President Obama's free 2 Year Community College law.

FloridaPilot said:
If there are any moderators here I wouldn't mind if this post gets deleted.

It wasn't my intention at all to start a whole political debate on this forum but I did and therefore I'm sorry. I should've known from previous message boards in the past that people bring up political agendas without the subject having ANYTHING to do with politics. I should've known that anything remotely close to politics would bring out the worst and the ignorance out in people.

I will not bring up anything close to politics on these message boards...ever! Flying is more fun to discuss.


Thank you

Florida Pilot
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I don't think you can reasonably expect to post anything highlighting action taken by the Big O without it getting political.

Like him or not, the man is simply way too polarizing.
 
FloridaPilot said:
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/barack-obama-free-community-college-114094.html

I'm NOT posting this because I want a political stirrup here at POA so please don't post that here. (No posts based on your political agenda)

I would like to talk about how that would benefit learning how to fly for people that want to get into aviation. It's for everyone so if you wanted to change careers you can do just that at any age.

What do you guys think?
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I think it's impossible to keep politics out of a discussion of a purely political proposal.
 
mercurial said:
Making it free will just cause this effect to be even stronger and will make it hard to get classes because registration will be even more impacted by losers who attend for the first month, then drop out.
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Having not read the full text of the proposal, I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage (as is everybody in this thread). HOWEVER, if there is not a provision that to get the "free" college by REFUNDING the fees/tuition if the student completes the course with a C or better, then I agree that the proposal is without merit.

Addressing the "grade inflation" I am here to tell you that the administration has absolutely no way to influence how I or any other teacher grade. Obviously, some of us grade hard and some easier. Thus has it been since Socrates. However, the first time I am given the choice of the administration forcing me to give a better grade to a student or lose my job there is going to be a discrimination lawsuit settlement that will keep me fat, dumb, and happy all the rest of my years on your tax dollars.

Jim
 
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And the average grade becomes a C+:lol: Just another perverse incentive for grade inflation/dumbing down the whole planet. Where do you teach that you believe there is no grade inflation?
weirdjim said:
Having not read the full text of the proposal, I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage (as is everybody in this thread). HOWEVER, if there is not a provision that to get the "free" college by REFUNDING the fees/tuition if the student completes the course with a C or better, then I agree that the proposal is without merit.

Addressing the "grade inflation" I am here to tell you that the administration has absolutely no way to influence how I or any other teacher grade. Obviously, some of us grade hard and some easier. Thus has it been since Socrates. However, the first time I am given the choice of the administration forcing me to give a better grade to a student or lose my job there is going to be a discrimination lawsuit settlement that will keep me fat, dumb, and happy all the rest of my years on your tax dollars.

Jim
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ClimbnSink said:
And the average grade becomes a C+:lol: Just another perverse incentive for grade inflation/dumbing down the whole planet.

Your logic is what I would expect of a C+ student. Or didn't you read what I wrote? :nono:


Where do you teach that you believe there is no grade inflation?

Sierra Community College, campuses in Rocklin, Grass Valley, and Truckee. What difference does it make?
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.....
 
Your logic is what I would expect of a C+ student. Or didn't you read what I wrote? :nono:


Where do you teach that you believe there is no grade inflation?

Sierra Community College, campuses in Rocklin, Grass Valley, and Truckee. What difference does it make?


It is laughable that you think your institution is immune to grade inflation and social passing. Course I was a C student from the holy grail of grade inflation.:lol:
 
Fearless Tower said:
...Like him or not, the man is simply way too polarizing.
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I'm fairly apolitical, didn't vote for Obama and honestly I don't feel "polarized". I will have to admit however that I have never in my life before seen the likes of the past six years where a major cable "news" channel does absolutely nothing but trash the elected President 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I mean really, tell me they don't do that.
 
Cable news was so nice to the prior president? All news is a joke anyway. Know what you need for your job and hobbies. By consuming news you will only know and think what they want you to know and think.
 
Bush took his licks but nothing like this, it's unprecedented and everyone knows that.
 
weirdjim said:
Addressing the "grade inflation" I am here to tell you that the administration has absolutely no way to influence how I or any other teacher grade. Obviously, some of us grade hard and some easier. Thus has it been since Socrates. However, the first time I am given the choice of the administration forcing me to give a better grade to a student or lose my job there is going to be a discrimination lawsuit settlement that will keep me fat, dumb, and happy all the rest of my years on your tax dollars.

