Preflight and runup... every time?

[MuseChaser]

}

Pretty much no one checks the mags at shutdown. .

Guess I must be pretty much no one. I always check my mags at shutdown. It's a smart, safe thing to do to protect others....sort of like wearing a mask.... right?

 

[Daleandee]

Guess I must be pretty much no one. I always check my mags at shutdown.

Make that two no ones. I don't have conventional mag ignitions but I do cycle through both ignition systems before shut down to make sure they work when they should and don't when they should not.

 

[asicer]

Make that two no ones. I don't have conventional mag ignitions but I do cycle through both ignition systems before shut down to make sure they work when they should and don't when they should not.

Me three, except from time to time I've been known to do the grounding check while rolling (wide ramp, lots of space in front of me, nothing to hit, engine at idle, etc).

 

[denverpilot]

Do the same thing, the same way, every time.
You can skip steps and get away with it ... until you can’t.

Unless you’re doing it wrong every time.

 

[Craig]

Multiple flights in a day.... Preflight- ThruFlight or QuickTurn (as appropriate)- Postflight.

A Thruflight is done where the a/c is shut down and serviced with a long time period before a restart. It’s an abreviated preflight with only external visual checks.

QuickTurn is basically a shut down for service and pilot break, with a restart within a few minutes.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My radios crapped out on the second leg of my first solo cross country. I still remember circling about 10 miles out from my next destination, a towered airport, reaching under the panel and giggling wires in a futile effort to get it to work.

Relevance to this topic? As I circled, I remember thinking, "in an airplane you can't just pull over." So yes, I at least do an abbreviated fluids, controls, general condition preflight and runup every time. (Besides, runups aren't really optional at high density altitudes, so my habit of doing it was galvanized by 20 years in Colorado.)

An extra five minutes is pretty cheap insurance.

 

[PaulS]

Me three, except from time to time I've been known to do the grounding check while rolling (wide ramp, lots of space in front of me, nothing to hit, engine at idle, etc).

Four

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Guess I must be pretty much no one. I always check my mags at shutdown. It's a smart, safe thing to do to protect others....sort of like wearing a mask.... right?

I've flown with many CFI's. Never saw one do a mag check before shutdown. Not once. I've flown with lots of guys who are A&P's. Never seen one do a mag check before shutdown. Not once. I've flown with countless professional pilots. Same, never seen one of them do it, not once. Its great that you a few others here do it every time. That's wonderful.

And maybe that's the norm and 99% of all pilots do it and it just so happens that I've only ever known and flown with the 1% who don't. Finally I get to be a 1%er. Lucky me.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

It can take 20 minutes after shutdown before all the oil to drip back to the pan on some motors

Last few drops, or quarts?

 

[MuseChaser]

I've flown with many CFI's. Never saw one do a mag check before shutdown. Not once. I've flown with lots of guys who are A&P's. Never seen one do a mag check before shutdown. Not once. I've flown with countless professional pilots. Same, never seen one of them do it, not once. Its great that you a few others here do it every time. That's wonderful.

And maybe that's the norm and 99% of all pilots do it and it just so happens that I've only ever known and flown with the 1% who don't. Finally I get to be a 1%er. Lucky me.

No reason not to believe you, but I'm surprised. My CFI taught me to always do a mag check before shutdown, I know he does one, and am reasonably certain I'm not the only one he's taught to do one, so it stands to reason that all of his students (and there are many) also do mag checks. Lots of mag checking prior to shutdown in our area.

 

[kaiser]

First flight is full checklist which is a very detailed inspection. Subsequent flights that day are abbreviated. Both checklists include checking oil/fuel etc.

Once I made it to the hold-short line (pretty far from parking) and I realized I didn’t check the oil. It wasn’t my first flight of the day but I knew the engine would quit if I didn’t check. I taxied back and checked... 6.5 qts

I always always do run ups.

 

[PaulS]

I've flown with many CFI's. Never saw one do a mag check before shutdown. Not once. I've flown with lots of guys who are A&P's. Never seen one do a mag check before shutdown. Not once. I've flown with countless professional pilots. Same, never seen one of them do it, not once. Its great that you a few others here do it every time. That's wonderful.

And maybe that's the norm and 99% of all pilots do it and it just so happens that I've only ever known and flown with the 1% who don't. Finally I get to be a 1%er. Lucky me.

