Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
What does a CFI need to see/observe/do, in order for that instructor to sign off a stu-pilot for the written?
Original cfi is long gone
Original cfi is long gone
Private written sign off
- Thread starter Let'sgoflying!
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If they have a documented syllabus with the prior instructor's sign off on each ground school section completed, that may help another CFI sign off. However, one good method that will help pass the test with flying colors is to invest in an online GS and, upon completion, a sign off that is valid will be issued. I did one and used the certificate for both PP and Instrument written exams. Cost a little bit but worth it IMO. Gold Seal for instrument/ Sporty's for PP. I think Gold Seal is a little cheaper but better IMO.
Htaylor
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Htaylor
If a student pilot can show me a couple of practice tests in the 90%+ range from a recognized online source, I'll sign them off for the knowledge test. I usually go over anything that appears to be a weak point as well. It's been my experience that people get 5 to 10 percent lower on the real thing vs. the practice tests. The practice tests should be reasonably recent. Within the last 2 weeks or so.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Couple of practice tests scoring well is generally what I looked for. PM me if you know someone who needs a sign off, happy to help.
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
Thanks!
schmookeeg
En-Route
Do they track written exam pass rates for CFIs? I follow the similar "praccy test" thing but I'm wondering if I should just sign off any old rando without concern and not give it another thought. 
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
You might want to read the FAA 61-65H. Your duty as an instructor is a bit more than reviewing practice tests results.
“Students may develop in individual home study curriculum compiled from material described in the applicable FAA knowledge test guide.”
“Applicants are encouraged to obtain ground training using one of the methods described in items 1-4 above. An applicant who is unable to provide any of the above documents may present an individually developed home study course to the appropriately certified flight or ground instructor. The instructor will review the course materials and question the student to determine that the course was completed and the applicant does possess the knowledge required for the certificate or rating sought.”
61.35 Knowledge test: Prerequisites and passing grades.
(a) An applicant for a knowledge test must have:
(1) Received an endorsement, if required by this part, from an authorized instructor certifying that the applicant accomplished the appropriate ground-training or a home-study course required by this part for the certificate or rating sought and is prepared for the knowledge test;
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jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sigh…
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
What is the physical act of signing off?
A form?
A letter?
An online thing?
A form?
A letter?
An online thing?
DesertNomad
Pattern Altitude
An endorsement in the applicant’s logbook.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
I get the sigh. If it hasn’t already come to a DPE near you, the FAA is directing DPEs to review entries for the required 61.105(b) ground training in applicant logbooks. When you review the student’s ground training course and question him you should log the date, subject and time spent in his logbook.
61.189 Flight instructor records.
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
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MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
That’s one reason I was told a ground instructor certificate has value..you don’t need to keep those records.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sure, but if you give ground instruction the applicant is still required to log it.
a) General. A person who is applying for a private pilot certificate must receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor……..
FAR 61.51 (b)(2)(iv) requires pilots to log all ground instruction.
schmookeeg
En-Route
Minimum viable 61.105(b) Ground School:
FARs are a thing.
Tell the NTSB if you crash.
The AIM is a free book that you can argue 'force of law' about with randos online.
Your iPad contains charts. If it dies, remember which direction to fly.
Use radios when you need to.
Watch out for scuzzy weather.
Don't crash or sniff other plane butts.
Your plane hates hot and high places.
Your plane won't lift too much, or too forward/aft stuff.
Look up lift, drag, thrust, and weight and what parts of the airplane combat or create them.
If you point the wing too high you'll fall. If you fall in a corkscrew you'll spin. If you spin, pull power, push forward, stomp the nose over with your feet, not your hands.
Don't do anything stupid.
Make sure your plane can fly before you fly it.
Get your hot and fresh written exam signoffs and ground instruction endorsements here, $10 or 1L of decent beer served cold.
FARs are a thing.
Tell the NTSB if you crash.
The AIM is a free book that you can argue 'force of law' about with randos online.
Your iPad contains charts. If it dies, remember which direction to fly.
Use radios when you need to.