Jim
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And there's probably 3:1 more instructors who do not have your scruples, who'll give higher grades to make sure the money flows to their company, ahem... school. Especially if the school makes them feel like their job is on the bubble if they don't. There are plenty of off the record subtle ways to do that.

So your actions, while noble, won't mean squat to anyone other than you and your students, which I applaud you for. Your students will decide for themselves if they want to take your classes or the ones from the easy instructors. That's been going on as long as I've been alive. Ask any dumb jock who wants to keep playing ball. (And no, not all jocks are dumb. But I room-mated with two who were. They had more complex systems of figuring out how to pass without working at studying than could be believed. In fact, they studied that harder than the academics.)

But, it still won't change the overall outcome.
 
Silvaire said:
Bush took his licks but nothing like this, it's unprecedented and everyone knows that.
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You are biased and watching too much TV. Victim card is hitting its credit limit.
 
Silvaire said:
I'm fairly apolitical, didn't vote for Obama and honestly I don't feel "polarized". I will have to admit however that I have never in my life before seen the likes of the past six years where a major cable "news" channel does absolutely nothing but trash the elected President 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I mean really, tell me they don't do that.
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First off, I do not get my news from the cable news network you speak of. I have a brain and can filter the media bias out on my own.

I get my news feeds from more liberal sources and can still see the polarization happening. In fairness, it wasn't much different with W. But that is the irony. BHO campaigned on a 'Bush is Bad' platform and has done the same things he accused W of for his whole presidency. You don't have to follow the Tea Party of Fox News to see that.

And to claim that trash talking the president 24/7 is something new is absurd. W was trash talked by the MSM daily.
 
As a former educator, i'd like to chime in. However, this is going to end up in the spin zone. For at least the past decade, administrations (GOP and Dem) have stressed that K-12 education should prepare students to be college ready. All the standards, and NCLB have stressed this. However, as students graduated from high school ready for college, many have found they could not AFFORD college. When i went to college (late 60's), community colleges were nearly free and state colleges/universities were quite affordable. Now, though, only the affluent can afford to send their children to college and community colleges (at least in California) have become much more expensive. The end result is that we've created a double standard. Prepare students for college and then keep them from attending because of poor funding by the state.

Frankly, i'm a bit tired of non-educators that think they know best about how to educate students.
 
bbridges51 said:
Frankly, i'm a bit tired of non-educators that think they know best about how to educate students.
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And everyone else is tired of the bloated corrupt industrial education complex. Maybe I should sell out and join you all, summers off would be sweet.
 
For five years I was the Manager of Education and then Director of a local Technical School that specialized in Electronics. A full time student would take 9 months to complete and a part-time student would take 16 months to complete.

Over that five year period we placed over 95% of our graduates. Not everyone needs college to be successful and have a fulfilling career.
 
EppyGA said:
For five years I was the Manager of Education and then Director of a local Technical School that specialized in Electronics. A full time student would take 9 months to complete and a part-time student would take 16 months to complete.

Over that five year period we placed over 95% of our graduates. Not everyone needs college to be successful and have a fulfilling career.
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I completely agree. When GOP and Dem administrations began stressing "college ready", they also devalued vocational education, which can be much more valuable and actually prepares students for jobs in the real world. this is another example of how politicians (and the media) determine education policy when they really know nothing about educating students.
 
Anyone else ready to admit that this thread is in the wrong place?
 
FloridaPilot said:
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/barack-obama-free-community-college-114094.html

I'm NOT posting this because I want a political stirrup here at POA so please don't post that here. (No posts based on your political agenda)

I would like to talk about how that would benefit learning how to fly for people that want to get into aviation. It's for everyone so if you wanted to change careers you can do just that at any age.

What do you guys think?
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One thing I've learned after helping put several kids through college is that you are either college material or you are not.

Never again will I try to shotgun someone through college. They better show me the scores and the aptitude and the want to.