It's pretty new to me, I've been doing it for about 2 years now, I believe it's part of the Cirrus SOP, but I was asked to do it by the instructors at the place whose planes I fly.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I've flown with many CFI's. Never saw one do a mag check before shutdown. Not once. I've flown with lots of guys who are A&P's. Never seen one do a mag check before shutdown. Not once. I've flown with countless professional pilots. Same, never seen one of them do it, not once. Its great that you a few others here do it every time. That's wonderful.

And maybe that's the norm and 99% of all pilots do it and it just so happens that I've only ever known and flown with the 1% who don't. Finally I get to be a 1%er. Lucky me.

I taught it as an instructor. And sometimes, when we had the Citabrias (and old Champ) that all have the ignition switches up on the left side above the window where both pilots could reach them, I'd find them both left on. Pilots shortcutting the shutdown checklist could get someone killed.

And as a mechanic I very often found P-leads frayed to the point that only a couple of strands were still connected. Another flight or three would finish them. This stuff is far more common than most pilots think. I also found many alternator wires ready to break. Walkaround annuals...

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Last few drops, or quarts?

Its an unknown and that was my point. All you know is not all the oil is there. It might just be a few drops, but you don't really know. So if you check it, its low, what have you learned? Nothing meaningful except that you have to wait for it all to settle and measure it again. So why not just wait before checking it the first time? And as I've said before if its going to be low enough to matter, you'll know it before you ever get near the dipstick because the plane will be wearing it.

 

[PaulS]

And as I've said before if its going to be low enough to matter, you'll know it before you ever get near the dipstick because the plane will be wearing it.

I disagree with this statement, that's why I check it. YMMV

 

[chemgeek]

Its an unknown and that was my point. All you know is not all the oil is there. It might just be a few drops, but you don't really know. So if you check it, its low, what have you learned? Nothing meaningful except that you have to wait for it all to settle and measure it again. So why not just wait before checking it the first time? And as I've said before if its going to be low enough to matter, you'll know it before you ever get near the dipstick because the plane will be wearing it.

This is easy enough to figure out. Check the oil before your flight, check it again after flying and a short delay. The difference is your fudge factor. It's going to be no more than a quart, typically. I will add oil to my O-320 if below 6 qt cold, 5 qt hot (8 qt capacity in an engine that is happy with 7 qt). What you are looking for is sufficient oil for safe operation, and a larger than expected difference from the last check. Oil leaks can sometimes be frustrating to identify and locate, but they will show up as unusual oil level changes. I recently had an improperly torqued sump screen plug crush gasket which was a case in point. The oil was simply seeping out slowly and blowing out the bottom of the cowling with little trace, but the unusual decrease in oil level was out of character. Not a giant leak, but a consumption in hours per quart that was much higher than normal. Groping around the engine and eventually dropping the cowling identified the oil seep, which was easily fixed.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

I disagree with this statement, that's why I check it. YMMV

My opinion on it is based on my own experience. I've had several instances where the oil leaks were enough to matter before considering further flight. In every case, the plane was wearing enough oil to make it clear there was a problem before I ever got near the dipstick. If I ever experience an oil leak that's big enough to matter where the plane isn't wearing oil, I will happily change my opinion.

 

[David235]

So I totally understand the desire to check oil even after only shutting for 5 minutes. But I don't understand what doing so is going to show you that you don't already know.

I'm fine if you don't check your oil level before every flight... but I will continue to do so if for no other reason than peace of mind. YMMV.

 

[jaymark6655]

If the engine shuts down, I dip the tanks and do a full runup on restart. Depending on how long it sits and how long I flew before hand, I check the oil. If I have left the airport or its been more than an hour, full walk around. Usually I might do a quick walk around to make sure nothing fell off if I have been out of sight of the plane, basically hey nothing looks funny and all doors are latched type of thing. In the military we had a preflight done early, then pilots went into brief. Maintenance told a mechanic wrong tail number for a job and the controls were disconnected on the preflighted bird and then everything closed up for a lunch break. Mistake discovered while starting the aircraft.

Edit - I think I am going to add mag check to my shutdown checklist. It isn't on official one, but sounds like a good idea.

 

[CharlieD3]

Just ran into a guy that rarely or never checks carb heat on run-up... Flying a Cherokee 6 or derivative. Doesn't want "unfiltered air" to cause rust (in his exhaust)...

Claims no incidents in PA32s due to icing because the carb sits on the oil pan, and it's always hot.

But, it's in the POH to check it on run-up...

To each his own, I guess...