Watch out for scuzzy weather.
Don't crash or sniff other plane butts.
Your plane hates hot and high places.
Your plane won't lift too much, or too forward/aft stuff.
Look up lift, drag, thrust, and weight and what parts of the airplane combat or create them.
If you point the wing too high you'll fall. If you fall in a corkscrew you'll spin. If you spin, pull power, push forward, stomp the nose over with your feet, not your hands.
Don't do anything stupid.
Make sure your plane can fly before you fly it.
Get your hot and fresh written exam signoffs and ground instruction endorsements here, $10 or 1L of decent beer served cold.
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
Why a sign off at all?
What harm will come from any student pilot randomly taking a written test?
What harm will come from any student pilot randomly taking a written test?
Lindberg
Final Approach
The major online providers all seem to think that taking practice tests is sufficient "training" to satisfy the requirements for taking the knowledge test, since they provide an endorsement upon your scoring high enough. Have any of them been hassled by the FAA?Minimum viable 61.105(b) Ground School:
FARs are a thing.
Tell the NTSB if you crash.
The AIM is a free book that you can argue 'force of law' about with randos online.
Your iPad contains charts. If it dies, remember which direction to fly.
Use radios when you need to.
Watch out for scuzzy weather.
Don't crash or sniff other plane butts.
Your plane hates hot and high places.
Your plane won't lift too much, or too forward/aft stuff.
Look up lift, drag, thrust, and weight and what parts of the airplane combat or create them.
If you point the wing too high you'll fall. If you fall in a corkscrew you'll spin. If you spin, pull power, push forward, stomp the nose over with your feet, not your hands.
Don't do anything stupid.
Make sure your plane can fly before you fly it.
Get your hot and fresh written exam signoffs and ground instruction endorsements here, $10 or 1L of decent beer served cold.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I hope they're not charging more than $20 for that signature, because that's what they go for on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/2023-Private-Pilot-Test-Prep/dp/1644252473/ You could even buy an old version, as long as the website code hasn't been registered. As long as you get 80%+ on two practice tests, ASA will endorse you.
ETA: The ASA mobile app is $10 but doesn't get you an endorsement, so I guess the endorsement really only costs $10.
See? It's a race to the bottom.
Lindberg
Final Approach
If the FAA thought the CFIs providing endorsements via these apps weren't complying with the regs, I am sure we'd know about it.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
These apps aren’t CFIs providing endorsements, they’re an FAA-approved training program providing the endorsements.
I think the intent is for a CFI to interact with a student. I don't have test prep software that serves as a proxy for interacting, so I'm going to do it in person.
You want to sign off anyone who hands you completed practice exams, go ahead. I guess it depends what length you go to "certify" "required training"
Lindberg
Final Approach
The endorsement is signed by a CFI or GI.
sarangan
Pattern Altitude
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Andrew, CFI-I
They want to make sure that some random guy taking a random test doesn't accidentally pass the test. In other words, the FAA doesn't have confidence in the written test scores.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Long before my time, no CFI endorsement t was required and one could take the test free at Flight Service stations and take the test as many times as you liked until you passed.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Which is probably why the FAA started requiring the endorsement in the first place.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Here's an example. They're doing this out in the open, for probably thousands of students at all levels. The FAA seems satisfied with it.
Attachments
If you look at the credentials of the person signing in the letter you provided, he/she is a ground instructor. I don't think there are any required records for a ground instructor as noted above. I'm not a ground instructor, so I don't really know.
Referring to flight instructor records, 61.189 (b) "A flight instructor must maintain a record in a logbook or separate document that contains the following:" 61.189 (b) (2) says, "The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test, the date, and the results."
If you endorse someone, you are certifying they have received ground training IAW 61.105. 61.105 says the applicant must receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor OR complete a home study course.
Even the Kings sign off applicants as ground instructors.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I'm not sure what point you're chasing, but the endorsement from ASA includes the exact language of the endorsement that you suggested wasn't appropriate to be signed off on the basis of passing a practice test. I'm just pointing out that's done every single day, in full view of the FAA. You may have higher standards than the FAA, which is entirely fine.