There should not be a blanket "go to college" gift card for every kid on the taxpayers back. :nonod:
 
Silvaire said:
I'm fairly apolitical, didn't vote for Obama and honestly I don't feel "polarized". I will have to admit however that I have never in my life before seen the likes of the past six years where a major cable "news" channel does absolutely nothing but trash the elected President 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I mean really, tell me they don't do that.
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They don't do that. If you truly believe that they actually do that then you are not in any way apolitical.
 
I dunno. If there's a free CC program that allows me to learn to fly, I'm all for it. Just as long as it's an equal opportunity program which let ME into it as well. If you're going to give stuff away for free, then it needs to be done with equal protection under the law, right? Everyone treated the same, not some more equal than others.

After all - about 99% of the population cannot afford to learn to fly today. So if this law is targeted equally at all of them, then I'm for it. If it's targeted only at the really poor, then I'm against it as wage discrimination.
 
ClimbnSink said:
And the average grade becomes a C+:lol: Just another perverse incentive for grade inflation/dumbing down the whole planet. Where do you teach that you believe there is no grade inflation?
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A "C" has always been average going back a long ling time. A "B" grade is above average, and an "A" grade is exceptional. That's how its been since I was a kid (and the Earth was still cooling).

In most of my classes the average defines limiter between a C+ (on the high end of average) and a B- (on the low end of above average).

In a way this is all really silly. What scores I get depends on how I write the tests. I can write an exam on the material the students covered and involving nothing else that they cannot do for the life of them. I could easily write on on which everyone gets an A. The trick is to hit it in the middle somewhere.
 
bartmc said:
That won't be covered in "the plan". It's for students pursuing a degree at a 4 year institution for a degree program there.

You should get a refund on that $60K. Community College tuition is about $1000 per semester here.
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More than double that for us. I live in Medina County Ohio and have 3 people in my house attending community college.
 
bbridges51 said:
I completely agree. When GOP and Dem administrations began stressing "college ready", they also devalued vocational education, which can be much more valuable and actually prepares students for jobs in the real world. this is another example of how politicians (and the media) determine education policy when they really know nothing about educating students.
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The overwhelming emphasis on college as the only answer is a huge problem. Trades are desperate for new blood, good paying jobs in solid careers. In speaking with a high school guidance counselor about this, I asked why they did not counsel trades training instead of college for those students for whom college seemed a poorer choice.

The response? "I could not do that- the parents would accuse me of underestimating their child - or of race discrimination."

I don't know the answer to the problem, but if you want to know why so many jobs in the trades (good-paying jobs) are being held by immigrants, look at the very large numbers of chronically-unemployed youths.

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As for the proposal referenced as the thread topic, it may be a sound idea to call for free community college, but if it is to be done, it must not be done by the federal government.
 
That is the average of the students that finish. Take the average of all the people that start a CC class(at least the first year ones) and it will be lower then C. Until it gets political.
steingar said:
A "C" has always been average going back a long ling time. A "B" grade is above average, and an "A" grade is exceptional. That's how its been since I was a kid (and the Earth was still cooling).

In most of my classes the average defines limiter between a C+ (on the high end of average) and a B- (on the low end of above average).

In a way this is all really silly. What scores I get depends on how I write the tests. I can write an exam on the material the students covered and involving nothing else that they cannot do for the life of them. I could easily write on on which everyone gets an A. The trick is to hit it in the middle somewhere.
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I took my core classes at a community college to save on costs. In my micro and macroeconomics classes, the instructor was so impressed with the work that I did for the midterm and paper that he asked for permission to keep it and show his future students what to strive for.

Halfway through the class, as I ended up trying to help this woman and another lady, both middle aged, I realized that I was barking up the wrong tree. They were asking why a number becomes negative when it crosses the equals sign. The other woman actually told me that the / symbol and division itself did not exist when -she- was in school and that it was brand new.

On the final exam (which the instructor made himself) the questions included the names of the students in the class so that they would be more interesting and fun. I breezed through the questions including the optional extra credit one.

As the papers got handed in, one of the ladies screamed out in frustration and begged for more time. The extra credit question had her name in it and it had something to do with taxes from the book. She, in turn, brought in all her tax paperwork that she could find and was trying to do the problem with her real life paperwork. She owned a hair salon.
 
