Private Sale or Broker?

dbahn

dbahn

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Dave Bahnson
This has probably been discussed here before, but I may be having to sell my 1975 C206 that I've owned for 40 years. I used a broker a few years ago to sell our PA12 on floats, but I recall the commission was quite high for not a lot of work, but the sale also went off without any bumps. Also, this sale is a little different in that it would include the Yamaha 225 XT that we modified to fit in the cabin and make it into a sort of camper. (Details of that can be found on the Alaska link in my signature if interested.)
 
Looks like it should sell fast. If I hadn't sunk so much money into the 182 already I'd be making an offer :D
 
I hate to hear you may have to sell your 206.

If I had the funds available I would be in the market.

Then I would have to take those itty bitty tires and wheels off... :yesnod:
 
Given how much 206s sell for and thus much you'd have to pay a broker as a fee for doing it, I'd try listing it on my own first. It's worth a little headache to save yourself a 5 digit sum (or it is to me at least!). And my guess is your 206 will be in a high enough price bracket where the worst of the tirekickers won't be a problem.

For your own SA - the Cessna 206s seem to sell pretty quickly from all the data I systematically track. About 1/3 of the universe turns over per month, and that's even including the reboot Cessnas in the $500k+ range. I would bet you don't have much trouble selling this solo.
 
It comes down to how much "you" want to do.....and the tire kickers.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
For your own SA - the Cessna 206s seem to sell pretty quickly from all the data I systematically track. About 1/3 of the universe turns over per month, and that's even including the reboot Cessnas in the $500k+ range. I would bet you don't have much trouble selling this solo.
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I will agree. Last 206 here in Gallup went for asking price and to south America sight unseen.




I know what you're thinking....but it went to a non-profit medical group...
 
Your trips are awesome! How much are you asking for the 206?
 
I bought my 182 from a Broker and had a positive experience dealing with a professional vs a run of the mill owner...now about to sell off my 182P as well and probably gonna use a broker just cuz I don't wanna deal with all the tire kickers and lowballs so debating if it will be worth the 8% off the top or not to just be done with it.
 
As a recent buyer, sell on your own.

During my search, I considered five airplanes -- three from brokers and two from owners. The first broker was extremely slow to respond and didn't seem to care about whether or not the airplane sold. I passed because if I had to chase down basic things to make an offer, it was only going to get worse. The second broker was part of a large company and while I liked the broker and he appeared ethical, I questioned the firm as a whole. The ad and photos did not match the information provided in the listing and it was never corrected even after it was brought to their attention. To that broker credit, he was responsive, seemed to want to make a sale, and provided the photo/information that didn't match his co-worker's listing. The third broker had an airplane I really liked but he flat out lied to me. I called him out on it but he doubled down... even after I obtained the evidence, he still tried to convince me I was wrong. I liked the airplane enough that I made an offer, but adjusted my offer and terms based on the risk being added by the broker. He blew up the deal, or the opportunity for any deal. Sadly for the owner, that airplane is still on the market. I still think that it's likely a very good airplane and should have sold months ago.

I then saw an airplane listed by an owner, I called him and had a fantastic phone call but passed on the airplane as I didn't not want to take on a needed maintenance issue. The next airplane I inquired about was also owner-owned and the transaction was as smooth as can be. From our initial conversation to closing, with the airplane delivered to me, took 9 days.

Both owners were able to answer questions and I was able immediately gauge whether it is someone I trust to buy an airplane from, and whether the airplane will be as it is represented to be. I'd rather deal with a seller-presented airplane unless it's one of the few brokers who are known to be straight shooters (Jimmy from Gmax is one of those guys, I called him up just in case he had an airplane coming on the market and was great to deal earned my trust by disclosing conflict of interest should I move on one of his airplane based on my choice for pre-buy).
 
I really appreciate the comments. They're very helpful and I'm certainly leaning towards doing it on my own, and the mechanic where I store it has offered to help. It's got lots of checkboxes - always hangared, no damage history, all maintenance logs, recent avionics upgrade with G500 +, fairly new paint, etc. Interior is old, but I figure it's better to discount that for the buyer who can customize it for their preferences.

This plane doesn't owe me anything, really. It's been a marvelous run with the thing, but I'm also coming up on the insurability issue soon. I'm in no rush to sell it, but for the time being I'm self-grounding for an uncertain medical issue.
mandm said:
Your trips are awesome! How much are you asking for the 206?
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I have no idea at this point. I'll be gathering opinions from a few people before I set an asking price. Looking at the Trade-a-Plane/Controller, etc. listings gives me the impression that most listings overly optimistic, maybe just to keep some of the tire kickers away.
 