I guess for me it comes down to personal integrity. My signature says I'm certifying compliance with 61.105. A complete stranger presenting practice exams isn't sufficient (for me).
I don't know what mechanism ASA and others use to comply with 61.105, but as you say it must be sufficient. I think the providers probably cover themselves by providing a course completion certificate as a proxy for logging ground training.
But this isn't what the OP was asking either.
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Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Situations (1-4 preferred):
1. An FAA approved school providing training issuing completion certificates.
2. A non-FAA approved school providing training issuing completion certificates.
3. An individual instructor providing training and issuing endorsements.
4. An aviation enterprise providing self study course materials issuing completion certificates after a test as evidence self study was completed.
5. An instructor has reviewed an applicants individually developed home study course materials, determined the applicant completed their individually developed self study course and possesses the knowledge (personally questions the applicant) and then issues an endorsement stating they are prepared for the written test.
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I have no memory of getting endorsement for any of the many written tests I've taken over the years. Quickly checking my logbook, I have no obvious endorsements there either. I vaguely remember taking some sort of application form to a testing center, maybe that was something that the instructor signed?
They rely on the words of the regulation
§ 61.105 Aeronautical knowledge.
(a) General. A person who is applying for a private pilot certificate must receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or complete a home-study course on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.
... and the language of AC 61-65H, Paragraph 10.I would have no problem signing off a student for a knowledge test based on my review of the student's study materials and scores on practice tests, which the AC specifically authorizes. But it is listed as a last resort and is pretty unnecessary with the online and specialized courses available.
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For starters, I don't know any test center that will allow a student to "practice" without a CFI signoff. At least none in the Denver area. Altho I only know of a few test centers (1 or 2 at KAPA), one at MeadowLake (KFLY), the one at KCFO/KFTG closed almost 10 years ago. I'm sure there are others in the area but I haven't looked.
This is a side track,
but points to the "no big deal" it was in getting endorsements or whatever was required....the whole process caused me no grief and no stress so nothing to remember....
This thread has me struggling to remember where I even went to take my written exams. The first ones must have been on paper
My first PPL was several years prior to ever taking a flying lesson. It was part of a night ground school the community college I was attending offered, Several weeks of night classes ended with the exam...just did it because I was curious and interested. That of course expired long before I needed it
I have no memory of where I even went for the PPL exam that I used for real...
or for the instrument written
or the commercial written the first time I passed it. The second time I passed it I do vaguely remember, only because that one was computer based...at a local flight school
but points to the "no big deal" it was in getting endorsements or whatever was required....the whole process caused me no grief and no stress so nothing to remember....
This thread has me struggling to remember where I even went to take my written exams. The first ones must have been on paper
My first PPL was several years prior to ever taking a flying lesson. It was part of a night ground school the community college I was attending offered, Several weeks of night classes ended with the exam...just did it because I was curious and interested. That of course expired long before I needed it
I have no memory of where I even went for the PPL exam that I used for real...
or for the instrument written
or the commercial written the first time I passed it. The second time I passed it I do vaguely remember, only because that one was computer based...at a local flight school
schmookeeg
En-Route
This was sort of the crux of my original point. The reg requires that you give instruction, not that you believe the applicant capable of passing said test.
Practically, of course we don't want to sign off failures. But, the reg is not seeking that outcome as-written. Amusingly, I made myself go look at 61.65H again, and the sample endorsement does have that competency language. So there you go, the feds want us to go the extra mile.
Not only the safe harbor endorsement. "Prepared for the knowledge test" is the regulatory language.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I took my Private Pilot written on June 12, 1981…my brother, cousin, and I went to Southwest State University for the test, having endorsements from my dad who gave us ground school. Burgundy ‘76 El Camino, 350 engine. I think my brother had installed a Craig stereo system.
We got home and had to help pick my dad’s Ag Wagon up out of the bean field where he crashed. two weeks in the hospital, but no lasting major effects.
Just to side track some more.