More important than 2 years of college, I need some heat in the Winter and a little food. While we're at it, I'll take a cell phone and a set of wheels. It's 'free' anyway?

We're about 18 TRILLION in the hole right now, in case anyone forgot.
 
steingar said:
A "C" has always been average going back a long ling time. A "B" grade is above average, and an "A" grade is exceptional. That's how its been since I was a kid (and the Earth was still cooling).



In most of my classes the average defines limiter between a C+ (on the high end of average) and a B- (on the low end of above average).



In a way this is all really silly. What scores I get depends on how I write the tests. I can write an exam on the material the students covered and involving nothing else that they cannot do for the life of them. I could easily write on on which everyone gets an A. The trick is to hit it in the middle somewhere.
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You haven't talked to many teachers nor seen the creative grading methods utilized these days, have you? A through F might hurt someone's feelings and make them cry, don't you know?
 
ChrisK said:
More than double that for us. I live in Medina County Ohio and have 3 people in my house attending community college.
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Which is amazing. I went to Mississippi State from 1998 to 2003, obtained 2 engineering degrees and my tuition was 900 bucks a semester.

just looked MSU is now $3,570 per Semester. Quite an increase over the past 12 years.
 
bartmc said:
Which is amazing. I went to Mississippi State from 1998 to 2003, obtained 2 engineering degrees and my tuition was 900 bucks a semester.

just looked MSU is now $3,570 per Semester. Quite an increase over the past 12 years.
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Cause and effect.

It used to be that college tuition and fees at public institutions was low enough that most students could (with careful planning and hard work) attend without wealth and while working (I did).

Now, as a direct result of the ready availability of federally-guaranteed student loans, colleges at all levels have simply increased their costs, increases which have occurred at a vastly-greater rate than the putative rate of inflation.
 
I guess it has become unfashionable to work your way through college?

In my case the GI bill, ROTC, pell, research grants, 2-3 jobs, got it done without any debt. Graduate school was a different story.

In retrospect the process of doing that was more valuable than what I learned.
 
Cost has outstripped what crap jobs pay. The numbers don't work anymore for paying your wah through school with the jobs available. Old people are clueless about how badly they screwed the country.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I guess it has become unfashionable to work your way through college?

In my case the GI bill, ROTC, pell, research grants, 2-3 jobs, got it done without any debt. Graduate school was a different story.

In retrospect the process of doing that was more valuable than what I learned.
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Yep.

The cultural shift away from working through, and over to "borrowing through" (with the mandatory assistance of Uncle Sugar) has been completed. Rather than working to make education available to students through careful control of cost, colleges and universities now aggressively work to place students with lenders. Do we see a potential conflict of interest?

Ironic result: a new underclass, people perpetually saddled with debt (student loan debt), at a fundamental disadvantage in comparison to those relative few who, by virtue of family wealth, could manage to get through without debt. NB: Student Loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

When touring colleges, I was amazed at the scale of palatial improvements extant on campuses, now.
 
SCCutler said:
Yep.

The cultural shift away from working through, and over to "borrowing through" (with the mandatory assistance of Uncle Sugar) has been completed. Rather than working to make education available to students through careful control of cost, colleges and universities now aggressively work to place students with lenders. Do we see a potential conflict of interest?

Ironic result: a new underclass, people perpetually saddled with debt (student loan debt), at a fundamental disadvantage in comparison to those relative few who, by virtue of family wealth, could manage to get through without debt. NB: Student Loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

When touring colleges, I was amazed at the scale of palatial improvements extant on campuses, now.
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I am really torn watching parents in my neighborhood striving to save up a couple of hundred thousand so their kid can party till dawn for five years and end up with a liberal arts degree.

I understand the parents natural motivation to help their kids. The question is, is it really helping them?
 
Alexb2000 said:
I am really torn watching parents in my neighborhood striving to save up a couple of hundred thousand so their kid can party till dawn for five years and end up with a liberal arts degree.

I understand the parents natural motivation to help their kids. The question is, is it really helping them?
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Excellent question.

When I went to college, I partied too much, so my parents cut off my money (not that they had that much to begin with). So, I started working and supporting myself, and when I re-started college, I was (amazingly enough, now that I was on the hook for it) much more motivated.

the way the system is stacked now, not sure whether that could work.
 
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