One of the more interesting presentations last year at OSH was done by the CBP. They asked if anyone had a 206. When the gentleman next to me raised his hand, the CBP officer said, "If you want a hassle free sale the cartels will buy it with cash, sight unseen." So, there's an option. :)
 
I have sold two planes in less than 2 weeks myself. One sold in two days.

Good planes are easy to sell.
 
Great plane, great stories. We all appreciate your stewardship. Sold my T206HD 1 year ago for more than paid 2 years prior, and the price continues to climb. I worked with Van Bortel and they were great. Their A&P/IA CFII delivered a squawk-free aircraft to my airport at a fair price and bought it back likewise when I was ready to upgrade. *Might* have saved a little $ by doing it myself but I don't have time. OTH I could have screwed it up royally. Brokering aircraft is unlike selling used cars. Please DM me before going to the cartels lol.
 
Have done it both ways,prefer to sell on my own,brokerage fees are to high for what they provide. You should have no problem selling ,your plane is usually sought after in the market. Put a feeler out on barnstormers.
 
Unless you are so busy you don’t have time to sell the plane yourself, I see zero reason for a broker.

As a buyer, I try to avoid brokers because most of them a used car salesmen in a new profession.
 
Clip4 said:
Unless you are so busy you don’t have time to sell the plane yourself, I see zero reason for a broker.

As a buyer, I try to avoid brokers because most of them a used car salesmen in a new profession.
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If you have tons of time and are equipped and comfortable doing a 50 year AD check, compressions, borescope, comprehensive examination for corrosion (and knowing where it should be found), testing avionics including fail modes on G1000+, crafting contracts, arranging wire transfers (hopefully via 3rd party) and then ferrying etc then you're probably a broker anyway. IDK but I suspect an inverse relationship between planes selling above 100K and private sells. ArrowFlyer86 probably knows the answer to that one.
 
I'm certainly not too busy to put in the effort. I may need to seek help on sales agreements, escrow, etc., and Vermont apparently will expect me to collect sales and use tax, and if I fail to do so they can charge me for it.
 
N444MD said:
If you have tons of time and are equipped and comfortable doing a 50 year AD check, compressions, borescope, comprehensive examination for corrosion (and knowing where it should be found), testing avionics including fail modes on G1000+, crafting contracts, arranging wire transfers (hopefully via 3rd party) and then ferrying etc then you're probably a broker anyway. IDK but I suspect an inverse relationship between planes selling above 100K and private sells. ArrowFlyer86 probably knows the answer to that one.
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You are funny. Brokers don’t perform 50 year AD check, compressions, borescope, comprehensive examination for corrosion (and knowing where it should be found), testing avionics including fail modes on G1000+. Those should be done at a shop or person of your choosing, not the brokers or owner.

And if you are dumb enough to wire transfer to a broker, shame on you, although I am sure there are brokers who will accept your transfer.

Yes, maybe a broker would be good finding you a ferry pilot.
 
There are "Brokers" who do no more than talk on a cell phone trying to flip planes. And there brokers that run large shops, perform annuals, and provide maintenance and management services. The latter perform all the above services. Airmart, for example, is a broker with 2 FT employees who do nothing but audit for ADs. In most "private" purchases the majority of the useful due diligence just doesn't get done. There are a lot folks on this board lamenting the results of those transactions. These are cheaper initially, of course.
 
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dbahn said:
This has probably been discussed here before, but I may be having to sell my 1975 C206 that I've owned for 40 years. I used a broker a few years ago to sell our PA12 on floats, but I recall the commission was quite high for not a lot of work, but the sale also went off without any bumps. Also, this sale is a little different in that it would include the Yamaha 225 XT that we modified to fit in the cabin and make it into a sort of camper. (Details of that can be found on the Alaska link in my signature if interested.)
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Are you comfortable sharing the cost of the avionics upgrade in 2015 ?

And also, can the plane shoot a coupled LPV approach ?

Thank You
 
N444MD said:
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Are you comfortable sharing the cost of the avionics upgrade in 2015 ?

And also, can the plane shoot a coupled LPV approach ?

Thank You
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I'm comfortable sharing that but I will need to dig those up, and I think it can shoot a coupled LPV approach but not sure I ever even tested that. Send me a PM if you have heard from me in a few days.
 