 

[weilke]

If you are really familiar with a plane, one can argue that a static run-up doesn't give you information you couldn't gather during the takeoff roll. If your 4 cylinder with a FP prop gives you 2450rpm on intial roll and now it gives you 2200 and the thing doesn't accelerate you know something is off.
Some of the anti-run up argument is that it can chew up the prop and doesn't add much information that you can't gather in flight. If my mag died in the air, I would know because EGTs would be off in cruise. If a p-lead broke, I will pick it up at the grounding check prior to shutdown. Now if the lead or the mag break while the plane is parked in the hangar, omitting the customary run up may cause me to miss that unlikely occurrence.

 

[CharlieD3]

So, let's say you don't do a static run up. It's a high DA day. TO roll out is a tad shy in RPMs, but okay... Just. And you attribute it to not high enough DA to require leaning on the ground roll, but maybe you should. vr, rotate and airborne. Just at the end of the runway under you, engine quits.. You "land" off airport. There is an investigation. The student who called someone out for not actually being clear the runway when he called it, happened to see your departure, from the tiedown pad, to the scene of the incident.. he reports to the investigator that you did not do a static run-up.....

What sayeth the FAAther, FSDO, NTSB?

What does your insurance carrier do?

Just askin', really... I'd like to know how that might play out.

 

[smv]

Go try to pay your rent, or worse yet your mortgage, by flying planes for a living and try to convince your boss that time ISN'T money and let me know how it works out for you.

I have been in that position. I am no longer in that position and flying more now than then. Best thing ever was walking out that door for the last time. Someone will get killed in that organization and although it will be the fault of the PIC, it will be caused by purse string clutcher. You cannot allow the holders of the purse strings to dictate your actions as PIC.

 

[smv]

Guess I must be pretty much no one. I always check my mags at shutdown. It's a smart, safe thing to do to protect others....sort of like wearing a mask.... right?

Make that two no ones. I don't have conventional mag ignitions but I do cycle through both ignition systems before shut down to make sure they work when they should and don't when they should not.

Me three, except from time to time I've been known to do the grounding check while rolling (wide ramp, lots of space in front of me, nothing to hit, engine at idle, etc).

Four

I was never taught to do it, but it is on the checklists for the airplanes I instruct in now.

Although having students "rip" through the positions four or five times a day is not such a good idea either. I have seen some folks slam the key to "OFF" then back to "BOTH" like they were trying to start a Model A. Do that very long and you will be buying new ignition switches rather regularly.

As with everything else I teach "smooth and easy" techniques. I remind (most of) them that the airplane is older than they are and it needs to be treated gently. Count, out loud, two slow clicks to the left. Pause for a moment to allow the engine to settle in. THEN flick it off just long enough to hear the engine start to slow down and return it one click to the right. Then gently count, out loud, two more clicks to the right and finish the Shut Down checklist.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

So, let's say you don't do a static run up. It's a high DA day. TO roll out is a tad shy in RPMs, but okay... Just. And you attribute it to not high enough DA to require leaning on the ground roll, but maybe you should. vr, rotate and airborne. Just at the end of the runway under you, engine quits.. You "land" off airport. There is an investigation. The student who called someone out for not actually being clear the runway when he called it, happened to see your departure, from the tiedown pad, to the scene of the incident.. he reports to the investigator that you did not do a static run-up.....

What sayeth the FAAther, FSDO, NTSB?

What does your insurance carrier do?

Just askin', really... I'd like to know how that might play out.

I've never seen an insurance policy nor an FAA regulation that specifically required a runup be preformed before every takeoff.

 

[CharlieD3]

I've never seen an insurance policy nor an FAA regulation that specifically required a runup be preformed before every takeoff.

I'll certainly check the regs... This statement in the PHAK leads me to believe it might be a reg....:

"The pilot must ensure that the engine, propeller, and associated systems are functioning properly prior to operation."

 

[Daleandee]

You cannot allow the holders of the purse strings to dictate your actions as PIC.

 

[Daleandee]

Oil leaks can sometimes be frustrating to identify and locate, but they will show up as unusual oil level changes.

Some years ago after doing some engine work during the inspection I found traces of oil after the test flight. Cleaned it off, tightened the things I thought might be leaking and went again. More oil. This went on for three or four test flights. Another pilot said, "don't worry about it as you won't lose a quart in 20 hours." But I was concerned. If I knew for certain where the leak was it would have been different. It wasn't until I discovered I had damaged the oil cooler that I found the source of the leak. Replacement cooler took care of that. My point is that if I would have taken my friends advice I may have suffered a complete failure of the cooler in flight. So a "little oil leak" could become a major deal. Find them and fix them. I do know that many of these old air cooled engines are gonna seep a bit of oil out of the crevices now and again ...

