed through GENOD. Coming from the South, if I filed for GENOD at 10,000, I would never get that route. If I filed for GENOD at 6 or 8,000, I would always be cleared as filled. So, I would frequently file for 6 or 8 then request 10 when I got closer to GENOD. Perhaps this is related to the N/A?
Click to expand...

You're overthinking it. It is almost certainly due to the documentation standards in 1991 shown on the form I posted.
 
How the heck did you pull up a plate from 1991? You win today’s prize. Well done!
 
WDD said:
How the heck did you pull up a plate from 1991? You win today’s prize. Well done!
Click to expand...

I appreciate the prize and will look for it in the mail, but it's all in the link at the bottom of that post. The FAA makes these forms pretty readily available, you just have to know what to look for. It's not always complete information going back that far, but on this one we got lucky.
 
WDD said:
It's not like you're flying IFR around randomly/choose where you're flying.
Click to expand...

I was thinking more of:
"N1234 request vectors to approach CANDU from the west"
(where CANDU is a fix well out from the IF)
 
RussR said:
I appreciate the prize and will look for it in the mail, but it's all in the link at the bottom of that post. The FAA makes these forms pretty readily available, you just have to know what to look for. It's not always complete information going back that far, but on this one we got lucky.
Click to expand...
That link is specific to FYM. What is the generic link? Thanks.
 
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