RickC said:
It's a fairly easy DIY if you are so inclined. Spend a little time doing market research, gaining a full understanding of the process, and writing up a great (and detailed) ad. I listed my 172 on several FB pages on a Monday, showed the plane to a couple of pre-qualified people over the next couple of days, had a pre-buy on Thursday and closed/money in the bank on Friday. Granted, they won't all be this smooth, but there is no reason why a competent individual can't do as good or better job than a broker.
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It couldn't go smoother than that congratulations. The market for 172s (assuming recent sale) alone is probably reason enough not to start with a broker. As one moves up through high performance / complex platforms and the associated prices it starts to look a lot different, especially from a buyer's perspective.
 
dbahn said:
I'm comfortable sharing that but I will need to dig those up, and I think it can shoot a coupled LPV approach but not sure I ever even tested that. Send me a PM if you have heard from me in a few days.
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Will do, thanks ! I've always thought it odd that invoices for annuals, major repairs and upgrades aren't considered to be part of or appropriate for log books. Seems they would be a major selling point in a well-maintained plane. But no-one seems very interested in that information besides myself. Lol.
 
Here's an UPDATE and question:

As I've posted on another thread, it turns out that I have a gliobastoma, which carries a bad prognosis and my selling of the C206 has become more "urgent". I've had a lot of inquiries via Facebook and have a bona fide offer of $225,000 for it as a quick deal, and my mechanic has offered to serve as a low cost "broker" of sorts, as I'm busy with evaluation and treatment of the tumor. He thinks that a reasnable deal under the circumstances. I've got photos (.jpeg) of all of the logs since new (no damage history), I've owned the plane for about 40 years, it has a mid-time (zero time Mattituck) engine, has always been hangared and has a Garmin panel upgrade and an annual in late January. The only real downside is the original seats and upholstery, but I figured it's better to have a new buyer have a choice of options for that upgrade and factor in that cost to a sale amount

I updated my web page, which I created years ago but not to sell the airplane, so I might still tweak that a little further. I don't necessrily plan to spend the proceeds but figure it will end up in my trust for the benefit of my wife and two children. Needless to say, I've also got a ton of stuff going on medically and with other estate maneuvering while I can do that.

Question:

Does someone here with some experience in this belive that I'm foolish for going ahead with this sale? There is no deposit or contract yet and I've told the prospective buyer that it might work but that I'm still thinking about it, which I am or I wouldn't be writing this post. ;)

Thanks for any knowledgeable advice. I hate to see it go . . .

246VT03.jpg
 
I haven’t seen it or dug into detail, but an interior discount worst case to me would be $15k. That’s an opinion based on my now 5-10 year old research.

Here’s my take - I’ve sold things at a discount when I’ve wanted to convert to cash quickly, or not mess around - like a 15 day close and cash offer on some real-estate. Nothing wrong with that. Consider the dollar amount you think you’re leaving on the table and whether it would have been worth the time and hassle to get top dollar. For me it wasn’t. Other times it was.

Nice looking bird by the way!

I wish you well, POA friend.

Additional: if you’re discounting it, make it more hassle free by selling as-is. Buyer deals with any fixes. Use an escrow agent, refundable deposit if buyer doesn’t like it, limited inspection period, and a contract.
 
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What I see TODAY around our field is that good planes sell quickly and with no advertising or falderol(sp?). If it’s a good plane, word of mouth will probably bring a buyer quickly. If there is a clear title, AND you trust the buyers payment method, all it takes is to fill out a registration form and send it to the FAA with $5.00 I think it is.

My first plane I bought from an individual and AOPA did the paperwork at a noticeable cost. My second plane I bought through a broker who charged monies from myself and the seller. When I sold that plane we filled out a registration card and sent it in with the few dollars. I bought the fourth plane the same way. I simply wrote a check and filled out the card. If it must be financed, I’m sure the procedure requires a Philadelphia lawyer to work through.
 
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Three thoughts:

1) If you don't get the airplane sold while you're alive, your estate will sell it and the trustee/administrator likely won't obsess over trying to extract top dollar or any other detail that might matter to you. They will just want it gone and the associated expenses stopped.

2) As a percentage of your net worth, how much is 15-20% of an estimated sales price? In the grand scheme of things, will it really matter? What is that 15-20% spread over four decades of enjoyment?

3) If you have a legitimate prospective buyer, just get it sold you'll be doing your family a BIG favor. I'm saying this as someone who has been in the position to have to liquidate a couple of estates.

I don't think you're foolish at all to get it sold.

If the sale falls through, get recommendations and use a reputable broker. Save yourself and your family the aggravation. An elderly friend did this and was quite pleased with how the sale was handled.
 
What size Yamaha is that? A 50 or 90?
 