 

[chemgeek]

It seems like there are innumerable ways to gradually lose oil from an aircraft engine: (1) hardened pushrod seals, (2) rocker box drainback tubes, (3) rocker gaskets, (4) leaky quick drains, (5) improperly torqued oil sump screen drains, (6) loosened dipstick tube, etc., etc. Sometimes the first hint you get, other than a random mysterious drip here and there, is unusual oil consumption. These little leaks are often slow until they suddenly aren't.

 

[MuseChaser]

I've never seen an insurance policy nor an FAA regulation that specifically required a runup be preformed before every takeoff.

If I'm interpreting your comment correctly, you are suggesting that regulation should be the reason for performing a certain action, rather than common sense and personal responsibility. That's the crux of pretty much every disagreement these days. If I've interpreted your post incorrectly, that's on me I guess. If not, I couldn't disagree more strongly.

 

[cgrab]

If no one else is around while fueling I will check for water in the tanks and check the fuel level then do a mag check before taking the runway. If I leave the plane alone I'll do a full walk around.

 

[RonP]

Anyone care to list a reason (other than time) for not doing a complete pre-flight before every flight regardless of how long between shutdown and the next flight?

 

[MuseChaser]

Anyone care to list a reason (other than time) for not doing a complete pre-flight before every flight regardless of how long between shutdown and the next flight?

If time is ever a reason not to do something safety-related, there's already a problem .... No?

 

[Bob Noel]

Anyone care to list a reason (other than time) for not doing a complete pre-flight before every flight regardless of how long between shutdown and the next flight?

playing devil's advocate:

If the pilot can be reasonably sure that nothing has broken.

on the flip side: Do things break more often when an airplane is sitting or when an airplane is running?

 

[Kevin Eggert]

I've flown with many CFI's. Never saw one do a mag check before shutdown. Not once. I've flown with lots of guys who are A&P's. Never seen one do a mag check before shutdown. Not once. I've flown with countless professional pilots. Same, never seen one of them do it, not once. Its great that you a few others here do it every time. That's wonderful.

And maybe that's the norm and 99% of all pilots do it and it just so happens that I've only ever known and flown with the 1% who don't. Finally I get to be a 1%er. Lucky me.

I'm with you on this. NEVER have I ever flown with a CFI, commercial pilot, or PPL buddies of mine who have done a post flight mag check. I don't think I've ever even even read about such a thing until this thread mentioned it.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Anyone care to list a reason (other than time) for not doing a complete pre-flight before every flight regardless of how long between shutdown and the next flight?

Do you limit your flights to a certain time, after all if something can break in 30 minutes, should you not limit all your flights to 15 minutes?
I religiously sump fuel and will do full preflight if it’s been out of my sight.
I also do post flight inspections, especially looking for fuel/oil leaks.
During flight, I constantly watch the engine monitor, if one of my mags dies, I’ll see it, so don’t need to do post flight mag checks.

 

[MuseChaser]

During flight, I constantly watch the engine monitor, if one of my mags dies, I’ll see it, so don’t need to do post flight mag checks.

That's not.what a pre-shutdown mag check is for.. we're not talking about checking to see if a mag is operating, we're checking the P-lead to make sure that it is grounding correctly and making the mag NOT able to operate with the ignition off so that, in the event someone moves the prop, the mag isn't live, causing an unexpected firing of the engine and killing someone.

 

[Salty]

By “mag check” at shutdown, I presume you folks mean turning them both off (switch it off) and verifying the engine stops. Because I don’t think checking each one separately proves they are both off when the switch is off.

 

[Bill]

By “mag check” at shutdown, I presume you folks mean turning them both off (switch it off) and verifying the engine stops. Because I don’t think checking each one separately proves they are both off when the switch is off.

Very briefly turn the key off, then back on. Just enough to verify ignition ceases. If you leave it off too long, you'll fill the muffler with air/fuel mixture, and have a nice big bang when you turn it back on.

 

[Salty]

Very briefly turn the key off, then back on. Just enough to verify ignition ceases. If you leave it off too long, you'll fill the muffler with air/fuel mixture, and have a nice big bang when you turn it back on.

Agreed. But when you say "mag check", I don't think of that procedure, I think of checking each mag independently, which doesn't make sense to me to do at shutdown.