Walboy said:
Three thoughts:

1) If you don't get the airplane sold while you're alive, your estate will sell it and the trustee/administrator likely won't obsess over trying to extract top dollar or any other detail that might matter to you. They will just want it gone and the associated expenses stopped.

2) As a percentage of your net worth, how much is 15-20% of an estimated sales price? In the grand scheme of things, will it really matter? What is that 15-20% spread over four decades of enjoyment?

3) If you have a legitimate prospective buyer, just get it sold you'll be doing your family a BIG favor. I'm saying this as someone who has been in the position to have to liquidate a couple of estates.

I don't think you're foolish at all to get it sold.

If the sale falls through, get recommendations and use a reputable broker. Save yourself and your family the aggravation. An elderly friend did this and was quite pleased with how the sale was handled.
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Thanks. All of those thoughts have been on my mind. One hooker is capital gains, largely due to inflation even though we also made substantial capital improvements. But even the capital gain isn't all that much money. Sadly the perfect sale would be to have everything set to go and have my estate dot the last "i" and cross the last "t". To your point #2, I've got so much other stuff going on medically and financially that just getting stuff out of the way has great appeal to me.
 
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Mikey52 said:
What size Yamaha is that? A 50 or 90?
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Haha. It's 225 and has ample power to cruise at interstate speed with both my wife and me. It's a wonderful machine in that respect and weighs less than the 250 Ducati that we took on our first long trip (to Alaska). Loaded in the airplane with all sorts of other baggage we were 300 or more pounds under gross weight.
 
dbahn said:
I don't necessrily plan to spend the proceeds but figure it will end up in my trust for the benefit of my wife and two children.
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The only thing that would make me question a quick sale is whether any of your heirs might want to have the plane and keep flying it. If that's not a consideration, then certainly go ahead with the sale and save them the trouble of trying to sell it themselves.

Not the same as an airplane, of course, but I do have my dad's old F150 and I use it for hunting and fishing. I think of dad every time I drive it, I taught my son to drive in it, and that old truck will probably stay in the family. I imagine your family might have some fond memories of your plane.
 
Good advice, but none of the heirs will fly it and it's not of much real sentimental value. I've made an effort to keep it from sitting unused, but that may not happen if it's in the estate for very long
 
dbahn said:
Thanks. All of those thoughts have been on my mind. One hooker is capital gains, largely due to inflation even though we also made substantial capital improvements. Sadly the perfect sale would be to have everything set to go and have my estate dot the last "i" and cross the last "t". To your point #2, I've got so much other stuff going on medically and financially that just getting stuff out of the way has great appeal to me.
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This is a big deal. I would strongly suggest you speak to a tax advisor or estate-planning attorney before you sell. There's definitely a chance that your family would be better off inheriting the plane. The difference might be enough for them to pay a broker to get top dollar. OTOH, if you could sell it that quick, so could they.
 
Lindberg said:
This is a big deal. I would strongly suggest you speak to a tax advisor or estate-planning attorney before you sell. There's definitely a chance that your family would be better off inheriting the plane. The difference might be enough for them to pay a broker to get top dollar. OTOH, if you could sell it that quick, so could they.
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My daughter is an accountant with a law degree (although she's not allowed to combine them professionally without additional credentials). That's been a big help to me in this process so far.
 
Many of the brokers copy all aircraft records so they are available on

line. To me; that means the Pre Buy starts before traveling.
 
dbahn said:
My daughter is an accountant with a law degree (although she's not allowed to combine them professionally without additional credentials). That's been a big help to me in this process so far.
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Speaking as someone with a law degree who knows lots of accountants, I'm certain that she will help you tremendously, but if this isn't her specialty, you might still want to email a specialist (or maybe she has friends who are helping as well). I would, and have, give the same advice to my mom when she needs advice from a different specialist.
 
Lindberg said:
Speaking as someone with a law degree who knows lots of accountants, I'm certain that she will help you tremendously, but if this isn't her specialty, you might still want to email a specialist (or maybe she has friends who are helping as well). I would, and have, give the same advice to my mom when she needs advice from a different specialist.
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What special tax considerations are there besides capital gains vs step up in basis?

He’s already said the capital gain wouldn’t be much. If it were me, I wouldn’t let the tax tail wag the dog in an airplane sale. Get it sold.

What might be worth looking into is how the plane is titled with the FAA and the hoops to jump through and delays that your estate might have to deal with if the OP passes before it’s sold. I would assume that’s been thought through in an estate plan which varies from state to state but a good time to verify it’s correct.
 
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